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Article: Learning Leadership from Chris Gimenez

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#41 Eris

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 07:04 PM

Torii Hunter switched teams via free agency 4 times.With the Twins his highest WAR was 4.2.His career high WAR was 4.7 in 2012 (Angels).He accumulated 42.7 WAR over 17 seasons (average 2.5 WAR/season).Over the period from 1999 to 2015 he ranks 31st in total WAR. I have compared the records of the teams during switch years.The numbers in parenthesis is the comparison in wins to the following year.

 

2007/2008 Twins(+6) Angels(+7)

2012/2013 Angels(-11) Tigers(+5)

2014/2015 Tigers(-16) Twins(+13)

2015/2016 Twins(-24)

 

 

3 out of 4 times the team that Torii Hunter left did worse the following year.Every team he went to did better.Is this because Torii Hunter was a great player, or because Torii Hunter was a great club house leader?I think it is because he was a great club house leader.Leadership matters a lot.

 

 


#42 Mike Sixel

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 07:11 PM

Torii Hunter switched teams via free agency 4 times. With the Twins his highest WAR was 4.2. His career high WAR was 4.7 in 2012 (Angels). He accumulated 42.7 WAR over 17 seasons (average 2.5 WAR/season). Over the period from 1999 to 2015 he ranks 31st in total WAR. I have compared the records of the teams during switch years. The numbers in parenthesis is the comparison in wins to the following year.

2007/2008 Twins(+6) Angels(+7)
2012/2013 Angels(-11) Tigers(+5)
2014/2015 Tigers(-16) Twins(+13)
2015/2016 Twins(-24)


3 out of 4 times the team that Torii Hunter left did worse the following year. Every team he went to did better. Is this because Torii Hunter was a great player, or because Torii Hunter was a great club house leader? I think it is because he was a great club house leader. Leadership matters a lot.


How did they do in year two and three?

I remain hopeful on Buxton and Sano.....but I'd not bet the franchise on them.


#43 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 05:33 AM

 

I know that the moderator wants to limit the discussion, but in fact, this thread reallydoes represent the frustration of the fans and is a healthy outlet for that frustration. 

There's no desire to limit discussion. The desire is to eliminate the portrayal of unfounded speculation as fact as well as the tendency of some to disparage character. 

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#44 Sconnie

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 07:14 AM

Great interview Ted! If you get a chance, please pass along my thanks to Mr. Giminez for his insights.

Generally for anyone to comment.

At my place work, part of our development plans is identifying leadership activities and concepts to work on. This happens at every level of the organization, from the CEO to the Janitors.

There’s been some chatter from the FO that they may have found the threshold to the “too many one year contracts” and its effects on a baseball franchise.

Is it just that this years team is too mercenary? Kind of an odd solution to trade for a rental to gain leadership...

#45 spycake

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 08:02 AM

Torii Hunter switched teams via free agency 4 times. With the Twins his highest WAR was 4.2. His career high WAR was 4.7 in 2012 (Angels). He accumulated 42.7 WAR over 17 seasons (average 2.5 WAR/season). Over the period from 1999 to 2015 he ranks 31st in total WAR. I have compared the records of the teams during switch years. The numbers in parenthesis is the comparison in wins to the following year.

2007/2008 Twins(+6) Angels(+7)
2012/2013 Angels(-11) Tigers(+5)
2014/2015 Tigers(-16) Twins(+13)
2015/2016 Twins(-24)


3 out of 4 times the team that Torii Hunter left did worse the following year. Every team he went to did better. Is this because Torii Hunter was a great player, or because Torii Hunter was a great club house leader? I think it is because he was a great club house leader. Leadership matters a lot.


Way too many variables, and way too small of a sample, to quantify Hunter's leadership from this data.

Just an example, your analysis implies we should give Hunter's leadership partial credit for Victor Martinez being +7.1 bWAR better in 2014 than in 2015, or Pujols being +3.3 bWAR better in 2012 than he was in 2013, or Verlander staying healthy in 2014 but getting hurt in 2015, or Anibal Sanchez starting +17 games for the 2013 Tigers over 2012, or Ervin Santana being +5.5 bWAR in 2008 over 2007, etc. (Beyond any defensive credit behind the pitchers, of course.)

