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John Shipley: Florimon has team weighing move for Dozier

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#1 East Coast Twin

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 02:54 PM

"Florimon has kind of made the plays and shown some of the range that you really like from a shortstop, that Dozier didn't necessarily do," assistant general manager Rob Antony said Sunday, Sept. 16. "So it might be a situation where we still think Dozier can be a good player, but he may end up being a second baseman instead of a shortstop."

"I'm very comfortable with him [Florimon] out there," manager Ron Gardenhire said. "We're not going to
name a starting lineup (for 2013) or anything like right now, or even later, but I really like him out there. I think there are things he can get better at ... but I like him. I like the way he moves, I like the way he watches. He pays attention. He's got great hands; he can makes some plays, with a strong arm."

http://www.twincitie...m-weighing-move

#2 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:11 PM

most people arent surprised that Dozier would be moved to 2B, but if they start the season with Florimon as their SS they will again be one of the 5 worst teams in baseball since it signals the front office/managers philosiphy of 'we're good where we are' with an unproven 26 yr old SS that 29 other teams passed on less than a year ago.

#3 70charger

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:52 PM

most people arent surprised that Dozier would be moved to 2B, but if they start the season with Florimon as their SS they will again be one of the 5 worst teams in baseball since it signals the front office/managers philosiphy of 'we're good where we are' with an unproven 26 yr old SS that 29 other teams passed on less than a year ago.


Maybe, maybe not. Yes, it's important to have good up the middle defense. But starting pitching is our sine qua non. I'm not sure that spending money on pitching as opposed to a shortstop in this situation wouldn't be the better choice.

Also, is it possible that there are fewer top-level shortstops than there are major league teams? I'm sure every single team in the league would love a great shortstop, and I'm sure that most teams in the league would consider the hypothetical "somebody else" to be an upgrade, but that doesn't mean that that person is attainable. I'd love to have Jurickson Profar, but are we ever going to get him? No. This may be making the best of a bad situation.

#4 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:06 PM

Everyone on the site says spend every cent available on pitching.
Im not saying we need an all-star or all star level middle infielder OR someone that makes alot of money but we need somebody better than Pedro Florimon or any pitching we acquire (doubt that they will anyways) will be a moot point. Twins lineup isnt stacked enough to be able to afford the type of player he is.
Unfortuantely, its Gardy/Ryans MO that they loves weak hitting middle infielders as they havent had someone other than that in their tenure. The 2 legit middle infielder we had in 10 (Hardy/Hudson) were Bill Smith acquisitions.
MN will issue some kind of quote about how 'they can get by with Florimon' as they think he's a slick fielder. There are many playes who are just as slick fielding as Pedro who wont cost too much or possibly any more.
I personally think Florimon/Dozier should start the yr in AAA and MN should address this situation

#5 Thrylos

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

most people arent surprised that Dozier would be moved to 2B, but if they start the season with Florimon as their SS they will again be one of the 5 worst teams in baseball since it signals the front office/managers philosiphy of 'we're good where we are' with an unproven 26 yr old SS that 29 other teams passed on less than a year ago.


The only inaccuracy about this is that the Twins (since he was in an AL team) had the first cut at him and did not pass. So we do not know whether the other 28 teams (the O's did pass) would pass on him.
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#6 jorgenswest

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:14 PM

Should we be concerned that his defensive metrics thus far are not very encouraging?

Should we be concerned that he had a fielding percentage below .950 in the minors?

Should we be concerned about his poor batting record in the minors?

Should we be concerned that his age gives him no upside?

Maybe the Twins scouts see something not shown in the data. Maybe the other teams didn't see what they see.

I think they are going with the wrong all glove/no bat option at shortstop.

#7 minn55441

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:38 PM

I'll take Gardy at his word.

"We're not going to name a starting lineup (for 2013) or anything like right now, or even later, but I really like him out there. I think there are things he can get better at ... but I like him.

I like Florimon. I'm not ready to name him the starter in 2013 as Gardy mentioned. I hope he has more competition for the job than Dozier and Carroll. With that said, I would expect them to try and find depth, if not better options at 3B, SS and 2B in addition to our obvious need for starting pitching. Should we go out and get a legitimate starter at one or more of these spots? If the price it right, make the deal. If what has been mentioned by many that the options this off season will be severely limited at SS, I would not over pay for a player that isn't much of an upgrade to what we already have.

I think Florimon still has some upside. He seems to have the confidence at both the plate and in the field. Now he has to back it up, with some more consistent play.

