Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Article: MIN 6, DET 1: Stewart Impresses, Rosario Exits Due to Injury

kohl stewart eddie rosario jake cave
  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#21 AceWrigley

AceWrigley

    Elizabethton

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:01 AM

Kohl Stewart might become someone like Mike Torrrez in the 70's and 80's. Pitched from the middle of the rotation somewhere, made all his starts, ate innings, and generally gave his team a chance to win. Won a ring with the '77 Yankees (the Mr. October series against the Dodgers), winning 2 games. Won 20 games once. Had a couple of pretty rough seasons. Guys like this help solidify a starting rotation.

  • birdwatcher, beckmt, LA VIkes Fan and 3 others like this

#22 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 14,256 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:08 AM

 

If you want something that says that the new FO has changed development practices with Stewart, look at his progression. He actually started striking people out this year.

Perhaps. Still not sure how much of that was simply due to repeating the level (3rd year at AA), plus of course rising K rates all over pro baseball. Stewart's K rate was only average this year in his 3rd go-around at AA (23.1% vs league 23.0%), and it was well below average at AAA (17.5% vs 22.0%), and of course again in MLB (13.8% vs 22.2%).

  • birdwatcher and rghrbek like this

#23 Shaitan

Shaitan

    Chattanooga Lookouts

  • Members
  • 816 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:16 AM

Is Stewart a minor league FA this year?


#24 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,972 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:16 AM

The opener vs. starter topic is pretty cut and dry to me. Did Stewart start the game? Since the answer is no, he's not a starter. Did the strategy work out this particular game? Yes.

What does that mean going forward with Stewart's evaluation? Is he going to continue being a primary pitcher? Why don't all starting pitchers use an opener? I'm sure Berrios could benefit entering the game against the opponent's #5 or #6 batter too.

I think what motivates the strategy isn't "what's best for Kohl Stewart?" nor "what's best for Jose Berrios?", but "what's the best way to handle the top of the opponent's lineup?"

 

Facing batters a third time seems to be a defining mark for a multi-innings pitcher. If Berrios at a disadvantage the third time through is still better than a lesser pitcher who is fresh, then let him pitch inning #1. If Stewart needs all the help he can get, at this stage of his career perhaps, then let a specialist try to pave the way for him.

  • DocBauer and MN_ExPat like this

A painter should not paint what he sees, but what will be seen.-- Paul Valery


#25 Rosterman

Rosterman

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,109 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:17 AM

Spring training will be a tell. Pineda, because he didn't end the season pitching innings, can likely start in rehab in the minors...with the Twins fuming about the $$$ investment. Mejia will get the biggest opportunity, especially since he is a lefty. But the Red Wings rotation looks pretty solid right now...someone will not make it there!

 

Joel Thingvall
www.joelthingvall.com
rosterman at www.twinscards.com


#26 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 14,256 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:17 AM

 

Kohl Stewart might become someone like Mike Torrrez in the 70's and 80's. Pitched from the middle of the rotation somewhere, made all his starts, ate innings, and generally gave his team a chance to win.

Of course, Torrez had durability that Stewart has yet to demonstrate (and may not be able to, in the modern game). Torrez was top-14 for inning pitched in the AL for 5 straight seasons, reaching as high as 6th.

 

Without the durability, I'm not sure how valuable that performance would generally be. It might be more like Jake Odorizzi's 2017-2018 in the modern game in terms of value.


#27 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 14,256 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:18 AM

 

Is Stewart a minor league FA this year?

No, he's on the 40-man roster.

 

Players are only eligible for minor league free agency after they've had their contracts renewed 6 times (so played in 7 pro seasons) and aren't currrently on a 40-man roster.

 

Drafted in 2013, Stewart would not have been eligible until after the 2019 season anyway. He still could be eligible after 2019 if we remove him from the 40-man before that time (and assuming another team wouldn't claim him on waivers for their own 40-man).

Edited by spycake, 18 September 2018 - 08:21 AM.

  • ashburyjohn, bluechipper and Shaitan like this

#28 slash129

slash129

    Member

  • Banned
  • 862 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:31 AM

 

I'm sure Berrios could benefit entering the game against the opponent's #5 or #6 batter too.

 

I agree, but I doubt they want to mess with his routine at this point. The routines of the new guys are all fluid as they take their looks.

 


#29 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Opener Poster

  • Members
  • 10,956 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:43 AM

I agree, but I doubt they want to mess with his routine at this point. The routines of the new guys are all fluid as they take their looks.


They don't seem to care about Odorizzi's routine... Some days he starts. Other days he's the primary pitcher.

Since this is a hot new concept I'm trying to understand the logic. They're using openers to supplement marginal pitchers like Odorizzi, Stewart, etc. So those pitchers enter the game starting with the opponent's 4, 5, or 6 batter.

By that same logic, Berrios should be even better if he also has an opener. He could pitch 7-8 innings and theoretically have a better ERA because he's also at an advantage.

So why don't we have 162 opener starts next year because all of our primary pitchers will have better stats and stay in the game longer? Berrios with a 2.5 ERA is better than Berrios who starts and has a 3.5 ERA.

#30 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 14,256 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:47 AM

 

They don't seem to care about Odorizzi's routine... Some days he starts. Other days he's the primary pitcher.