I'm open to the idea of leadership as a meaningful factor, but it's this kind of analysis and conclusions that would actually turn me the other way on the issue.
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#46 Section234HHHMet

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 10:16 AM

Great to hear from Chris G on TD and appreciate him taking time to share his experience/perspective.

At this point in the season, it seems beneficial to carry a player like Chris G on the club who can lead by example even if he is going to be neither high production nor long term contributor on the field.  

However, earlier in the season I do have some questions prioritizing veteran leadership over on field production. Many would argue that managers account for very little difference in a teams' ultimate W/L record.It seems that veteran leadership is unlikely to contribute more than a manager. Certainly a veteran leader who is producing at a high level bring value in both production and leadership. Later career of Tori Hunter or Jim Thome are obvious examples of win/win with production and veteran presence. There is a cost for carrying a player on the roster primarily for leadership purposes. The production of Hunter and Thome alone justified their roster place. You could add a great coach to to dougout, but they can't produce on field.The leadership from Tori/Thome was an added bonus on their production which came at no roster cost.

My question for Twins Daily:

To what extent can a player/club house leader on the roster be more effective than a former-player/non-roster coach?

 


#47 Doomtints

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 11:46 AM

Everyone who has ever worked more than one job knows how effective leaders influence organizations.

 

There always has been and always will be people in baseball circles who will die on the hill insisting that such a thing doesn't exist. They demand hard evidence. Yet soft sciences are real -- businesses run on them, universities teach them, and we all experience them. We can't put a gauge on language development but we can learn a thing or two about it and be predictive about it, same with countless other fields, processes, and products.

 

What people don't realize they are saying is that baseball teams don't need leaders, and of course that's not true. No one says these words directly, but when people argue this point this is ultimately what they are arguing without realizing that's what they are arguing. No leaders = no coaches, no mentors, no managers, no collaboration.

 

I would argue that Torii's leadership style was counter to what people think of as leadership. He is in the work/life balance camp. Work hard, but also take the time to blow off steam and to put that extra energy into letting your guard down. This is a good philosophy for a job that has a countless 12-hour days in half a year. Sure Hunter helped with baseball skills, but every team has people to do that.

Edited by Doomtints, 15 September 2018 - 11:48 AM.

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#48 S.

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 02:47 PM

 

3 out of 4 times the team that Torii Hunter left did worse the following year.Every team he went to did better.Is this because Torii Hunter was a great player, or because Torii Hunter was a great club house leader?I think it is because he was a great club house leader.Leadership matters a lot.

This completely disregards any other changes to the rosters. And as spycake pointed out, it disregards any improvements or regression from existing players on those rosters. Basically, it proves nothing in any capacity.


#49 Eris

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 05:22 PM

There are several academic papers that have attempted to quantify the importance of leadership attributes.

 

I have copied what I consider to be the relevant portions of the research below.I have linked the research paper for those who are interested in reading this.The results suggest that social cohesion and social networking are correlated with a teams success.The role of team leaders is to promote these attributes.  

 

The Relationship Among Athlete Leadership Behaviors and Cohesion in Team Sports
Diana J.E. Vincer and Todd M. Loughead, University of Windsor

http://citeseerx.ist...p=rep1&type=pdf

 

This study examined the influence of athlete leadership behaviors on perceptions
of team cohesion. The participants were 312 athletes from 25 varsity and club level
teams. Each participant completed the Group Environment Questionnaire (Carron,
Widmeyer, & Brawley, 1985) that assessed cohesion and the Leadership Scale
for Sports (Chelladurai & Saleh, 1980) that assessed athlete leadership behaviors.
Overall, it was found that individual perceptions of Training and Instruction, and
Social Support positively influenced all four dimensions of cohesion (ATG-T,
ATG-S, GI–T, GI-S). Furthermore, Autocratic Behavior was negatively associated
with the four dimensions of cohesion. Finally, Democratic Behavior was positively
related to ATG-T. These findings provide researchers, sport psychology consultants,
athletes, and coaches with some initial evidence that it is important to foster
the development of athlete leader behaviors to influence the team environment.

