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#41 Dozier's Glorious Hair

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 07:38 PM

 

See Cubs for 100 plus years. Ask those fans your question lol

 

And you can be sure those die-hard Cubs fans that rolled with their team through thick and thin enjoyed that World Series win a heck of a lot more than the fair-weather guys.:)

 

 

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#42 ewen21

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 06:36 AM

 

Posts like this interest me greatly, and it does seem to be the prevailing opinion.

 

What I don't understand is how the prevailing opinion was the opposite when Terry Ryan was around. It was always "Give it time" whereas the majority wants to give up on the new group after basically one year.

 

I don't want to dig on Ryan any more than we all have already, but I really don't get this huge change in viewpoint. Ryan gutted the team for years, and this F.O. sold expiring assets at the trade deadline in a lost season.

 

Of course, we'll see how things look in another six months... but for now there isn't much to be down about.

Ryan gutted the team?He really never did that.All he did was let guys walk when they became free agents.People refer to gutting the team as a means to completely change the system, and that surely needs to happen.

 

It needs to start with Joe Mauer.This organization will never be able to function at an optimal level with Mauer being designated as some Minnesota figurehead player who has his own set of rules. If he were a leader and held himself to a very high standard that would not be much of a problem.Joe has been gingerly playing the game of baseball for a number of years right now.He cannot be held up as an example for young players.He is completely unrelatable.His reality is a Minnesota Twin is like no other.

 

Move on from Joe and see how much things change.It is not like we need Joe Mauer.He is a replacable part at this point, and indeed, he needs to be viewed as such.

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#43 Original Whizzinator

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 07:12 AM

I haven't read that anybody has completely given up on the FO. It's ok to criticize the current group for their failings. I agree that moving expiring contracts at the deadline was probably the right move, but we also need to acknowledge that this FO played in a part in the Twins becoming sellers.

About six key players either horribly underperformed, were injured or out because they got caught cheating. Everybody was excited entering this season after their off-season moves except the Darvish or bust set and how did that turn out? The number one culprit in the pre deadline poor performance of this club is hands down the players.
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#44 Original Whizzinator

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 07:33 AM

The only way i see this team really competing is with a stocked farm that develops well. Armchair GM's with itchy trigger fingers blurt out "trade" "top dog free agent" but at best those crap shoots can only supplement. Acquiring young talent is another crap shoot that is why I like the way this FO has added at every opportunity. As a result our farm system rating has risen. Isn't this the best indicator of their performance so far? If you look at the amount of talent brought in in their 2 years and extrapolate that over a few more we might have the start of a pipeline that could create the kind of roster competition that would excite.
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#45 drivlikejehu

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 07:44 AM

 

Yes, but you missed the point completely. The point is, why was sucking with no clear path to a good future considered acceptable just five years ago? People got their heads torn off for criticizing management in any way. What changed?

 

Nothing has baffled me more on this board since Falvey was hired. I'd been critical of the Ryan regime for many years, going back to a predecessor forum to this one. The reaction from most posters was strongly disapproving of that criticism, to say the least, even as the Twins organization fell apart. A decent subset of posters here backed Ryan through the bitter end of his tenure.

 

As soon as Falvey was hired, a switch flipped, and criticism of the front office became the default position. The minority's prior criticism of Ryan had to be supported fully to avoid being virtually shouted down . . . now, criticism of Falvey is presumed legitimate even when its completely divorced from reality.

 

I have no personal connection to Falvey or Levine . . . never met them, don't know their friends and family, etc. For me, it was the same circumstances as before - evaluate the front office objectively, giving due consideration to the constraints any Twins front office faces.

 

That approach now makes someone a Falvey partisan by comparison to the default position of blaming everything on Falvey, who took over one of the worst organizations in baseball two years ago.

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#46 notoriousgod71

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 08:03 AM

This organization has built up so much bad will (for me) that I still won't believe in them if they win 95 games and the division next year.

 

Last year, they were a decent enough team but the only time I made it a point to watch or get excited was when Bartolo dazzled us with 5.1 innings and 4 earned runs every fifth day.

 

It's an extremely boring team that is not good and does not show signs of being good any time soon.