Odorizzi has started all 30 of his games this year. He has not been used as a "primary" after an opener yet.

  • Danchat and Doctor Wu like this

#31 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Opener Poster

  • Members
  • 10,956 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:50 AM

Odorizzi has started all 30 of his games this year. He has not been used as a "primary" after an opener yet.


Gotcha. I'm not paying close attention anymore clearly.

#32 jtkoupal

jtkoupal

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 269 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:53 AM

 

How do you evaluate a primary pitcher like Stewart? There's a reason why they use an opener for him right? Is the hope he can be an actual starting pitcher next season?

Someone tell me how I'm supposed to feel.

 

You evaluate him the same. He threw 6 very good innings. What does it matter if those innings are 1-6 or 2-7? 

  • DocBauer likes this

#33 caninatl04

caninatl04

    Chattanooga Lookouts

  • Members
  • 601 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:54 AM

 

Oh my god Kohl Stewart for Cy Young 2019. L.M.M.F.A.O.

Its a lock!

And Kepler wins the batting title with a .390 average.

And the Twins sweep the Yankees in the playoffs.

Amen.

  • Doctor Wu likes this

#34 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Opener Poster

  • Members
  • 10,956 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:56 AM

You evaluate him the same. He threw 6 very good innings. What does it matter if those innings are 1-6 or 2-7?


Everything, IMO. Otherwise this opener concept wouldn't be a thing. He's not trusted to be a starting pitcher and needs assistance to get the TOUGH outs in the 1st inning.
  • ashburyjohn likes this

#35 slash129

slash129

    Member

  • Banned
  • 862 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 09:15 AM

For the record, I didn't like the opener concept, but now I just don't care.I guess getting outs = getting outs. 

 

But also, for the record, I've gotten to a point, especially this season, where I'm not going by wins vs losses as success.I go by wins + losses where the tying run is at the plate at the end vs. all other losses. 

 

Lowering the bar is an easy way to find satisfaction. 


#36 laloesch

laloesch

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,717 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 09:44 AM

 

You evaluate him the same. He threw 6 very good innings. What does it matter if those innings are 1-6 or 2-7? 

 

I am encouraged by the last outing.He has shown progression something i hope Gonsalves does at some point. 

 

I will gladly eat crow on Stewart.I was not impressed with his 2017 minor league numbers, but he does appear to have the pure stuff, whereas Gonsalves appears to be a nibbler. 

 

I like this approach they have been taking with him lately.Let someone else start the first inning and bring him in on a reduced pressure setting and settle in.Eventually if he keeps improving he can move up and make traditional starts.

  • ashburyjohn, beckmt, jtkoupal and 1 other like this

#37 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Opener Poster

  • Members
  • 10,956 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 18 September 2018 - 10:01 AM

Lowering the bar is an easy way to find satisfaction.


We found a winner for the 2019 Twins season slogan.
  • ashburyjohn, USAFChief, Mike Sixel and 6 others like this

#38 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,559 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 10:51 AM

I still have a difficult time with the entire concept of an opener. In theory, I finally understand it, your 1st pitcher throws ONE IP to delay the primary pitcher having to face the top of the order THREE times.

But the concept is greatly flawed to me. It's much the same as a lead off hitter only being guaranteed to lead off an inning ONE time. Hits, walks, errors all change the flow of the game, number of appearances, and when those appearances take place.

The theory is sound, in a vacuum. But in actual, real game usage, I just dont see a viable return.
  • Vanimal46, Shaitan and Tomj14 like this

"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

 

--Lou Brown


#39 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 27,564 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 10:55 AM

I still have a difficult time with the entire concept of an opener. In theory, I finally understand it, your 1st pitcher throws ONE IP to delay the primary pitcher having to face the top of the order THREE times.

But the concept is greatly flawed to me. It's much the same as a lead off hitter only being guaranteed to lead off an inning ONE time. Hits, walks, errors all change the flow of the game, number of appearances, and when those appearances take place.

The theory is sound, in a vacuum. But in actual, real game usage, I just dont see a viable return.


Lead of hitter hits first so he gets more at bats, not because teams care if he hits first in an inning. Really, it's the inverse of the opener theory.

The idea is to make it less likely your primary guy faces the best players three times, not to guarantee it.

I remain hopeful on Buxton and Sano.....but I'd not bet the franchise on them.


#40 jtkoupal

jtkoupal

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 269 posts

Posted 18 September 2018 - 11:13 AM

 

Everything, IMO. Otherwise this opener concept wouldn't be a thing. He's not trusted to be a starting pitcher and needs assistance to get the TOUGH outs in the 1st inning.

On paper, the opener strategy would be perfect for Jake Odorizzi. It's hard to adjust to that at the Major League level, which is likely why they haven't tried it with him. If I can look at his numbers and see that strategy would be beneficial for him, so can they. They know it's a good idea, but that it likely would be a disruption to start that at random in the middle of a season.

 

Eventually, there may be an era in baseball where there are no more traditional starting pitchers. Changes like that don't happen overnight. Personally, I think the response by opponents needs to be to stack the best hitters at the bottom, negating the advantage to facing the bottom of the lineup the third time instead of the top.




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: kohl stewart, eddie rosario, jake cave