Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Article: Mauer’s Myths: The Hero Minnesota Didn’t Deserve

joe mauer kirby puckett rod carew harmon killebrew
  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#21 Thebigalguy

Thebigalguy

    Elizabethton

  • Members
  • 30 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:47 AM

His average with runners in scoring position alone puts him in the Hall of Fame. Add his stats while catching, his .306 lifetime average, and the way he transformed himself into a Golden Glove caliber first baseman and the Hall should be a cinch if there’s a god and goddess in heaven (the verdict is still out). His team loyalty and good citizenship at a time when neither is much in evidence are intangibles that should help the cause.
  • 70charger and Minny505 like this

#22 Puckett34

Puckett34

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,262 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls, SD

Posted 02 October 2018 - 10:45 AM

I'm going to miss Joe Mauer.Glad I was there to witness it first hand on Sunday.

 

In regards to his HOF consideration.I think that he is at minimum worthy of consideration. Just his 9+ seasons as a catcher alone, he is worthy.

 

1st ballot does he get in? I don't think he will, and he won't. JAWS has him ranked as the 7th best catcher of all time. He is only 1 of 10 players to play at least half of his games as a backstop to collect 2,000 hits.He's literally at 50%, but still.And of those 10, 6 are Hall of Famers (Ivan Rodriguez, Carlton Fisk, Yogi Berra, Mike Piazza, Gary Carter and Johnny Bench).

 

I've never understood the argument that he hamstrung the Twins with his contract, or blamed him for signing the thing.

 

This is my long way of saying that Joe Mauer is the best pure Twins hitter I have seen in my 32 years and I don't think I'll see a better one in my lifetime. That makes me sad to type and I wish I had appreciated him more when I could.

  • glunn, Oldgoat_MN, 70charger and 4 others like this

Hit dingers.  Never bunt.


#23 twinsfanstreif

twinsfanstreif

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 612 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:08 AM

I never understood the Joe hate, he was an amazing player and an all time Twins great, I think people just wanted to blame the post season woes and losing seasons on him which is completely unfair
  • Oldgoat_MN and Nine of twelve like this

#24 RaymondLuxuryYacht

RaymondLuxuryYacht

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 258 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:10 AM

 

I'd scratch the ignorant part, but agree with him being, overall, a HOF player.

agreed.that was ignorant on my part

  • Oldgoat_MN and Minny505 like this

#25 KGB

KGB

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 485 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:49 AM

Ever since the bunt attempt in the top of the 7th inning of game 163 of a score less game to get into the playoff against the White Sox, I've always considered him more Robin than Batman. 

 

But nothing wrong with being Robin.Maybe he was the hero we deserved.


#26 tarheeltwinsfan

tarheeltwinsfan

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 800 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:54 AM

Compare Joe Mauer to Sandy Koufax. Both were injured during their prime. Koufax quit after 12 years. His 3 yearswith Brooklyn, which were mediocre, were before his 9 best years. with LA, which were outstanding. Mauer kept playing after his injuries. Mauer player 5 years of mediorce baseball (10.4 WAR) after his best years.. I contend that Mauer's 10 best years as a catcher were so superior to any other catchers' 10 years (3 batting titles by a catcher- never been done before), that they compare to Koufax's 9 best years as a pitcher in relation to other pitchers. Did Koufax, as dominant as he was, ever do anything that no other pitcher has done before or since? No. I admit Koufax was dominant at his position for 9 years, but so was Joe Mauer for 10 years, in relation to all other catchers in the history of MLB. If Koufax deserves to be in the HOF (and he certainly does), then so does Joe Mauer (and he certainly does).

  • glunn, Oldgoat_MN, 70charger and 3 others like this

#27 brightside

brightside

    Elizabethton

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:55 AM

Isn't the HOF ballot based off the players best 10 year stretch?

If you include Joe's first 9 years as catcher - that alone is enough
Last year (2017) hitting .305 and playing gold glove defense with a 3.4 WAR- as his 10th year.

I feel like this alone adds up to his HOF resume. 

Some more stats that some may find interesting:

Mauer ranks 5th all time as a 1B in Fielding Percentage

 

Statistic Description: Fielding Percentage (Putouts + Assists) / (Putouts + Assists + Error

He ranks 5th behind Casey Kotchman, Kevin Youkillis, Travis Lee, and Mark Texeira. He is just ahead of Doug Mientkewicz (who we all agree was great defensively at 1B at # 6) Goldschmidt, Helton, Smoak and Morneau at #10. 

 

Not bad for a position move due to career changing concussions that hit toward the peak of his career. 


HOFVoting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

I would say that Joe was playing the majority of his career and excelling during the steroid error- all while being one of the best players in spite of the competition juicing. Joe is as clean a player as they come both on and off the field. This shouldn't be discounted. 
 

