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Are the Twins calling up Herrmann?

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#41 snepp

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:11 PM

It's not. Drew Butera is a historically bad MLB hitter. End of story.


I ran a query on BRef the other day, there have been 4,058 position players since 1900 that have been given 500+ plate appearances.



Butera's OPS+ ranks 4,053rd.

#42 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:18 PM

The 25'th person on the roster would matter on playng other teams when they have a number 1-4 starter and the Twins do not.


This is such flawed, aggravating thinking. No one is claiming Drew Butera sank the 2012 season, let's get off that. It's disingenuous and distracting to the real point. Of course he isn't the main reason we're a bad team. But just because you're bad doesn't excuse bad decisions. In part, some of the very same thinking behind the bad decision to scholarship Butera into a roster spot is why this team is as bad as they are. Is he single-handedly or even directly responsible for that? No, but that doesn't excuse the bad decision, which is what is being criticized.

If your manager is going to insist on a third catcher and your highest paid player needs to be a part-time catcher - then you better have one that can be a regular contributor to the team in that role. Especially if you also have a penchant for playing a thin bench.

This represents some scarily lowered expectations for the team. No matter how bad you are it doesn't excuse you poorly constructing your roster.


It's not often I agree with Lev, but this is well said and spot on.

#43 mike wants wins

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:14 PM

If Butera is on the roster next year, I'm going to struggle rooting for Terry Ryan to keep his job, frankly.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :) Also, I am NOT trying to convince anyone I am correct, I'm just talking here, not arguing.


#44 Wookiee of the Year

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 08:48 PM

Well, following the Twins going down by 7 runs, Herrmann got his first major league at bat today. He made contact, even if he didn't reach base. Hopefully he gets a chance to correct that .000 BA in Cleveland.


It's not. Drew Butera is a historically bad MLB hitter. End of story.


I ran a query on BRef the other day, there have been 4,058 position players since 1900 that have been given 500+ plate appearances.



Butera's OPS+ ranks 4,053rd.

Word.

#45 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:13 PM

Its not that these are personal attacks on Drew/Jeff Gray.....each bitch about 'them' is a direct shot at Gardy/Terry Ryan.
The player cannot help it if they are not good enough.....they made the majors but are on the low side of talent in comparison.
This is all WHY are they are on the roster.....good teams dont have these types of players on them

#46 Shane Wahl

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:48 PM

I don't understand the sentiment that, generally, the 25 best players shouldn't be with the Twins. There are a few cases where it makes sense in terms of developing prospects (Clete Thomas was NEVER better than Aaron Hicks or Oswaldo Arcia, much less this year), but Butera isn't top 40 in the organization. Gray isn't top 40 either. Butera is a nice guy to pay a nice salary to stick at Rochester until he's 40, catching and working with prospect pitchers (but as a catcher, not a coach). The 25th guy doesn't make or break the team, but that doesn't mean that they should just give the last roster spot to anyone. Of course, that 25th guy MIGHT make or break the team in the playoffs pinch-hitting if the Twins get back there every again.

Chris Herrmann is in that top 25. And he fits in nicely next year with Mauer and Doumit, and as a fifth OF. Never again will Ryan Doumit ever have to play OF as Herrmann is a good OF defensively. And any defense lost from Butera to Herrmann behind the plate (not as much as one might think, though Butera seems to have most of his value in working with pitchers--see that whole AAA thing above) is made up by a minimum .100 OPS increase (likely .130-.160 increase) and defensive versatility.

#47 old nurse

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:29 PM

What are Hermann's abilities as actually being a cacher, calling a game?

#48 Oxtung

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:35 AM

Herrmann would have reached base 8 more times this season than Butera. 8 times in 5+ months. Roughly 1 time a MONTH. That's even assuming he could maintain the same OBP after the jump to MLB!

This whole conversation seems silly when Butera is only getting 100 AB's.

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:54 AM

Herrmann would have reached base 8 more times this season than Butera. 8 times in 5+ months. Roughly 1 time a MONTH. That's even assuming he could maintain the same OBP after the jump to MLB!

This whole conversation seems silly when Butera is only getting 100 AB's.


Glen Perkins gave up 22 runs this season. Jeff Gray 34. Roughly 2 runs a MONTH.

The whole conversation about Jeff Gray seems silly.