#8 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:46 PM

most people arent surprised that Dozier would be moved to 2B, but if they start the season with Florimon as their SS they will again be one of the 5 worst teams in baseball since it signals the front office/managers philosiphy of 'we're good where we are' with an unproven 26 yr old SS that 29 other teams passed on less than a year ago.


The only inaccuracy about this is that the Twins (since he was in an AL team) had the first cut at him and did not pass. So we do not know whether the other 28 teams (the O's did pass) would pass on him.


We know they did.....MN outrighted him off the 40 man roster to ROC late this winter, so 29 teams passed on him.

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:52 PM

I think Florimon still has some upside.


As much upside as Parmelee at 3b?

Florimon as the starting SS for a winning major league baseball team is wishful thinking at best.

#10 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:58 PM

Florimon won't kill you if he cuts out his fielding miscues and the rest of the lineup performs. The likelihood of both happening is relatively small, I think.

#11 SpantheMan

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:15 PM



I think Florimon still has some upside.


As much upside as Parmelee at 3b?

Florimon as the starting SS for a winning major league baseball team is wishful thinking at best.


Parmelee at 3b is wishful thinking. And good teams often have good glove/no hit shortstops

#12 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:24 PM

[quote name='SpantheMan'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='minn55441']

I think Florimon still has some upside.[/QUOTE]

As much upside as Parmelee at 3b?

Florimon as the starting SS for a winning major league baseball team is wishful thinking at best.[/QUOTE]

Parmelee at 3b is wishful thinking. And good teams often have good glove/no hit shortstops[/QUOTE]
There is no hit shortstops & then there is Florimon.......believe you're thinking about wrong decade
Teams in contention (top 2 each division)
AL--Jeter/Hardy/Ramirez/Peralta/Andrus/Drew....all hitters
NL--Desmond/Simmons/Cozart/Furcal/Crawford/Ramirez----give ya Cozart & Crawford but they are both plus defenders (UZR)....something Florimon hasnt even shown yet
10 of 12 hitters of some degreee......losing teams have no hit shortstops

Edited by greengoblinrulz, 16 September 2012 - 06:31 PM.


#13 Alex

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:26 PM

I'll take Gardy at his word.

.


Why? Because they've shown such skill at evaluating and developing middle infielders over the past decade or so?

#14 minn55441

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:42 PM

I'll take Gardy at his word.

.


Why? Because they've shown such skill at evaluating and developing middle infielders over the past decade or so?


This is the quote

We're not going to name a starting lineup (for 2013) or anything like right now, or even later, but I really like him out there. I think there are things he can get better at ... but I like him.

"We are not naming him the starting SS in 2013" I agree with this statement.

"There are things he can get better at" I agree with this statement.

I think he has some upside. I like the way he plays. There are players that still progress at 25, 26 and even 27 years of age. Does he need to improve? yes. Is he capable of improving his play? I guess he is the one that has control over that.

#15 minn55441

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:54 PM



I think Florimon still has some upside.


As much upside as Parmelee at 3b?

Florimon as the starting SS for a winning major league baseball team is wishful thinking at best.


Some players improve, some regress. I think Florimon has the skills to be an everyday SS in the majors, if he improves. I guess I would say I'm optimistic more so that "wishful". I don't have a chance to interact with the players, so I don't know their attitude, demeanor or how they react to instruction. As an observer from a distance, it appears that Florimon has the skill set, the question is does he have the little extra it will take to push him over the top? Apparently you feel that Florimon has already peaked, as far as his performance on the field. I see flashes of good play both at the plate and in the field. I think it is still too early to call him all glove/ no bat. Right now he needs to improve in both areas, however I would maintain that it is more a matter of becoming more consistent at the plate and more consistent in the field. He has looked very good in both areas at times. I say give him a chance to earn a starting spot, but make sure he has more competition that what we currently have on the 40 man roster.

#16 snepp

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:10 PM

If *insert player of choice* can improve both offensively and defensively, they could be an everyday player.

#17 Alex

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:12 PM

This is the quote

We're not going to name a starting lineup (for 2013) or anything like right now, or even later, but I really like him out there. I think there are things he can get better at ... but I like him.

"We are not naming him the starting SS in 2013" I agree with this statement.

"There are things he can get better at" I agree with this statement.

I think he has some upside. I like the way he plays. There are players that still progress at 25, 26 and even 27 years of age. Does he need to improve? yes. Is he capable of improving his play? I guess he is the one that has control over that.


Fair enough. If you believe Gardy at his word and that the idea he hasn't penciled him in as a starter this coming season, that's fine. IMO, then Gardy still has really said....nothing.