 

  • Oldgoat_MN, tarheeltwinsfan and gagu like this

#28 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,468 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 12:48 PM

His contract never bothered me. The economics of baseball, clearly re-affirmed here, are what they are.

His lack of RBI was frustrating when you look at his batting numbers and RISP AVG. But the past few years, he hasn't always had a lot of guys OB in front of him. There have also been quite a few years where there was a questionable bat behind him. (Post Morneau for example).

Not every good/great hitter/player is a HR hitter. Gwynn and Boggs weren't power hitters by nature. When they tried to be, their other numbers suffered.

Why does Mauer need defending? He doesn't and I think he'd say the same thing. But sometimes, some feel a lack of a certain "something" downgrades the overall ability and effectiveness of a player and his career.

I still believe he is a HOF for his first 9 years. Unprecedented numbers and accomplishments for his position.
  • Minny505 likes this

"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

 

--Lou Brown


#29 tarheeltwinsfan

tarheeltwinsfan

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 800 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 01:12 PM

 

Compare Joe Mauer to Sandy Koufax. Both were injured during their prime. Koufax quit after 12 years. His 3 yearswith Brooklyn, which were mediocre, were before his 9 best years. with LA, which were outstanding. Mauer kept playing after his injuries. Mauer player 5 years of mediorce baseball (10.4 WAR) after his best years.. I contend that Mauer's 10 best years as a catcher were so superior to any other catchers' 10 years (3 batting titles by a catcher- never been done before), that they compare to Koufax's 9 best years as a pitcher in relation to other pitchers. Did Koufax, as dominant as he was, ever do anything that no other pitcher has done before or since? No. I admit Koufax was dominant at his position for 9 years, but so was Joe Mauer for 10 years, in relation to all other catchers in the history of MLB. If Koufax deserves to be in the HOF (and he certainly does), then so does Joe Mauer (and he certainly does).

It looks like Mauer only played 9 years as a catcher, the same # of years Koufax pitched so dominantly in LA. 9 years or 10 years at catcher, my argument above still is the same.

  • DocBauer and jimmer like this

#30 70charger

70charger

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,603 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:45 PM

 

If Joe Mauer is/was so great why is it always necessary for someone to revisit and reaffirm that Joe Mauer is so great? Greatness does not have to be proven by dredging up stats from a 100 column spreadsheet. Greatness simply "is".  

 

Is it possible you're having difficulty differentiating appreciation and rationalization?

  • old nurse, Platoon and jimmer like this

#31 JLease

JLease

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 302 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 03:40 PM

 

If Joe Mauer is/was so great why is it always necessary for someone to revisit and reaffirm that Joe Mauer is so great? Greatness does not have to be proven by dredging up stats from a 100 column spreadsheet. Greatness simply "is".For someone with so much supposed greatness Mauer had very little impact on games day after day and was in no way a presence on the field when he should have been in his prime. There is no one in the Hall who has to have a list of miscellaneous stats to justify that he is in the "Hall".

Best average with risp. 48 rbi's. Go figure. My guess..a LHB hits a flare to left and a runner on second can't score. Take one "great" season out and Joe Mauer had a nice career as a Major League baseball player. As such he is upper tier of the middle of the pack who ever played the game for any length of time but not among the "greats" who played the game. He stands out on Twins' teams of the past decade or longer because there is no one else on those teams who has even come close to star status unless you count Torii Hunter or Morneau for a couple of years so Mauer had to be hyped while performing at a journeyman level.

 

There have been people (usually ill-informed or using very limited metrics to describe what counts as being "great") bashing him for the last 10 years.

 

To suggest Mauer had little impact on games during his prime is to ignore the actual games. Dude won an MVP and by every metric and considered opinion out there he deserved it! And boy howdy there are plenty of guys in the Hall who you need to pull out stats to explain why they are there (seriously: how else do you explain how players who died before you were born got there? yank out press clippings about the actress they dated?)

 

Your RBI comment suggests you're lost in the past. Joe Mauer throughout his career got hits with runners in scoring position. that means he didn't make outs and increased his team's chances of winning. How many high OBP guys batted in front of Joe throughout his Twins career?

 

Take out Mauer's MVP season and he's still a 5-time all-star who won 2 batting titles at catcher. not that we should ignore that season just because it doesn't fit with someone's narrative, but he easily could have been on his second MVP at that point, because was as good as anyone in 2006 too. he was a great, great player and we were cheated of seeing him compete for more batting titles by the concussion. 

 

I'm happy to keep "defending" Joe Mauer, because people have been treating him unfairly (mostly in MN) ever since he signed the big extension. I was lucky enough to watch a Hall of Famer's entire career played for my favorite team, which also happened to be his favorite team too. That's something worth celebrating, and the naysayers need to get out of the Bitter Barn and come play in hay (JMO).

  • glunn, Oldgoat_MN, 70charger and 2 others like this

#32 Kelly Vance

Kelly Vance

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 467 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 03:47 PM

Bad form to dis a guy when he is taking his victory lap. 