#50 Oxtung

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:57 AM

Anyway, it is a bit clownish to worry about this right now. Starting pitching is all that matters right now. There is nothing wrong with a Florimon-Dozier-Carroll MI situation next year.


I don't understand the sentiment that, generally, the 25 best players shouldn't be with the Twins.


How do you resolve these two opposite sounding statements Shane? If starting pitching is all that matters why the hatred for Buteras 100ABs?

#51 Oxtung

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:59 AM

Herrmann would have reached base 8 more times this season than Butera. 8 times in 5+ months. Roughly 1 time a MONTH. That's even assuming he could maintain the same OBP after the jump to MLB!

This whole conversation seems silly when Butera is only getting 100 AB's.


Glen Perkins gave up 22 runs this season. Jeff Gray 34. Roughly 2 runs a MONTH.

The whole conversation about Jeff Gray seems silly.


Right....because runs and hits are the same thing....

#52 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:07 AM

[quote name='Oxtung'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='Oxtung']Herrmann would have reached base 8 more times this season than Butera. 8 times in 5+ months. Roughly 1 time a MONTH. That's even assuming he could maintain the same OBP after the jump to MLB!

This whole conversation seems silly when Butera is only getting 100 AB's.[/QUOTE]

Glen Perkins gave up 22 runs this season. Jeff Gray 34. Roughly 2 runs a MONTH.

The whole conversation about Jeff Gray seems silly.[/QUOTE]

Right....because runs and hits are the same thing....[/QUOTE]

Because the margin of difference between winning and losing in major league baseball is paper thin. Small advantages, or disadvantages, may not be apparent when you view individual games, but add up over the course of 162 games and turn 90 wins into 60 wins.

Every roster spot matters, right down to the last man in the bullpen and the last man on the bench. Not as much as front line players, obviously, but they matter.

"He's just fine if everyone else does their job," "he won't play much, he doesn't count," and "he'll only pitch innings that don't matter" are three sides of the same poorly reasoned line of thought.

#53 Boom Boom

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:07 AM

It seems that TR's "no scholarships" philosophy was mostly just lip service.

#54 old nurse

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:36 AM

Interesting thought processes out there. Comparing Hicks and Arcia, two players not even AAA ready at midseason to Clete Thomas. If next year Arcia and Hicks are AA and Thomas is around Shane would have a valid point. Hicks got better as the season progress at hitting AA left handers.
Hermann a fine outfielder? Why would you convert him to catcher. As a backup Hermann should be useful, but don't expect a lot. Hitting wise in the minors he put up worse numbers than Clete did at the same levels.

#55 Oxtung

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:05 PM

[quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='Oxtung'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='Oxtung']Herrmann would have reached base 8 more times this season than Butera. 8 times in 5+ months. Roughly 1 time a MONTH. That's even assuming he could maintain the same OBP after the jump to MLB!

This whole conversation seems silly when Butera is only getting 100 AB's.[/QUOTE]

Glen Perkins gave up 22 runs this season. Jeff Gray 34. Roughly 2 runs a MONTH.

The whole conversation about Jeff Gray seems silly.[/QUOTE]

Right....because runs and hits are the same thing....[/QUOTE]

Because the margin of difference between winning and losing in major league baseball is paper thin. Small advantages, or disadvantages, may not be apparent when you view individual games, but add up over the course of 162 games and turn 90 wins into 60 wins.

Every roster spot matters, right down to the last man in the bullpen and the last man on the bench. Not as much as front line players, obviously, but they matter.

"He's just fine if everyone else does their job," "he won't play much, he doesn't count," and "he'll only pitch innings that don't matter" are three sides of the same poorly reasoned line of thought.[/QUOTE]

Are you really trying to say that Herrmann's potential 8 extra trips to first base, and at this point I'm being generous because I think his slash line would drop jumping from AA to MLB on top of the fact that he'd only be playing a few times a month, is the difference between 90 and 60 wins? How many games do you think the Twins win because of those extra 8 base runners? Of course you also have to think about how many games they lose because of the drop off in defense. In the end I can't see this being anything more than a wash.

#56 old nurse

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:17 PM

[quote name='Oxtung'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='Oxtung'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='Oxtung']Herrmann would have reached base 8 more times this season than Butera. 8 times in 5+ months. Roughly 1 time a MONTH. That's even assuming he could maintain the same OBP after the jump to MLB!

