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Article: Where Are We Now?

thad levine rocco baldelli cj cron jose berrios
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#101 ashburyjohn

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 08:24 PM

As I recall, you pitched a fit, too. Tore up in internets.

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#102 Riverbrian

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 11:08 PM

 

One year contracts:

 

My take on Levine's cautionary comments about the detriment caused last year by one-year contracts, was that they were a veiled criticism of Morrison and Lynn. Something tells me that in addition to being under-productive on the field, they were toxic in the clubhouse. I lack any direct eveidence of this, but reading between the lines a little, that's my suspicion.

 

Wondering if others get that vibe or can point to more solid evidence.

 

It would surprise me if they avoided single year commitments.

 

When things go wrong... it's amazing, the things people come up while they are squirming to explain (what wasn't supposed to happen).  

 

Some free agent signings didn't work out... it was a mistake but they tried and I have no problem with a honest mistake of effort. 

 

When they continued to play the mistakes... that's when they compounded the original mistake and that was entirely preventable and that is an example of not trying. 

 

So now the assumption is that they won't try again? That's like saying, I'm not buying the belt because I kept whipping myself with it over and over again while my pants fell down. 

 

They can talk bout one year contracts being the problem... it's just a tortured grasping at straws.

 

I also heard Lavine say that it was real hard to overcome getting 9% of the production that Dozier, Sano and Buxton were projected to get as consensus Top 50 players going into the season. Now they appear to be poised to go back to Sano and Buxton without safety nets. It obviously was a mistake to project that kind of production from Dozier, Sano and Buxton because they missed by 91%? However, we all make mistakes and they are forgiven but It's a bigger mistake to repeat that mistake and they got the dice in their hand again. I swear, if I hear them say anything like that again, If I hear, well we only got 12% of the projected production from Sano and Buxton this year and it was too hard to over come... I swear if I hear them use that excuse again... I just might type something on Twinsdaily about it. 

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#103 Riverbrian

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 11:13 PM

 

Apparently this is the group we’re going with this year. We’ll maybe add a few dumpster dives like usual and hope everyone has an above average season. Paul Goldschmidt just went to St. Louis for basically nothing. Luke weaver could be a decent pitcher and Kelly may be a decent catcher. With the depth of our system we could have definitely made this work and maybe we get a shot at resigning him. Either way this guy is a perennial top 10 mvp vote every year. 900 ops guy. This team is being handed to a group of kids that haven’t proven any consistency. I’m not complaining but jeez. We’re either gonna be surprised or this will be another mediocre season. Are we sure Terry Ryan isn’t hiding behind a curtain somewhere running this team still?

 

I'm not saying that the presence of Cron prevented the Twins from taking a serious run at Goldschmidt because the presence of Cron should never prevent anyone from acquiring Goldschmidt. 

 

However... the presence of Cron just might have caused them to lessen the need to find a replacement for Mauer.

 

Why give up that Weaver and Kelly equivalent for a position that already has Cron and Austin. Especially, If Cron can't play anywhere else and Austin wasn't played in the OF in September. 

 

That is a suggestion that I will suggest as plausible.:)

 

 

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#104 Riverbrian

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 11:16 PM

 

Agreed! I wasn't 1 year deals per se, it was those particular 1 year deals. Who could have known at the time that each would regress? And it ended up turning into a few more decent prospects.

For a team like the Twins, where there are expected to be some important promotions from the farm in each of 19, 20, 21 and 22, long term contracts might only serve to create traffic jams.

Besides, if memory serves me correctly, they DID sign a RP to a longer term contract. How is THAT working out for them.

 

I love logjams... I've never seen one... but I know 100% that I love them. 

 

If you create honest to god extra talent... you can trade some of it. 

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#105 highlander

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:23 AM

Thank you
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#106 laloesch

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:01 PM

I'm tired of the excuses being made for Buxton and Kepler.Yeah he broke his toe, yeah he's a great defender, but the guy can't hit above .200 consistently and Kepler wasn't much better.I'd like to see how far Kirilloff progresses this year.Could answer a lot of questions and whether or not the Twins need to go out and grab an outfielder or two.You have to start thinking potential plan B the way Buxton and Kepler have played the last three seasons (they both have over 300 games at the major league level).

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#107 Vanimal46

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:10 PM

I'm tired of the excuses being made for Buxton and Kepler. Yeah he broke his toe, yeah he's a great defender, but the guy can't hit above .200 consistently and Kepler wasn't much better. I'd like to see how far Kirilloff progresses this year. Could answer a lot of questions and whether or not the Twins need to go out and grab an outfielder or two. You have to start thinking potential plan B the way Buxton and Kepler have played the last three seasons (they both have over 300 games at the major league level).


I'm with you on Buxton and Kepler. It's put up or shut up time for them. I wish they gave Kirilloff a month in AA last season instead of keeping him for the Fort Myers playoff run. He was absolutely murdering the ball and didn't need additional time down there. If the minors is all about development treat it that way. If Fort Myers fans are upset because their best player isn't around for the playoffs oh well.
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#108 gunnarthor

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:32 PM

 

I'm tired of the excuses being made for Buxton and Kepler.Yeah he broke his toe, yeah he's a great defender, but the guy can't hit above .200 consistently and Kepler wasn't much better.I'd like to see how far Kirilloff progresses this year.Could answer a lot of questions and whether or not the Twins need to go out and grab an outfielder or two.You have to start thinking potential plan B the way Buxton and Kepler have played the last three seasons (they both have over 300 games at the major league level).

Buxton has always hit above .200 except in 90 at bats last year. 