#47 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 08:20 AM

 

Two or three will only move the needle if they are move the needle type players.

The Twins traded for/signed 5 veteran players last offseason (6 if you count Sanchez). It moved the needle alright. The wrong way.

Anibal Sanchez has had a great year for the Braves. He has pitched >125 innings this year and has an FIP of 3.61 (which is lower than any Twins starter) and an ERA+ of 135 (which is higher than any Twins starter).

Sadly, that was easily their best FA signing of the off-season.

Edited by Oldgoat_MN, 23 September 2018 - 08:21 AM.

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#48 ashburyjohn

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 02:19 PM

Anibal Sanchez has had a great year for the Braves. He has pitched >125 innings this year and has an FIP of 3.61 (which is lower than any Twins starter) and an ERA+ of 135 (which is higher than any Twins starter).

Sadly, that was easily their best FA signing of the off-season.

I keep thinking that talent evaluation is a big problem in this organization. Sanchez might be an instructive example: apparently one group of evaluators, looking at outside talent, decided he was worth a try. Once inside the system, presumably a different group of evaluators quickly decided, "nope, he can't help".

 

Seems like a developing pattern of mis-guessing on pitchers inside the system. Dereck Rogriguez, JT Chargois. The guys doing the evaluating up-close say to pass.

 

But then I remember Tyler Kinley and Justin Haley, guys where the outside evaluators had a chance to shine. So I just don't know where the problem resides. But the overall pattern of success and failure looks not much better than if I gave it a shot just from looking at stats and public rankings.

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#49 yarnivek1972

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 02:41 PM

Problem with Sanchez is that he was hurt right at the time when this team was treading water in the standings. If they don’t have Lynn because they think they have Sanchez, who makes those starts?

#50 ashburyjohn

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 03:04 PM

Problem with Sanchez is that he was hurt right at the time when this team was treading water in the standings. If they don’t have Lynn because they think they have Sanchez, who makes those starts?

:confused: The Twins cut bait with him on March 11. Not sure where the Twins stood in the Grapefruit League standings on that day. :)

 

There's always the DL if 25-man roster issues are forecast to be a problem.

 

Sanchez made his first appearance for the Braves on April 2. Looks like the DL didn't turn out to be needed.

A painter should not paint what he sees, but what will be seen.-- Paul Valery


#51 yarnivek1972

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 03:11 PM

:confused: The Twins cut bait with him on March 11. Not sure where the Twins stood in the Grapefruit League standings on that day. :)

There's always the DL if 25-man roster issues are forecast to be a problem.

Sanchez made his first appearance for the Braves on April 2. Looks like the DL didn't turn out to be needed.


No idea what you are talking about.

Sanchez was on the DL from mid April through basically the end of May.

As I said, let’s say the Twins decide (in March) they don’t need Lynn because they have Sanchez. Who starts those 6 games during a time when the Twins were already struggling?

Edited by yarnivek1972, 23 September 2018 - 03:14 PM.


#52 Mike Sixel

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 08:59 PM

And you can be sure those die-hard Cubs fans that rolled with their team through thick and thin enjoyed that World Series win a heck of a lot more than the fair-weather guys. :)


You know this how? There is no good reason to spend money on bad products. Or time.

I remain hopeful on Buxton and Sano.....but I'd not bet the franchise on them.


#53 Dozier's Glorious Hair

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 10:41 PM

 

You know this how? There is no good reason to spend money on bad products. Or time.

 

Common sense and personal experience tell me so (I'm a die-hard fan of some sports, a fair-weather in others. You feel the "highs" and "lows" more acutely as a die-hard.)

 

I've never been to a Twins game that I didn't enjoy - even during seasons where they struggled mightily. I've also never watched or listened to a Twins game that I didn't enjoy. I love the game, I love the team. So, I guess I've never considered them a "bad product" (these are people we're talking about, by the way, not a defective toaster).

 

It's obviously your prerogative if you wish to no longer invest any more time/money on this team, although judging from your 26,000+ posts, you seem to have spent an awful lot of time on a "product" that's been mostly bad for the past 8 seasons. You do you, though. Me? I'll happily continue to support the team. 