 

Note. ATG-T = Individual attractions to the group-task, ATG-S = Individual attractions to the groupsocial,
GI-T = Group integration-task, GI-S = Group integration-social. TI = Training and instruction,
DB = Democratic behavior, AB = Autocratic behavior, SS = Social support, PF = Positive feedback.

 

The first aspect pertaining to the results is the positive relationship between
athlete leader behaviors and cohesion. Based on the operational definitions of the
subscales of cohesion and leadership, the results suggested that athlete leaders who
demonstrated leadership behaviors toward improving performance through rigorous
training and instruction and showed an increased amount of concern for the team
member’s welfare had teammates who perceived a higher sense involvement in the
productivity of team goals, of personal acceptance and social interactions within
their team, of similarity, closeness, and unity within the group around the team’s
task objectives, and to their team as a social unit.The results of the present supplement the Dupuis et al. (2006) finding by suggesting that the leadership behaviors of Training and Instruction, and

Social Support can positively influence a team’s cohesiveness both at a task and
social level. Thus, it is important for athlete leaders to use high levels of Training
and Instruction, and Social Support behaviors.

 

A second point pertains to the negative relationship between the athlete leader
behavior of Autocratic Behavior and all four dimensions of cohesion. Previous
coaching leadership research has shown that this leadership behavior is negatively
related to both task and social cohesion (e.g., Gardner et al., 1996). Thus, the athletes’
perception of their cohesiveness (i.e., team’s productivity toward their goals
and their personal acceptance within the team) was lower when they felt their athlete
leaders taking a more authoritative role in the decision making process. This negative
relationship between Autocratic Behavior and cohesion (task and social) may
be viewed from a cohesion perspective as the athletes feeling a decreased sense
of closeness, bonding, personal involvement, and personal acceptance with their
teammates. Consequently, it would appear that autocratic type of athlete leadership
behaviors can detract from a team’s cohesiveness.

 

2nd Article

TIES, LEADERS, AND TIME IN TEAMS: STRONG INFERENCE ABOUT NETWORK STRUCTURE’S EFFECTS ON TEAM VIABILITY AND PERFORMANCE
PRASAD BALKUNDI State University of New York at Buffalo
DAVID A. HARRISON The Pennsylvania State University

 

(PDF available at Research gate https://www.research...nd_performance)

 

How do members’ and leaders’ social network structures help or hinder team effectiveness? A meta-analysis of 37 studies of teams in natural contexts suggests that teams with densely configured interpersonal ties attain their goals better and are more committed to staying together; that is, team task performance and viability are both higher.Further, teams with leaders who are central in the teams’ intragroup networks and teams that are central in their intergroup network tend to perform better. Time sequencing, member familiarity, and tie content moderate structure-performance connections. Results suggest stronger incorporation of social network concepts into theories about team effectiveness.

 

Edited by Eris, 15 September 2018 - 05:26 PM.

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#50 Sconnie

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 06:12 AM

Everyone who has ever worked more than one job knows how effective leaders influence organizations.

There always has been and always will be people in baseball circles who will die on the hill insisting that such a thing doesn't exist. They demand hard evidence. Yet soft sciences are real -- businesses run on them, universities teach them, and we all experience them. We can't put a gauge on language development but we can learn a thing or two about it and be predictive about it, same with countless other fields, processes, and products.

What people don't realize they are saying is that baseball teams don't need leaders, and of course that's not true. No one says these words directly, but when people argue this point this is ultimately what they are arguing without realizing that's what they are arguing. No leaders = no coaches, no mentors, no managers, no collaboration.

