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Article: What's There to Say About Ehire?

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#61 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:07 PM

 

What is the main point that we're disputing? Is it just the definition of a "backup"? I'm not sure I follow.

 

It would be great to have 25 all-stars on the roster who all got an equal piece of the pie. Realistically, no player who believes himself to be "starting caliber" is going to want to sign with a team as the 25th man on the roster (especially in MN, maybe in NYY). I think that's an unrealistic expectation. Many pro players would rather be a starter on a last place team than a non-starter on a World Series contender. 

 

I don't believe in backups. I only believe in 25 players on a roster, all with the ability to win the majority of playing time based on actual performance. 

 

I'm not asking for 25 all-stars on a roster. I'm simply asking for 25 players who are able to provide competition with the other 24 players on the roster for playing time. Jake Cave is not an all-star but he was able to provide competition for Kepler's playing time.

 

If Adrianza is signed as a part-time role player.. his role has been established as someone who play's part time. His signing is only justified by saying... "He won't play much". 

 

I'm sure players would love to come to a team and be promised an every day job with no consequences if they don't perform. I'm saying, fine don't come.

 

I'll sign the players who will come to the team with the promise that they will play if they out-play the person next to them.  

 

I don't believe in backups. I don't believe in a starting 9 come hell or high water. I believe that you sing for your supper. Morrison should have seen a reduction in playing time. If Molitor wouldn't play LaMarre, he shouldn't have been on the roster. We should have been able to identify a player who could have out produced what Morrison produced. 

 

I don't believe in backups. 

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#62 TheLeviathan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:55 PM

 

My issue is going to be strictly fundamental. 

 

But that didn't really answer my question..750 OPS players, especially those who can play SS and 2B, are scarce.I'm not even sure that's a debatable contention.

 

I understand your point about utilization, I don't think I disagree.But that doesn't seem to address the scarcity issue and your response to that.Maybe you did mean something entirely different?Should that be my takeaway?


#63 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 03:08 PM

But that didn't really answer my question. .750 OPS players, especially those who can play SS and 2B, are scarce. I'm not even sure that's a debatable contention.

I understand your point about utilization, I don't think I disagree. But that doesn't seem to address the scarcity issue and your response to that. Maybe you did mean something entirely different? Should that be my takeaway?


We are probably talking past each other. My point is pretty simple.

I believe they wouldn’t be scarce with better utilization.

if they are scarce... it’s only because teams settle for a lower bar.... therefore making them seem scarce when in reality they are not.

Teams can start fixing this decades long problem by simply not signing a player with the intention of only limited duty if everything goes perfect. Sign players to compete. Promise them playing time if they perform... take away playing time if they don’t.

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#64 JLease

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 03:32 PM

 

I don't believe in backups. I only believe in 25 players on a roster, all with the ability to win the majority of playing time based on actual performance. 

 

I'm not asking for 25 all-stars on a roster. I'm simply asking for 25 players who are able to provide competition with the other 24 players on the roster for playing time. Jake Cave is not an all-star but he was able to provide competition for Kepler's playing time.

 

If Adrianza is signed as a part-time role player.. his role has been established as someone who play's part time. His signing is only justified by saying... "He won't play much". 

 

I'm sure players would love to come to a team and be promised an every day job with no consequences if they don't perform. I'm saying, fine don't come.

 

I'll sign the players who will come to the team with the promise that they will play if they out-play the person next to them.  

 

I don't believe in backups. I don't believe in a starting 9 come hell or high water. I believe that you sing for your supper. Morrison should have seen a reduction in playing time. If Molitor wouldn't play LaMarre, he shouldn't have been on the roster. We should have been able to identify a player who could have out produced what Morrison produced. 

 

I don't believe in backups. 

 

That's all fine and good in a vacuum, but the FO has to deal in reality. Most proven, starting quality players aren't going to sign somewhere if they don't see a job opening. So what are we talking about here?

 

A manager problem who kept going to the well with a vet like Morrison who sucked? That manager got fired.

 

You're not going to have a roster with 25 starters on it. And you're going to have a problem if every guy on the roster thinks they should be starting and isn't willing to fill a role. You have to have guys on your roster that fill roles, not just for pitching but for the lineup, especially when you only get 12-13 spots for the guys in the field. Adrianza fills a role: positional flexibility with at least adequate defense and hitting that's respectable for middle infield.

