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Article: Where Are The Twins Getting It Wrong?

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#201 ND-Fan

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 02:07 PM

I just watched interview with Billy Beane of the A's they were asking him on how he rebuilds and his answer may shock some of you. He doesn't have 5 year plan he said he can't afford it he tries to put a winner together every year and adjust from there. They were talking to him about having 3 last place finishing squads and he was even surprised he had 3 because he thought last years team had done much better finishing strong. The general feel I got from him 5 year plans are to long and to many things can go wrong he is philosophy of trying to win as soon as you can. I look at his club he gone from contender to being as poor as were Twins to being a contender again while the Twins have been floundering on putting a 5 year plan together. I am seeing same things with Yankees, Phillies, Arizona, Colorado, and number of other clubs they have rebuilt themselves quickly to win while were on this long term track to rebuild. The questions that need to be asked is why is it these teams farm systems seem to restock so quickly with high end talent where it takes us years to acquire this talent. We sure not spending at the big league level on player talent so what gives do we not spend money signing players like these other clubs must do. Also another point with the A's is that if they are win now mode they value there 40 man roster more than total minor league system saying they use minor league system like cash they improve their roster with prospects and when things don't go as plan they sell pieces that don't fit there roster for minor leaguers to improve their cash position again to trade for people improve their roster again. I am not sure this would work for us but I like idea they want to win now not in future with prospects. In baseball planning to win in the future is pretty shaky because there are too many variables of what can happen to your players plus you don't where or how other teams may be playing when your planning to be a winner. I believe in 2000's we should have signed a player or two that could have given us edge to be winner instead they went with minimum to just win the division or the wild card. Especially when we finally got to playoffs we hurt and worn down from race to just win a playoff spot. I also think last year we had a better shot than we got if we had invested in that team with extra piece or two but we were in five year rebuild mode and winning wasn't part of the plan. 

I keep hearing about the Cubs and Houston how they rebuilt there clubs that is what were doing and I see very little in common with them and where we are now. The difference with us and the Cubs is they had couple of quality drafts and they were able sign end pitching to put together a winning club. They are also big market club they have been and willing to sign high end talent. Houston went with plan of just being terrible to acquire talent through draft and they were able also to sign under old rules international players to also bolster there talent pool. Since then they made the big trade for Verlander to get them a world series title. I also think the way they built there clubs may not be repeatable because of how baseball is changing. 

All I know now is our 40 man roster is weak not in one area but all area's for the coming year. We have shortages of quality players in infield, Catcher, Starting pitching, and Relief pitching and only place we have what I would call were adequate is at outfield positions but still looking at a lot questions if these players can hit at the major league level. Second is that I doubt we sign any major free agents for the coming year this Front Office has been even more unwilling to sign players to long term deals than previous front office. I could see them trade for 40 man roster player that could be ready to graduate to majors but I again have a feeling they may feel is to costly again so we may not see this. So we will see some more one year signings and another lost year and acquiring of more prospects. Cleveland did similar to this but they had empty stadium and took for ever to get the fans to coming back again. We see how that plays in MN.

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#202 Major Leauge Ready

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 02:53 PM

 

Im not sure if this was specifically meant for me but it doesnt matter. I have no problem making my view very crystal clear. Hell No I dont think it was the right decision to sell at the 2018 trading deadline. I fully believe the group we had in place WAS capable to compete for and possibly win a World Series title. The factors that i cite are these. Santana was coming back off the D.L. Polanco was back from his suspension. Buxton would right himself and come back strong as in 2017.(which he did in Rochester..reference b.a. after the D.l.) Whatever Club Med retreat Sano was on was going to work and he would make a difference in the last 2 months. Lance Lynn never had a spring training and was finally rounding into the winner that he is.(check out his last few starts especially the last one at Fenway). Rodney had 25 saves when he was dumped for a rookie league suspect recovering from TJ surgery. Cleveland is a pretender that only had an eight game lead over us with 62 GAMES TO GO!. 10 of those 62 games were against Cleveland. HELL NO. We never should have tanked this season. It was a disgrace to do that to the season ticket holders, the fans , the players, and the coaching staff. Is that clear enough? This was a golden opportunity that was thrown away in favor of some analytical genius self proclaimed saviors. Giving up with one third of a season left is not the epitome of being a Minnesota Twins fan has ever included. Believe Dat.

 

The first problem with this thought process is that you have a faulty assumption. Your assessment is based the assumption Santana would be back AND effective. He was not effective when he was back and in the end he could not overcome his injury. You better know he will be back and effective before you forgo adding a dozen prospects.

 

However, let’s just say the best case scenario you laid out came together. How would the Twins have stacked up against the Indians? In other words, what were the chances of playing at a win rate to overcome a 10 game deficit with 56 games to play?