To expand my point, I hope Gardy is lying through his teeth and telling management they need to upgrade the middle infield, either now or in the future by trading for prospects. Frankly, starting Dozier and Florimon at 2B and SS next year (or at some point) scares the heck out of me. I mean, I know he's not going to say he doesn't like someone in public, but the middle infield evaluation and development of this organization has been worse than all other positions. I'd agree that their number one need is starting pitching but I do think middle infield is a close second.

Edited by Alex, 16 September 2012 - 07:26 PM.


#18 J-Dog Dungan

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:28 PM

[quote name='greengoblinrulz'][quote name='SpantheMan'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='minn55441']

I think Florimon still has some upside.[/QUOTE]

As much upside as Parmelee at 3b?

Florimon as the starting SS for a winning major league baseball team is wishful thinking at best.[/QUOTE]

Parmelee at 3b is wishful thinking. And good teams often have good glove/no hit shortstops[/QUOTE]
There is no hit shortstops & then there is Florimon.......believe you're thinking about wrong decade
Teams in contention (top 2 each division)
AL--Jeter/Hardy/Ramirez/Peralta/Andrus/Drew....all hitters
NL--Desmond/Simmons/Cozart/Furcal/Crawford/Ramirez----give ya Cozart & Crawford but they are both plus defenders (UZR)....something Florimon hasnt even shown yet
10 of 12 hitters of some degreee......losing teams have no hit shortstops[/QUOTE]

Since when is Drew a good-hitting shortstop?

#19 snepp

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:35 PM

Prior to this season Drew was roughly a league average hitter, that's pretty good for a shortstop.

#20 Shane Wahl

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:12 PM

With regard to Stephen Drew, from 2008 to 2010 he was a good hitter for his position, and every year other than this he has been significantly better than any other option the Twins have. And even in 2012 he has been better than some of them.

With regard to Florimon, he seems to really get down on himself. This is the opposite of Casilla who doesn't appear to care. Florimon is a make-the-spectacular-plays-and-miss-the-routine-plays kind of shortstop and Jamey Carroll is the EXACT opposite. Pick your poison defensively. Carroll is creeping up offensively as well. Florimon has only 99 plate appearances with the Twins this year. Calm the hell down.

With regard to Dozier, obviously he is a second baseman. That has been clear this year. It's a good thing the Twins called him up again to play there in September. Oh wait. Well, it's a good thing after his demotion to Rochester he played 2B. Oh wait.

What the hell?

Anyway, it is a bit clownish to worry about this right now. Starting pitching is all that matters right now. There is nothing wrong with a Florimon-Dozier-Carroll MI situation next year. Willingham and Plouffe provide RH power, Doumit and Parmelee will supply some LH power, and Span, Revere, and Mauer are the table setters.

#21 Shane Wahl

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:15 PM

Also with regard to Drew, I had him in my fantasy league in 2007, 2009, and 2011. So, I can't be trusted with any assessment of his value for the Twins . . .

#22 Riverbrian

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:19 PM

[quote name='J-Dog Dungan'][quote name='greengoblinrulz'][quote name='SpantheMan'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='minn55441']

I think Florimon still has some upside.[/QUOTE]

As much upside as Parmelee at 3b?

Florimon as the starting SS for a winning major league baseball team is wishful thinking at best.[/QUOTE]

Parmelee at 3b is wishful thinking. And good teams often have good glove/no hit shortstops[/QUOTE]
There is no hit shortstops & then there is Florimon.......believe you're thinking about wrong decade
Teams in contention (top 2 each division)
AL--Jeter/Hardy/Ramirez/Peralta/Andrus/Drew....all hitters
NL--Desmond/Simmons/Cozart/Furcal/Crawford/Ramirez----give ya Cozart & Crawford but they are both plus defenders (UZR)....something Florimon hasnt even shown yet
10 of 12 hitters of some degreee......losing teams have no hit shortstops[/QUOTE]

Since when is Drew a good-hitting shortstop?[/QUOTE]

Florimon doesn't have a job locked up. We need depth... If we can sign someone better... OK... Lets roll... If we don't... Let's see what happens. I think the Twins should roll some players and have them compete. Unless we find a SS that hits extremely well and that's a tough find. Take the better defender everytime and don't worry about .220 compared to .230 or .240...

Right now I don't care what his UZR is. I'm not counting his errors either. Florimon has made some plays that good shortstops make so I'm willing to watch him. He's hit the ball at times as well and chased badly at other times. I'm ok with letting him see a little more of Verlander, Weaver and JA Happ.

Stephen Drew is a mess... How he gets on the list... I don't know... Ian Desmond hit like crap the two years prior before hitting Ok this year.