 

You bring up Jake Cave and suggest he competed for Kepler's playing time, but the reality is, with Buxton hurt/ineffective there was an opening for a guy to get some OF playing time. He didn't take away any time from Kepler, who had a career high in games played and plate appearances. Cave's a useful player, but he also had a BABIP of .363 which probably isn't sustainable. He's still a useful player because he can't be an effective CF for you if Buxton repeats last year and be a nice defensive replacement in the corners. but he's not pushing Kepler out of RF. The problem the Twins have right now in the OF is they don't know if Kepler can hit enough to be an every day RF or Buxton can hit enough to be an every day CF.

 

 

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#65 TheLeviathan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 04:00 PM

 

We are probably talking past each other. My point is pretty simple.

I believe they wouldn’t be scarce with better utilization.

if they are scarce... it’s only because teams settle for a lower bar.... therefore making them seem scarce when in reality they are not.

Teams can start fixing this decades long problem by simply not signing a player with the intention of only limited duty if everything goes perfect. Sign players to compete. Promise them playing time if they perform... take away playing time if they don’t.

 

I don't believe every baseball player should be playing at SS and 2B.I think that position group will always have a scarcity of good hitters that can capably field those positions at the level required in the big leagues.  

 

It's a rare skill set to handle 2B/SS and be a good major league hitter.Hence the scarcity.No amount of rational belief in flexibility should lead you to a different conclusion.This is an example of when you start to veer away from something I can agree with.

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#66 tvagle

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 04:14 PM

What's there to say about Ehire?

 

I think the Front Office just made a little statement in picking up Torreyes...nothing like a little

 

C-O-M-P-E-T-I-T-I-O-N

 

(especially when if it works out only costs $800k and if it doesn't $0K)

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Is it 2020 yet?


#67 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 05:29 PM

 

I don't believe every baseball player should be playing at SS and 2B.I think that position group will always have a scarcity of good hitters that can capably field those positions at the level required in the big leagues.  

 

It's a rare skill set to handle 2B/SS and be a good major league hitter.Hence the scarcity.No amount of rational belief in flexibility should lead you to a different conclusion.This is an example of when you start to veer away from something I can agree with.

 

SS... I agree with you. It's like the Catcher position where they sacrifice some offense for the defensive skill. 

 

2B less and less... Reports on Adrianza is that he isn't off the charts defensively... not that I always believe the defensive metrics presented. 

 

Thanks for saying my flexibility points are rational but, this isn't a flexibility point I'm making.:)

 

It's a depth point... It's a 25 man roster limitation discussion. Can Adrianza fill in for Schoop if Schoop hits like he did last year or would we be better off with Torreyes or could we trade a couple of low level players for Brock Holt and do even better? 

 

 

 

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

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I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#68 Doomtints

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 05:38 PM

 

Well, when you advocate "go get two of them" - it sure sounds like you think it's easy.  

 

The Twins got two more!


#69 TheLeviathan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 05:41 PM

 

 

It's a depth point... It's a 25 man roster limitation discussion. Can Adrianza fill in for Schoop if Schoop hits like he did last year or would we be better off with Torreyes or could we trade a couple of low level players for Brock Holt and do even better? 

 

It's not clear to me that any of these guys will be better than Adrianza next year.Probably Holt, but maybe not.And that's sorta my point.

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#70 TheLeviathan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:03 PM

 

The Twins got two more!

 

This was sarcasm right?Not that I mind Schoop...but Torryes has a .664 OPS.And the Yankees thanked him on his way out.

 

But that's the talent landscape in the MI.It's sorta bad.

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#71 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:27 PM

 

It's not clear to me that any of these guys will be better than Adrianza next year.Probably Holt, but maybe not.And that's sorta my point.

 

You might be in lock step with the front office. They obviously see something in him. I won't knock you for liking a player more than I do.  

 

I don't hate him... I believe he should have played a lot more than he did last year but that was based upon what his peers were doing last year. There were times when he was our best hitter last year. 