I would argue that Torii's leadership style was counter to what people think of as leadership. He is in the work/life balance camp. Work hard, but also take the time to blow off steam and to put that extra energy into letting your guard down. This is a good philosophy for a job that has a countless 12-hour days in half a year. Sure Hunter helped with baseball skills, but every team has people to do that.

couldn’t agree more, but when you are hiring an accountant, you don’t look at your pool of applicants and say “he’s entirely unqualified, but let’s hire him anyways: just look at the leadership”

You hire the most qualified accountant and use leadership attributes as the tie breaker.

I suppose there’s this pool of relievers in the x dollar range or catchers in the y dollar range and Levine recruits and signs the one that checks the most boxes and he can come to an agreement to price.

It doesn’t sound like that, it sounds like the FO is seeking out leaders specifically, which we know the old adage about too many cooks spoiling the soup.

I agree that leadership is important, but there’s a gap in my understanding of how it fits in the acquisition of talent and outcomes on the field. There was another poster that pointed out, and I agree, that leadership doesn’t directly impact individual players. If all Buxton needed to pull it all together to be a superstar, he’d have his mentor by now.
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#51 Eris

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 10:59 AM

 

 If all Buxton needed to pull it all together to be a superstar, he’d have his mentor by now.

 

It is more complicated than this, although I don't understand why.This is why leadership is such an intangible.There was a lot written on TD as well as others venues about the impact Torii Hunter had on Aaron Hicks.Many of the discussions and questions about batting performance for Hicks can be applied to Buxton.I have linked several of these articles below. Why was Torii Hunter able to help Aaron Hicks reach his potential, when the Twins coaches and manager could not.It is not as if they were not trying.  

 

http://twinsdaily.co...-his-potential/

 

https://nypost.com/2...ed-aaron-hicks/

 

https://nypost.com/2...re-aaron-hicks/

 

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#52 ewen21

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 12:13 PM

 

I’m surprised that you have that much personal information about Jeter. I want good players and will worry about leadership later. Your mileage may vary.

The education of Linus Van Pelt continues


#53 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 01:20 PM

Leadership matters. FO, managerial, and club house. The Washington Nationals are an organization that doesn’t appear to have any. There have been many articles written. Here is a summary.
https://www.google.c...rs-leaks-trades

There was also the incident a few years ago when the Nationals hired Bud Black to be manager, then inexplicably low-balled him in the salary negotiation, so much so that Black withdrew.

#54 Doomtints

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 02:26 PM

Speaking of that, let's bring in Dusty Baker.


#55 Sconnie

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 06:10 PM

It is more complicated than this, although I don't understand why. This is why leadership is such an intangible. There was a lot written on TD as well as others venues about the impact Torii Hunter had on Aaron Hicks. Many of the discussions and questions about batting performance for Hicks can be applied to Buxton. I have linked several of these articles below. Why was Torii Hunter able to help Aaron Hicks reach his potential, when the Twins coaches and manager could not. It is not as if they were not trying.

http://twinsdaily.co...-his-potential/

https://nypost.com/2...ed-aaron-hicks/

https://nypost.com/2...re-aaron-hicks/

is it really? How can one say it’s complicated in one sentence, then say that Hunter’s comments apply to Buxton too?

Hunter works for the MN Twins. If the Hunter method applies, then why isn’t it working?

Leadership isn’t talking a good talk. Leadership is actions and behaviors.

Leadership is winning.

#56 Eris

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 07:19 PM

 

is it really? How can one say it’s complicated in one sentence, then say that Hunter’s comments apply to Buxton too?

Hunter works for the MN Twins. If the Hunter method applies, then why isn’t it working?

Leadership isn’t talking a good talk. Leadership is actions and behaviors.

Leadership is winning.

 

What I meant was that Byron Buxton has similar issues that Aaron Hicks had as this stage in the development, i.e, he can not hit.Hunter's relationship with Hick's may be very different than Hunter's relationship with Buxton.For one, they were teammates, vs a coach-player relationship.What clicked for Hicks may not work for Buxton or may not work for Sanoor Duffy or any other player that is underperforming.Leadership through actions and behaviors increases the likelihood of winning.Leadership will help make the most of the talent that a team has.

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