This whole conversation seems silly when Butera is only getting 100 AB's.[/QUOTE]

Glen Perkins gave up 22 runs this season. Jeff Gray 34. Roughly 2 runs a MONTH.

The whole conversation about Jeff Gray seems silly.[/QUOTE]

Right....because runs and hits are the same thing....[/QUOTE]

Because the margin of difference between winning and losing in major league baseball is paper thin. Small advantages, or disadvantages, may not be apparent when you view individual games, but add up over the course of 162 games and turn 90 wins into 60 wins.

Every roster spot matters, right down to the last man in the bullpen and the last man on the bench. Not as much as front line players, obviously, but they matter.

"He's just fine if everyone else does their job," "he won't play much, he doesn't count," and "he'll only pitch innings that don't matter" are three sides of the same poorly reasoned line of thought.[/QUOTE]

Are you really trying to say that Herrmann's potential 8 extra trips to first base, and at this point I'm being generous because I think his slash line would drop jumping from AA to MLB on top of the fact that he'd only be playing a few times a month, is the difference between 90 and 60 wins? How many games do you think the Twins win because of those extra 8 base runners? Of course you also have to think about how many games they lose because of the drop off in defense. In the end I can't see this being anything more than a wash.[/QUOTE]

Without one way above average and two above average starters added to the team, all of the comments about who the 5th outfielder, third string catcher and 11th person in the bullpen is trivial. With no real solution to the pitching forthcoming, that is what is left to discuss, trivial matters.

#57 snepp

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:28 PM

Glen Perkins gave up 22 runs this season. Jeff Gray 34. Roughly 2 runs a MONTH.

The whole conversation about Jeff Gray seems silly.


And if we do this for every lousy player on the roster, it adds up to a putrid, unwatchable team.

#58 Shane Wahl

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:12 PM

[quote name='Oxtung'][quote name='Shane Wahl']Anyway, it is a bit clownish to worry about this right now. Starting pitching is all that matters right now. There is nothing wrong with a Florimon-Dozier-Carroll MI situation next year.[/QUOTE]

[quote =Shane Wahl;54391]I don't understand the sentiment that, generally, the 25 best players shouldn't be with the Twins.[/QUOTE]

How do you resolve these two opposite sounding statements Shane? If starting pitching is all that matters why the hatred for Buteras 100ABs?[/QUOTE]

The first quote has to do specifically with Florimon-Dozier-Carroll. I don't know of another MI in the Twins system who is better than those three. Maybe Escobar could be, but he isn't now.

Starting pitching is all that matters in terms of acquiring new players. On the other hand, Chris Herrmann is a better player than Drew Butera. Sure "all" that matters is an overstatement.

#59 Shane Wahl

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:18 PM

It is doubtful that Herrmann would merely get 100 plate appearances. Without a big drop from Doumit to Butera offensively to deal with (Herrmann probably cuts the difference in half), he can catch some more. Also, as a 5th outfielder, he would get more plate appearances. And Butera is clearly not a pinch hitter, but Herrmann could be used as one. He could get around 150-200 plate appearances. A .250/.330./370 slash is not at all out of the question with him. Even at .230/.310/.360 (probably the bottom for him), that is a significant improvement over Drew Butera and the Thomas/Komatsu debacle.

#60 Shane Wahl

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:25 PM

Interesting thought processes out there. Comparing Hicks and Arcia, two players not even AAA ready at midseason to Clete Thomas. If next year Arcia and Hicks are AA and Thomas is around Shane would have a valid point. Hicks got better as the season progress at hitting AA left handers.
Hermann a fine outfielder? Why would you convert him to catcher. As a backup Hermann should be useful, but don't expect a lot. Hitting wise in the minors he put up worse numbers than Clete did at the same levels.


No that Thomas vs. Arcia/Hicks part was a qualification on the "25 best" on the roster thing. It is understandable that prospects shouldn't be up too early when fill-ins are available.

Yes Herrmann is a fine OF. Why convert him to catcher? Because also is at least an average catcher.

I don't expect "a lot" but I expect an improvement on the roster (no Butera, Komatsu, or Thomas, for instance). Herrmann is also a different hitter than Thomas.