 

Although, I admit I'm not comfortable with Adrianza being the replacement for a Sano meltdown in 2019. But that personal issue of mine is probably more of Cron/Austin discussion because I had the hope that the Twins would find a 3B that would challenge Sano directly instead of two 1B's taking up the roster space. Cron/Austin on the same roster would limit any 3B acquisition possibility. Bring me Castellanos or Moustakas and I'll be happy.:)  

 

Basically... I see no reason why the Twins couldn't start the season with Polanco, Schoop AND pick a reasonably priced middle infielder with some talent. Asdrubal or whoever. And let them dictate the playing time allocation based on performance. If all are performing... a decent manager will figure it out. He doesn't have to pick two and let the other collect dust.A decent GM will figure out how to turn the excess into something else if Nick Gordon hits the stage a running. And if someone isn't performing... you have another option to turn to. 

 

The Twins have rode the same horses into the ground over and over again. It has to stop.  

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

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I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#72 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:58 PM

 

That's all fine and good in a vacuum, but the FO has to deal in reality. Most proven, starting quality players aren't going to sign somewhere if they don't see a job opening. So what are we talking about here?

 

A manager problem who kept going to the well with a vet like Morrison who sucked? That manager got fired.

 

You're not going to have a roster with 25 starters on it. And you're going to have a problem if every guy on the roster thinks they should be starting and isn't willing to fill a role. You have to have guys on your roster that fill roles, not just for pitching but for the lineup, especially when you only get 12-13 spots for the guys in the field. Adrianza fills a role: positional flexibility with at least adequate defense and hitting that's respectable for middle infield.

 

You bring up Jake Cave and suggest he competed for Kepler's playing time, but the reality is, with Buxton hurt/ineffective there was an opening for a guy to get some OF playing time. He didn't take away any time from Kepler, who had a career high in games played and plate appearances. Cave's a useful player, but he also had a BABIP of .363 which probably isn't sustainable. He's still a useful player because he can't be an effective CF for you if Buxton repeats last year and be a nice defensive replacement in the corners. but he's not pushing Kepler out of RF. The problem the Twins have right now in the OF is they don't know if Kepler can hit enough to be an every day RF or Buxton can hit enough to be an every day CF.

 

Paragraph one: If you have to promise a free agent that the team will faithfully tank along with him if he tanks and his playing time won't ever be questioned... we shouldn't sign a free agent ever again. When you sign a free agent... you pay the money it takes to sign him. You outbid the other teams and no team is going to outbid other teams for limited playing time. Simply outbidding other teams is expressed expectation that he won't be benched IF and I mean IF he is performing. If you are trading to acquire the acquisition... you have his rights.You have all the leverage you need to demand results. If you want to extend your own player to a new deal... he is performing and therefore playing... If he isn't... you don't want to sign him to an extension anyway.

 

If I'm a player... and I have competition for my services... I am strongly considering the talent next to me. I'm not signing with the Twins because they have players hitting .160 playing every day in the same lineup. If I don't have confidence in my talent that I need an assurance of playing time. Yeah... Sign me up Twins. I'd love a sweet deal like that. Get paid millions and produce whatever you like. 

 

Paragraph Two: Yep... and do it again if you have to. 

 

Paragraph Three: The only role they need to fill is the role of performing when given a spot in the lineup. If you are in the lineup as a 2B, you are in the lineup as a 2B. That is your role. The backup role will take care of itself by who isn't getting the job done. It will happen naturally by letting the players decide who gets that role based on who is less deserving. Don't go into the season... "Hey... You are my backup". That's all the expectation I have of you and then give him a million dollars for his willingness to put the uniform on and watch others play. 

 

Paragraph Four: I used Cave as an example and I used Kepler as an example. Don't get lost making the examples specific. They were "For example" but go ahead and insert any names you want for the example. Let's just take your final sentence. "The problem the Twins have right now in the OF is they don't know if Kepler can hit enough to be an every day RF or Buxton can hit enough to be an every day CF". 

 

I agree with that last sentence 1000%... So if you don't know... and I don't know (I don't)... the front office doesn't know... Even Chief doesn't know... Why on earth would you sign a back up who isn't good enough to deserve a starting job and say... he won't play much even if you don't know what is going to happen with Kepler and Buxton. Are we afraid that if Kepler and Buxton figure it out and actually perform, that a 4th outfielder who is also performing is going to be a problem? 

 

Same point for the middle infield... We got Polanco and now we got Schoop. Schoop has major question marks based on last year... just like the question marks we have Kepler, Buxton and Sano... does the team punt the 2B position if Schoop doesn't right the ship. Was he was promised an every day job no matter what to get him here and the season ticket holders are just going to have to take it, if it happens or does Schoop play every day because Adrianza was only signed as a back up to play on getaway days and not signed with the intention of him being needed to play full time? 

