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Article: Twins Sign 2B Jonathan Schoop

jonathan schoop.
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#161 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:13 PM

Here we go again.

When I think of any of these players, I don't think of Smith or Ryan, because they had less to do with the whole process than people want to accept. They virtually played replacement level roles, and that includes the process of negotiating with Sano's agent, which people falsely describe as this heroic, bold move by Smith. Ironically, both men deserve massive credit for other things, but not for acting as the spearhead in any of those signings.

Hmmm. Maybe I'm repeating myself. Oh well. ;)


Bosses are responsible for the productivity of those working under them.

I doubt Steve Jobs was personally on the line in the factory assembling iPhones, but nevertheless it was going to be his credit/blame if it prospered or failed. As it should be.

#162 Monkeypaws

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:22 PM

 

To me, Daniel Murphy is the only clear upgrade over Schoop. And 1)I’m not sure Murphy would be a regular at 2B, and 2)they could still sign him (2b/1B/DH). Of course, he’s more expensive than Schoop, and that extra money could go towards relievers, for example.

And the ever present question...why would he come to this team? Money is not a consideration for him.

 

Winning is. Top end free agents are rich beyond belief. They want rings, honors. 

 

People alway look at deals in retrospect and say, "why didn't we do that?" 

 

Well, the Twins are 3% of all the MLB teams. Other teams are trying just as hard. 

 

Free agents are looking at more than "pay me biggest money ever."

 

And other organizations have tempting prospects as well, who sometimes match up better in trades.

 

Tunnelvision....

 

Edited by Monkeypaws, 08 December 2018 - 07:23 PM.

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#163 spycake

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 08:17 AM

Thad Levine had an extended interview with Aaron Gleeman. Probably what you're seeing is in reference to quotations like these excerpts:


No GM is going to spell things out regarding clubhouse chemistry, particularly as pertains to individuals, but these words come as close as possible to laying it out.

Thanks for sharing, I hadn't seen that. (Although I had heard earlier speculation.)

I wonder how true it is, or how much Levine might simply be embracing an excuse that's a bit of a deflection of his own responsibilities. (Obviously he assembled the roster, but saying they struggled because of chemistry is a bit gentler than other GM job analysis.)

Also, FWIW, only Lynn and Duke were acquired as strictly one-year "mercenaries" last winter. Odorizzi had 2 years control through arb, Reed a 2 year guarantee, and Morrison and Rodney 2 years through team options.

And as far as current players who were "mercenaries" on expiring contracts, it was only Dozier, Escobar, and Mauer. (Erv had a team option too.) I doubt Mauer could be considered "mercenary" in any context, and by all accounts Escobar was beloved and offered an extension.

So this "mercenary" line of thinking seems like a convenient way of laying outsized blame on primarily two guys, Lynn and Dozier, when they're already out the door. Neither was great for the Twins in 2018, but this probably exaggerates their roles in our scuffles.

Edit to add: And of course, this offseason so far, they have added a 2 year guy in Cron and another 1 year mercenary in Schoop. And I guess by the earlier definition, Reed and Odorizzi join the expiring contract "mercenary" club, along with Gibson and Castro.

Edited by spycake, 09 December 2018 - 08:29 AM.


#164 birdwatcher

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 08:57 AM

 

Bosses are responsible for the productivity of those working under them.

I doubt Steve Jobs was personally on the line in the factory assembling iPhones, but nevertheless it was going to be his credit/blame if it prospered or failed. As it should be.

 

True, and this is my point. No one described Jobs as the guy who single-handedly wrote the code for the Mac. According to some legends, Billy Smith swam to the Dominican Republic, scoured the backroads, discovered the young, frail Miguel, handed him his first bat, and then coached and mentored him. Which actually has equal truth to the rest of the legend, which is that he single-handedly convinced Sano's handler to trust the organization and then negotiated his contract from start to finish as the kid's only champion and as the only one who recommended the organization pony up that dough.;)

Edited by birdwatcher, 09 December 2018 - 08:59 AM.


#165 USAFChief

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 09:06 AM

True, and this is my point. No one described Jobs as the guy who single-handedly wrote the code for the Mac. According to some legends, Billy Smith swam to the Dominican Republic, scoured the backroads, discovered the young, frail Miguel, handed him his first bat, and then coached and mentored him. Which actually has equal truth to the rest of the legend, which is that he single-handedly convinced Sano's handler to trust the organization and then negotiated his contract from start to finish as the kid's only champion and as the only one who recommended the organization pony up that dough. ;)


I dont think anyone has made that claim.

But I think I'm on fairly firm ground in stating Bill Smith had the final authority in signing Sano.

He was the GM.
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#166 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 09:11 AM

True, and this is my point. No one described Jobs as the guy who single-handedly wrote the code for the Mac. According to some legends, Billy Smith swam to the Dominican Republic, scoured the backroads, discovered the young, frail Miguel, handed him his first bat, and then coached and mentored him. Which actually has equal truth to the rest of the legend, which is that he single-handedly convinced Sano's handler to trust the organization and then negotiated his contract from start to finish as the kid's only champion and as the only one who recommended the organization pony up that dough.;)

If I recall, the guy representing Pittsburgh rep was working against Sano's interests behind the scenes, planting doubt about Sano's age, to scare off the rest of the MLB team reps. All while telling Sano he was his champion to his face. But the Twins and one other team stuck with Sano the whole way as Sano lost trust in signing with Pittsburgh.

#167 jorgenswest

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 09:17 AM

I wonder if there is any other place to discuss the stuff that happened before 2019 or maybe we need to start a discussion group called 2019 Minnesota Twins Talk.