Simmons hasn't proven to be anybody yet and he certainly didn't play enough to pull the Braves into the playoffs. Furcal had some amazing years and a bunch of Mendoza years... Hardy hits for Power... He's the Adam Dunn of Shortstops. Peralta... Is Hardy like with less power. If this is a hitting SS list... The only conclusion that can be drawn is that SS's are pretty weak at the plate.

However... When making a point like you are making about hitting Shortstops being the lifeblood of winning baseball teams... You also have to go to the other side. Tulo hits the snot out of the ball and the Rockies are in last place. Rutledge has been hitting very well in his absence. The Rockies ain't dancing. Aviles hits pretty well for a SS... The Red Sox aint dancing... Escobar has been fantastic for the Royals... Royals ain't making the playoffs this year. What about that Asdrubal guy in Northern Ohio. Jose Reyes in Miami... Damn fine hitter... Rollins in Philly... That Castro kid playing on the North Side of Chicago... Oh my God he is as good as they come at the plate. Now Lowrie has been hurt a bit but he's got a decent stroke for Houston. His Average needs to come up but he can find the Crawford Boxes.

We may have to take a show of Twins Daily hands... But I'm willing to say that my list of Hitting Shortstops on the losing teams is stronger than your list of hitting Shortstops on Winning teams.

We need PITCHING!!! And when it comes to placing that pitching on the mound... It will be quite helpful to that pitching if we had a SS who can catch and throw AND... Make a couple of plays that they are not supposed to make. I'd love to have a prospect like Profar and I'd love to have a guy like Tulo... We don't have that guy so I'll settle for someone who gets dirty. Stephen Drew is not that guy.

Edited by Riverbrian, 16 September 2012 - 10:23 PM.


#23 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:41 PM

This shows that good teams have good shortstops & also bad teams have good shortstops (didnt say great)......MN has never even had a league average shortstop for almost a decade (since Guzzie left & that's the HIGH point of SS's the past 2 decades).
Florimon is 26 already & has never even put up a solid minor league season. The Twins are playing him out of desparation OR are they trying to prove the scout who recommended him to MN correct ( is he the Gray/Nishi/Butera/etc scout??).
Regardless of whether people like defensive metrics.....they arent skewed to go against Pedro only. His numbers are attrocious after his first 25 or so games.

#24 jokin

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:52 PM

With regard to Stephen Drew, from 2008 to 2010 he was a good hitter for his position, and every year other than this he has been significantly better than any other option the Twins have. And even in 2012 he has been better than some of them.

With regard to Florimon, he seems to really get down on himself. This is the opposite of Casilla who doesn't appear to care. Florimon is a make-the-spectacular-plays-and-miss-the-routine-plays kind of shortstop and Jamey Carroll is the EXACT opposite. Pick your poison defensively. Carroll is creeping up offensively as well. Florimon has only 99 plate appearances with the Twins this year. Calm the hell down.

With regard to Dozier, obviously he is a second baseman. That has been clear this year. It's a good thing the Twins called him up again to play there in September. Oh wait. Well, it's a good thing after his demotion to Rochester he played 2B. Oh wait.

What the hell?

Anyway, it is a bit clownish to worry about this right now. Starting pitching is all that matters right now. There is nothing wrong with a Florimon-Dozier-Carroll MI situation next year. Willingham and Plouffe provide RH power, Doumit and Parmelee will supply some LH power, and Span, Revere, and Mauer are the table setters.


Hey GM Shane!

What did you get in trade for Morneau?

#25 Brandon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:15 AM

If Texas is ready to play Profar next year then they have a reasonably priced SS for the next 3 years who they can trade (Andrus). The Twins could be a good fit in 1 of 2 trade scenarios. 1. If the Rangers lose Hamilton this offseason they could trade Andrus for something like Span or Revere to take over CF and Andrus leadoff spot and the Twins could throw in Burton or a prospect to balance out the trade. (Hermann or Doumit could be a fit since Napoli is a FA. but I bet he resigns with Texas) Or since Cruz is a fa after next season we could trade Arcia or Hicks instead of Span for Andrus. There are several win/ win scenarios here and it should be looked into if Texas is open to moving one of those SS.

#26 Riverbrian

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:16 AM

This shows that good teams have good shortstops & also bad teams have good shortstops (didnt say great)......MN has never even had a league average shortstop for almost a decade (since Guzzie left & that's the HIGH point of SS's the past 2 decades).
Florimon is 26 already & has never even put up a solid minor league season. The Twins are playing him out of desparation OR are they trying to prove the scout who recommended him to MN correct ( is he the Gray/Nishi/Butera/etc scout??).
Regardless of whether people like defensive metrics.....they arent skewed to go against Pedro only. His numbers are attrocious after his first 25 or so games.