 

Just get a player who can compete with Polanco and Schoop. Trade, Waivers, IFA, FA... I don't care. We got money, we got trade chips and we got a weak AL Central. This isn't hard... and it's necessary.

 

All the front office has to do is not sign a player with the attitude that he isn't going to play much. 

 

I don't hate Adrianza... He's got some value. I take issue with any comment that states "He's fine for a backup". 

 

I don't believe in backups. 

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#73 Shaitan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 07:29 PM

 

I don't believe in backups. 

 

I agree with 90% of what you're saying here. Really, it feels that we're just debating the meaning of a word, which I don't understand because it's already defined by the dictionary.

 

Anyway, I like Ehire. I'll end my piece there because otherwise we're just going in circles and it seems like we mostly agree.

 

 

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#74 Shaitan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 07:30 PM

 

What's there to say about Ehire?

 

I think the Front Office just made a little statement in picking up Torreyes...nothing like a little

 

C-O-M-P-E-T-I-T-I-O-N

 

(especially when if it works out only costs $800k and if it doesn't $0K)

I fully expect the Twins to carry two backup infielders. They have every year as long as I can remember.


#75 Doctor Wu

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:14 AM

Honestly, I have no problems at all with Adrianza being on the roster as a backup infielder. Good glove and he's hit much better than advertised.. My bigger concern at this point is improving the pitching staff.

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#76 Kevin

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:52 AM

But, he did have left shoulder labrum surgery in October.It might not affect his fielding much but we will find out if his hitting will be affected.Having a reasonable back up plan, Torreyes, seems prudent.


#77 Doomtints

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:44 AM

 

This was sarcasm right?Not that I mind Schoop...but Torryes has a .664 OPS.And the Yankees thanked him on his way out.

 

But that's the talent landscape in the MI.It's sorta bad.

 

This also means Astudillo is blocked, but the Twins will hold that carrot out through spring training anyway.


#78 jkcarew

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:52 PM

 

jkcarew came up with .750.I simply said there are not that many guys better than Ehire and his .700ish OPS.

Adrinza's career OPS is 658 in about 900 PA...it was 680 last year.The Twins just got Torreyes to go with Schoop.Torreyes is at 685 OPS in a little over 600 MLB PA.Would I bet that Torreyes will be better offensively than Adrianza next year?Nope.

 

But I appreciate the effort (small that it was).There is at least some reason to hope that Torreyes can be an upgrade offensively based on his minor league track record relative to Adrianza's. If nothing else it's a little competition or another option.


#79 Twins33

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 03:23 PM

Adrinza's career OPS is 658 in about 900 PA...it was 680 last year.The Twins just got Torreyes to go with Schoop.Torreyes is at 685 OPS in a little over 600 MLB PA.Would I bet that Torreyes will be better offensively than Adrianza next year?Nope.
 
But I appreciate the effort (small that it was).There is at least some reason to hope that Torreyes can be an upgrade offensively based on his minor league track record relative to Adrianza's. If nothing else it's a little competition or another option.

Im more concerned about recent production than minor league production and Adrianza beats him there the last three years. If you just count Adrianza's last two years he beats Torreyes in BB% and ISO. Torreyes gets him on avg and K%, though Adrianza is average at worst in striking out.

Torreyes may be better eventually because of his track record but he hasn't shown to be the last two years (even three if you count Adrianza as a Giant for one year) on the MLB field. At least he's not in my eyes because I'll take the more patient hitter with more power. Their defense is probably equal, but that I admit, I haven't looked at.

#80 Riverbrian

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 04:22 PM

Im more concerned about recent production than minor league production and Adrianza beats him there the last three years. If you just count Adrianza's last two years he beats Torreyes in BB% and ISO. Torreyes gets him on avg and K%, though Adrianza is average at worst in striking out.

Torreyes may be better eventually because of his track record but he hasn't shown to be the last two years (even three if you count Adrianza as a Giant for one year) on the MLB field. At least he's not in my eyes because I'll take the more patient hitter with more power. Their defense is probably equal, but that I admit, I haven't looked at.


Both still kinda qualify as small sample sizes in my eyes so I wonder about the benefit of any statistical comparisons.

They have some years under their belt but neither have a ton of extended action.

Who knows but I’m hesitant to close the book a couple of pages in.

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!




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