Looking forward I think Schoop will help the 2019 team. Additionally, I think at least one of Gordon, Arraez or Lewis will be ready in 2020. In the best case, Schoop does well and wants to stay to the tune of a contract similar to the one Escobar received from the DBacks.

The void is a good left handed bat with both power and on base ability that will slot in at DH and play a little of a corner spot.
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#168 birdwatcher

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 09:23 AM

 

Thanks for sharing, I hadn't seen that. (Although I had heard earlier speculation.)

I wonder how true it is, or how much Levine might simply be embracing an excuse that's a bit of a deflection of his own responsibilities. (Obviously he assembled the roster, but saying they struggled because of chemistry is a bit gentler than other GM job analysis.)

Also, FWIW, only Lynn and Duke were acquired as strictly one-year "mercenaries" last winter. Odorizzi had 2 years control through arb, Reed a 2 year guarantee, and Morrison and Rodney 2 years through team options.

And as far as current players who were "mercenaries" on expiring contracts, it was only Dozier, Escobar, and Mauer. (Erv had a team option too.) I doubt Mauer could be considered "mercenary" in any context, and by all accounts Escobar was beloved and offered an extension.

So this "mercenary" line of thinking seems like a convenient way of laying outsized blame on primarily two guys, Lynn and Dozier, when they're already out the door. Neither was great for the Twins in 2018, but this probably exaggerates their roles in our scuffles.

Edit to add: And of course, this offseason so far, they have added a 2 year guy in Cron and another 1 year mercenary in Schoop. And I guess by the earlier definition, Reed and Odorizzi join the expiring contract "mercenary" club, along with Gibson and Castro.

 

 

My own read on this, spy, is not that Levine was deflecting their own part in it but simply acknowledging that they had more than one new guy that came in feeling victimized and therefore had a sour disposition towards being here. And that this was their mistake. He of course isn't going to name names. I can't cite specifics, but I got the impression that both Lynn and Morrison came in with a bit of a reputation for having "quirky" personalities, and it became evident, to me anyway, that Dozier was resentful underneath all his happy talk. Erv might come across as happy-go-lucky and a good team player, but he was selfish in the past, so I don't trust any characterization of him as a good clubhouse guy.

 

I don't concern myself with the whole "mercenary" thing. To me, the question is about feeling good about opportunity versus feeling victimized at having to settle for the better of a two crappy choices like Lynn and Morrison might have done.

Edited by birdwatcher, 09 December 2018 - 09:24 AM.


#169 ewen21

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 09:44 AM

 

I can't cite specifics, but I got the impression that both Lynn and Morrison came in with a bit of a reputation for having "quirky" personalities, and it became evident, to me anyway, that Dozier was resentful underneath all his happy talk. Erv might come across as happy-go-lucky and a good team player, but he was selfish in the past, so I don't trust any characterization of him as a good clubhouse guy.

 

 

As a person who follows this team daily and obsessively, I have drawn similar conclusions about these players.The idea that no one can draw these types of conclusions that "questions a player's character" has been repeated here many times.I do not understand it all.We have all observed and read everything we can about these guys.How is it that NOTHING can be gleaned from it?  


#170 TheLeviathan

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 10:14 AM

 

I dont think anyone has made that claim.
 

 

Well said.Honestly....that argument is so tiresome.People refer to the actions under a GM as short-hand.Trying to dissect that to make a silly point is so...damn...tiresome.

 

Every single transaction a GM makes has layers of underlings deeply involved.Just let posters make short-hand comments without trying to start a thing every time.(Especially since we only seem to see this when the name Bill Smith appears)

 

Schoop might have been the brainchild of some scout or the hitting coach or someone other than Levine.But, good or bad, we'll assign the responsibility to Levine.  

Edited by TheLeviathan, 09 December 2018 - 10:15 AM.

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#171 ashburyjohn

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 10:30 AM

Thanks for sharing, I hadn't seen that. (Although I had heard earlier speculation.)

I wonder how true it is, or how much Levine might simply be embracing an excuse that's a bit of a deflection of his own responsibilities....

Whether his view is insightful or not, I don't think it was a very smart line of discussion to take in a public way, on various levels. Throwing anyone under the bus seems to violate Public Relations 101. Don't name names. Don't use terms like mercenary. Don't burn bridges. Just say roster construction is not an exact science, and move on. I know our GM is considered a whiz kid but he's 47 - I expected better sense than that. And it's not even a useful angle, because 1-year/expiring contracts are a necessary part of most plans anyway; the 2018 Red Sox had a few and it didn't visibly hurt them - and as you pointed out, we just acquired one.

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#172 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 11:30 AM

Levine's candidness is appreciated by some of us who were stunned and caught completely off guard by one of the signings in particular. There must have been people in the org waving the red flag but they went ahead anyway. So there's some vindication there at least.

On the other hand, Schoop seems like a pretty good guy and student of the game (other than his playing Robin to Machado's Batman in Baltimore).

#173 Linus

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 06:57 PM

I would much rather have signed a true SS and moved Polanco to 2nd.
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#174 Aerodeliria

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 09:27 AM

I agree with Nick here. I don't hate the signing but I think that the Twins really need a player in the heart of the lineup who will happily take BBs.

#175 ashburyjohn

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:21 AM

I agree with Nick here. I don't hate the signing but I think that the Twins really need a player in the heart of the lineup who will happily take BBs.

Hopefully someone also with thick skin for criticism of not being teh clutchyness or whatever. :)

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