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#54 Tomj14

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 07:50 AM

 

Yes, but you missed the point completely. The point is, why was sucking with no clear path to a good future considered acceptable just five years ago? People got their heads torn off for criticizing management in any way. What changed?

I would say 5 years ago wasn't much different than today. The path was in the minors.

2013 top prospects were.

Sano, Hicks, Arcia, Buxton, Gibson, Rosario, Meyer, Berrios, Kepler, May, Harrison, Melotakis, Bard, Benson, Polanco, Goodrum, Chargois, Jones, Tonkin, Walker.

 

Now that group is up and/or gone the Twins are hoping for the next group from the minors to save the day.  

 

If the next group turns out as good as the 2013 group and it isn't supplemented with some other talent 2023 will look like 2018.

 


#55 RatherBeGolfing

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 07:52 AM

Sadly, it has become the norm around here to feel that way. Just general apathy


#56 Doomtints

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 08:22 AM

 

Ryan gutted the team?He really never did that.All he did was let guys walk when they became free agents. 

 

 

November 29, 2012: Denard Span traded by the Minnesota Twins to the Washington Nationals for Alex Meyer.

December 6, 2012: Ben Revere traded by the Minnesota Twins to the Philadelphia Phillies for Trevor May and Vance Worley.

Tell me, how many years did it take for the Twins to field a team that could play outfield defense after this? How many games did the Twins lose while us fans watched routine balls drop in the outfield? Aaron Hicks was the only outfielder the Twins had who could play out there, and he looked completely lost at the plate. How did the pitching fare while the Twins waited for these pitching prospects to learn how to play? How many of the pitchers worked out as expected?

 

Team. Gutted. For. Years.

Edited by Doomtints, 24 September 2018 - 08:43 AM.


#57 Doomtints

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 08:38 AM

 

And you can be sure those die-hard Cubs fans that rolled with their team through thick and thin enjoyed that World Series win a heck of a lot more than the fair-weather guys.:)

 

The Cubs had a lot of winning seasons in the past 20 years. The Cardinals just had their number. The level of suck Twins fans endured has been bigger, it just gets less press.

 

Cubs fans today are saying the Cubs have proven that the tear down and rebuild model -- which the Cubs had been doing -- has been proven bunk. As they watch other teams ebb and flow, they take pride in now being one of the teams that has sustained success. Cubs fans tend to be very savvy about baseball, mind you, putting us to shame in a lot of ways. I often call them a cult.

Edited by Doomtints, 24 September 2018 - 08:42 AM.


#58 Number3

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 08:45 AM

Unless the Twins fire Molitor and bring in a manager who acts (even if it is an act) like they actually care about winning baseball games I don't care what they do player wise in 2019. Guess what Texas just did?


#59 Doomtints

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 08:45 AM

 

 

Nothing has baffled me more on this board since Falvey was hired. I'd been critical of the Ryan regime for many years, going back to a predecessor forum to this one. The reaction from most posters was strongly disapproving of that criticism, to say the least, even as the Twins organization fell apart. A decent subset of posters here backed Ryan through the bitter end of his tenure..

 

The skeptical side of me thinks this is all a matter of access. When one group lets you sit on the sideline and another doesn't, well....

 

It's just a reminder that we are not impartial journalists around here. We are fans.


#60 Doomtints

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 08:50 AM

 

 

I would say 5 years ago wasn't much different than today. The path was in the minors.

2013 top prospects were.

Sano, Hicks, Arcia, Buxton, Gibson, Rosario, Meyer, Berrios, Kepler, May, Harrison, Melotakis, Bard, Benson, Polanco, Goodrum, Chargois, Jones, Tonkin, Walker.

 

Now that group is up and/or gone the Twins are hoping for the next group from the minors to save the day.  

 

If the next group turns out as good as the 2013 group and it isn't supplemented with some other talent 2023 will look like 2018.

 

I disagree. The Twins had no foundation back then. Now they do. They have some pitchers who can pitch, they have some people who can play defense, they have a couple of people who can hit. At this point it's all a matter of filling in the gaps.

 

Last year the approach to filling in gaps was, "Let's beat Cleveland." This year they can focus on how to beat everybody. It will probably work out better.