I don't think anyone is trying to say Florimon is without question the guy. The Twins are playing him because he MIGHT and I mean might... be the best current option. Proving a scout correct is a bad way to do business. Desperation? Not much to be desperate about right now... It's possible that... Ok... We've seen a little Dozier... We've seen Carroll... We've seen Casilla... Plouffe... Nishioka... Who's next? Florimon... Ok... Let's run him out there.

Personally... I'm not comfortable with defensive metrics but Ok... Whatever they say... I imagine it says something... But... It's 25 games... That may be the more important metric in my opinion. Especially when considering defensive metrics. 25 games does not present reliable.

League Average SS... Yeah we could improve that position... No one would complain if we did... SS can be put on the list of needs and rightfully so.

I just don't buy the premise that a hitting SS correlates to a top two finish and Florimon has at least shown me some wizardry on defense. A defensive stud at the position will be more important to a building pitching staff than a SS less defensive with a higher OPS unless that OPS is really high and Tulo ain't coming to town.

25 games is too soon pronounce him dead defensively based on UZR or errors for that matter.

#27 jokin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:27 AM

If Texas is ready to play Profar next year then they have a reasonably priced SS for the next 3 years who they can trade (Andrus). The Twins could be a good fit in 1 of 2 trade scenarios. 1. If the Rangers lose Hamilton this offseason they could trade Andrus for something like Span or Revere to take over CF and Andrus leadoff spot and the Twins could throw in Burton or a prospect to balance out the trade. (Hermann or Doumit could be a fit since Napoli is a FA. but I bet he resigns with Texas) Or since Cruz is a fa after next season we could trade Arcia or Hicks instead of Span for Andrus. There are several win/ win scenarios here and it should be looked into if Texas is open to moving one of those SS.


Elvis can leave the building after 2014, so two reasonably priced years, not 3. Love to see it, but the price would likely be higher than you suggest. "Hamilton replaced by Span/Revere"? Won't the Rangers target Bourn as a priority FA replacement?

#28 Boom Boom

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:42 AM

However... When making a point like you are making about hitting Shortstops being the lifeblood of winning baseball teams... You also have to go to the other side. Tulo hits the snot out of the ball and the Rockies are in last place. Rutledge has been hitting very well in his absence. The Rockies ain't dancing. Aviles hits pretty well for a SS... The Red Sox aint dancing... Escobar has been fantastic for the Royals... Royals ain't making the playoffs this year. What about that Asdrubal guy in Northern Ohio. Jose Reyes in Miami... Damn fine hitter... Rollins in Philly... That Castro kid playing on the North Side of Chicago... Oh my God he is as good as they come at the plate. Now Lowrie has been hurt a bit but he's got a decent stroke for Houston. His Average needs to come up but he can find the Crawford Boxes.

We may have to take a show of Twins Daily hands... But I'm willing to say that my list of Hitting Shortstops on the losing teams is stronger than your list of hitting Shortstops on Winning teams.


Wow, it sounds to me like there's a lot more plus-offensive shortstops in the league than I thought. I'm sure that all those teams that have good hitting shortstops and aren't in contention have problems beyond that position.

But when you list the good-hitting shortstops on the good teams, and then go on to list all the good-hitting shortstops on the bad teams, too... it makes me think that going with a Florimon at that position is putting the team at a disadvantage.

#29 wavedog

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:02 AM

A Plouffe-Florimon-Carrol-Dozier 2B-SS-3B infield is pretty mediocre defensively and not much to brag about offensively. Twins either have a weakness drafting talent or in developing and instructing defense in these positions.

#30 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:17 AM

Personally... I'm not comfortable with defensive metrics but Ok... Whatever they say... I imagine it says something... But... It's 25 games... That may be the more important metric in my opinion. Especially when considering defensive metrics. 25 games does not present reliable.

League Average SS... Yeah we could improve that position... No one would complain if we did... SS can be put on the list of needs and rightfully so.

I just don't buy the premise that a hitting SS correlates to a top two finish and Florimon has at least shown me some wizardry on defense. A defensive stud at the position will be more important to a building pitching staff than a SS less defensive with a higher OPS unless that OPS is really high and Tulo ain't coming to town.

25 games is too soon pronounce him dead defensively based on UZR or errors for that matter.


I'm an advocate of defensive metrics and even I would say that using them to determine a sample of 25 games is worse than useless. They can be terribly misleading over that SSS.