 

A lot of your comments were made 12 years ago about Morneau. Fans were ready to ride him out of town for Ty Wigginton. He started 2006 so cold - 50 games into the season he was hitting .240/.300/.464 and his career OPS+ was below 100. He hit .357/.408/.601 from there and won the MVP that year. Generally, talent wins out. There are exceptions and injuries can derail careers, too. But with players as talented as Buxton, the talent shows up. He was probably the best player in baseball the second half of 2017 and if he stays healthy, he can be that guy again. Way too much concern over an injury wrecked season.


#109 USAFChief

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:39 PM

 

Buxton has always hit above .200 except in 90 at bats last year. 

 

A lot of your comments were made 12 years ago about Morneau. Fans were ready to ride him out of town for Ty Wigginton. He started 2006 so cold - 50 games into the season he was hitting .240/.300/.464 and his career OPS+ was below 100. He hit .357/.408/.601 from there and won the MVP that year. Generally, talent wins out. There are exceptions and injuries can derail careers, too. But with players as talented as Buxton, the talent shows up. He was probably the best player in baseball the second half of 2017 and if he stays healthy, he can be that guy again. Way too much concern over an injury wrecked season.

I think you're exaggerating.

 

I don't remember anyone wanting to run Morneau out of town.

 

And Buxton wasn't even the best player on the Twins in the second half of 2017 (that was Dozier), much less all of MLB.  

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#110 Vanimal46

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:53 PM

I think you're exaggerating.

I don't remember anyone wanting to run Morneau out of town.

And Buxton wasn't even the best player on the Twins in the second half of 2017 (that was Dozier), much less all of MLB.


Granted I was just a wee lad at the time but I remember people wanting to run Dougie baseball out of town so Morneau can take over full time.

#111 FargoFanMan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 08:49 PM

Morneau had potential. He showed flashes and took the next step. We also had a Hunter in his prime. The next coming of Ted Williams in Mauer. Many other players who had already established consistency beyond Morneau. Nobody on this team is showing anything of flashes besides Berrios. We’re on the edge of having to go into total rebuild if we see nothing this year. We have no veteran presence on this team at the moment. Nobody we can count on as being consistent. Unless we make some deals and have a few surprise performances this team is looking more like 100 losses than even 80 wins. How long do we have to wait? 5? 10? 15 years? Our farm system is deep but does not have the star power to put together a contender if this season goes awry. There’s a lot riding here and where do we go if this season falls off a cliff?

#112 laloesch

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:40 AM

 

Morneau had potential. He showed flashes and took the next step. We also had a Hunter in his prime. The next coming of Ted Williams in Mauer. Many other players who had already established consistency beyond Morneau. Nobody on this team is showing anything of flashes besides Berrios. We’re on the edge of having to go into total rebuild if we see nothing this year. We have no veteran presence on this team at the moment. Nobody we can count on as being consistent. Unless we make some deals and have a few surprise performances this team is looking more like 100 losses than even 80 wins. How long do we have to wait? 5? 10? 15 years? Our farm system is deep but does not have the star power to put together a contender if this season goes awry. There’s a lot riding here and where do we go if this season falls off a cliff?

 

EXACTLY.We saw Morneau's power potential

 

Buxton has always hit above .200 except in 90 at bats last year. 

 

A lot of your comments were made 12 years ago about Morneau. Fans were ready to ride him out of town for Ty Wigginton. He started 2006 so cold - 50 games into the season he was hitting .240/.300/.464 and his career OPS+ was below 100. He hit .357/.408/.601 from there and won the MVP that year. Generally, talent wins out. There are exceptions and injuries can derail careers, too. But with players as talented as Buxton, the talent shows up. He was probably the best player in baseball the second half of 2017 and if he stays healthy, he can be that guy again. Way too much concern over an injury wrecked season.

 

Yeah BARELY. I never felt that way about Morneau (yes i know your generalizing).I was always a big fan and he's one of my favorite Twins of all time. My mlb.com forum avatar was a pic. of Morneau in all the years i was a part of those forums before it was shut down.

 

That said, we saw glimpses of future Morneau much earlier than Buxton and he became consistently good earlier in his career than Buxton who still hasn't crossed that threshold 300 games in (although injuries haven't helped matters).

 

But to be honest I don't really see the comparison between these two players anyways. Ones a sleek slender outfielder the other a stocky 1st baseman/DH, kinda apples to oranges IMO.

Edited by laloesch, 07 December 2018 - 10:48 AM.


#113 gunnarthor

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:52 AM

 

I think you're exaggerating.

 

I don't remember anyone wanting to run Morneau out of town.

 

And Buxton wasn't even the best player on the Twins in the second half of 2017 (that was Dozier), much less all of MLB.  

Oh, hell yeah. People were done with Morneau in April 2006. The big stat at the time was OPS+ and Morneau had just one season where he topped that and in 2005 he posted a 93 OPS+ at age 24. 2006 started even worse. Fans had absolutely given up on him. He had over 1000 ml at-bats by then. Gardy benched him for a few games to get his head straight. The ESPN boards were full of Twins fans wanting to trade him for Wiggenton on the Rays, who started red-hot that year. But a lot of fans were ready to trade him for a bag-o-balls.

 

As for Buxton/Dozier, it was Buxton and it wasn't close. Dozier out-hit him slightly (.291/.382/.557 to .309/.358/.538) but Buxton amassed something like 5 WAR in the second half of the year and nearly tripled Dozier in WPA. 

Edited by gunnarthor, 07 December 2018 - 10:52 AM.




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