 

 

Thanks Joe, forgive the critics

  • Puckett34, Oldgoat_MN, DocBauer and 1 other like this

#33 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Anyone got a smoke?

  • Twins Mods
  • 22,049 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 02 October 2018 - 03:55 PM

Mod note: Let's keep the Mauer stories about Mauer, and not about other posters who don't share your particular opinion.

 

Thanks.

  • Carole Keller, ashburyjohn and glunn like this

Cutting my carbs...with a pizza slicer.


#34 highlander

highlander

    Member

  • Members
  • 169 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 05:27 PM

LET'S GO JOE!!! HOF absolutely. 1st ballot no. If Joe never played 1st base his talents as a catcher put him in the HOF. To me the most amazing thing Joe did as a catcher was how he handled a pitching staff. The year he rehabbed in the minors he young uns ERA dropped 2 a game. The other thing I loved about Joe is how he took a pitch. Watch it to the mitt, brush a little dirt with his spikes, turn and spit, then settle in for the next pitch. Never showed up Blue. He gained their respect. Going to miss you Joe.
  • glunn and jimmer like this

#35 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,141 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:01 PM

Sadly, I think Mauer should have been lead off or 2nd for most of his career. Ask Morneau, Cuddyer, Young, Kubeland Thome if they appreciated Joe bating in from of them.A lot of ground out RBI and sac flies can be credited to Joe who would advance guys on the rare occasions that the guys ahead of him got on.We know he isn't a home run hitter so the low number of RBI with RISP is still indicative of guys not getting on base enough.Casilla, Punto, Everett, Hocking, Dozier are just some of the guys that Mauer batted after. Not exactly high OBP guys.  

As far as clutch the Twins had 3 of the closest pennant races in history and Mauer was fantastic in the last months of those seasons. Look at his last two months of the wild card race last year.Personally,I hope he comes back next year because even if he is not one of the best 1b batters, he is still one of the Twins best batters.

  • DocBauer, jimmer and gagu like this

 If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


#36 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,141 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:19 PM

I once watched a weekend series where the Twins scored 9 runs as a direct result of Joe getting on base or moving guys over and the net result statistically for him was 0 RBI and 1 run scored. The 4 and 5 baters (Morneau and I don't remember) got 8 RBI from a bunch of sac flies, ground outs and singles.That is why Mauer did pretty well with the runs created stat that the casual fan just doesn't recognize or appreciate much. Mauer is at #205 with lots of HOFers behind him and a lot of players ahead of him that only were ahead because they played longer.Piazza is the only catcher that was ahead of him for runs created/seasons played.I think Mauer's longevity actually hurts his case a bit. His average career stats have taken a big hit from the last 5 years.  

  • DocBauer, jimmer and gagu like this

 If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


#37 D. Hocking

D. Hocking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,167 posts

Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:24 PM

This was kind of cool:

 

Johnny Bench
@JohnnyBench_5

#joemauer was celebrated by everyone for his character, class and ability. How cool to catch that last game. Wish it had been more! @Twins @MLB

 

 

  • ashburyjohn, glunn, Twins33 and 4 others like this

#38 Nine of twelve

Nine of twelve

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Members
  • 1,178 posts
  • LocationEarth, for the time being

Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:30 PM

 

Mauer’s first ten seasons in the majors was one of the greatest runs by any catcher in baseball history. From 2004 through 2013 he hit .323/.405/.468 for a OPS+ of 138 and accumulated 42.9 fWAR, three batting titles, three Gold Gloves, five all star appearances, five silver sluggers,and an MVP trophy. (A good chunk of that was written by Sickels, I added some info).

 

Mauer was a FANTASTIC player from 2004-2013.The offense he was able to put up while playing quality defense at the most physically demanding position (catcher) was incredible.

This. And catcher is not just the most physically demanding position it's also the most mentally demanding position. The fact that he hit the way he did while being outstanding as a catcher is why he was the best baseball player in the world over those ten seasons. And that includes Albert Pujols.

  • jimmer likes this

#39 Ebby Calvin Laloosh

Ebby Calvin Laloosh

    Elizabethton

  • Members
  • 29 posts
  • LocationPDX

Posted 03 October 2018 - 08:08 AM

Maybe the prettiest swing I've seen in my lifetime. A work of art. I watch baseball for things like his swing, Santana's change-up, and Mike Trout's Mike Troutness...Thanks Joe!

  • Carole Keller, ashburyjohn, glunn and 4 others like this

#40 70charger

70charger

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,603 posts

Posted 03 October 2018 - 11:02 AM

 

This was kind of cool:

 

Super cool. I'm a big Johnny Bench fan (the Reds are, sadly, my NL team). I think Mauer belongs in that same catching pantheon.

  • Carole Keller likes this



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: joe mauer, kirby puckett, rod carew, harmon killebrew