 

They have two players (Rameriz and Lindor) that are legit MVP candidates. They are better defensively than the Twins counterparts and Faaaaaar better offensively with an OPS of .967 and .881 respectively.Even their 3rd best hitter (Brantley is better than our best offensive player (Rosario).831 vs 800 OPS.

What about starting pitching. Again, their 4th best guy is pretty equivalent to our best guy. Their two best SPs are among the very best in baseball. HUGE advantage Cleveland.

 

I respect a never quit approach but where management decision making is concerned, not selling would have been gross incompetence IMO. Even under the best case scenario you applied, the Twins were very unlikely to keep pace much less make up 10 games. If the Indians only play 500 ball the rest of the way, the end up with 91 wins. The Twins would have needed to go 52-14 to tie the Indians. That’s assuming they play 500 ball. More likely, they would have to have gone at least 54-12 (.818) If you look at the decision to sell based on these facts and determine the opportunity cost ( a dozen prospects) would have been justified, we definitely disagree. If you look at these facts, any competent GM would evaluate this type of decision far differently than you have.

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#203 TheLeviathan

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 03:12 PM

 

Where did I say I believed the team was bad in July?

 

That's your position, not mine.

 

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  

 

I don't understand that either.Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  

 

That doesn't compute.At least not rationally.And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

Edited by TheLeviathan, 14 September 2018 - 03:14 PM.

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#204 jimmer

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 03:14 PM

 

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  

 

I don't understand that either.Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  

 

That doesn't compute.At least not rationally.And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

In July, the Twins were a fantastic, awe inspiring 14-13.Overall, they were 49-57 at the trade deadline.The AL Wild Card teams will each have close to 100 wins and Cleveland will likely have 92+.

Edited by jimmer, 14 September 2018 - 03:18 PM.

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#205 Channing1964

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 03:40 PM

Seems odd to believe the team is bad in July but worthy of a playoff push.

Im looking and i still dont see anyone say they were in favor of making a run but now saying they were bad anyway. I will say I did and I Do think they could have caught Cleveland. Of course Now the forty man roster is a joke. I know I am am talking about how much I wish we could have seen what would have happened with Escobar, Dozier, Sano back, Polanco back, Pressly and Duke, and Rodney still in the bullpen and Lynn still holding down a spot in the rotation. Somebody somewhere decided that 9 games out with 62 to go was insurmountable. I assure you sir Cleveland is NOT that good. And we had something like 10 games remaining with them. Let them decide it on the field. I dont follow the Twins because i love watching the outcomes of Falvey and Levine's decisions. IMO Id never see them in the news at all. Of course its a moot point now. They made their beds and time will tell..i am upset because i feel they screwed the fans this year. Nobody can say now what would or would not have happened because they made sure(unlike last year) to dismantle the 25 man so there was not a snowballs chance in....Arizona.

#206 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 03:44 PM

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  
 
I don't understand that either.Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  
 
That doesn't compute.At least not rationally.And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

The front office pulled the plug.

There's nothing inconsistent here, unless you're of the type who believes players are mere emotionless stat producers (and you are of that type). But, players are humans and Escobar/Dozier were key players--and yes Dozier has fallen off a cliff. Then Rodney was traded, and Buxton was sent home.

It was a good team from 2017 to mid-2018. Now it's a complete mess.
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#207 TheLeviathan

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:00 PM

 

The front office pulled the plug.

There's nothing inconsistent here, unless you're of the type who believes players are mere emotionless stat producers (and you are of that type). But, players are humans and Escobar/Dozier were key players--and yes Dozier has fallen off a cliff. Then Rodney was traded, and Buxton was sent home.

It was a good team from 2017 to mid-2018. Now it's a complete mess.

 

Are you saying losing Rodney, Pressley, and Escobar is enough to turn the 40 man from a playoff contender to a tire fire?If not, then....yes....you are being inconsistent.If you're saying, yes - those three players are that much of a difference, well then we can talk about that.Because I think that position is demonstrably misguided.

 

Reality is that this is basically the same group, just swap out Lynn, Pressley, Rodney, Escobar, and Dozier for Austin, Forsythe, Drake, and DeJong.I don't see that as a terribly meaningful swap.Certainly not the difference between being awful and being a contender.  

 

If you're going to bash the FO for not being wise enough to see the WS contender they had in July and then turn around a month and a half later and claim the 40 man roster is a Titanic....you're going to have to do better than "But what about Rodney!"  

 

Your views don't mesh.The only thing consistent is that you want to bash the FO, but your justifications for doing so are basically contradictions.

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#208 TheLeviathan

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:03 PM

 

Im looking and i still dont see anyone say they were in favor of making a run but now saying they were bad anyway. I will say I did and I Do think they could have caught Cleveland. Of course Now the forty man roster is a joke. I know I am am talking about how much I wish we could have seen what would have happened with Escobar, Dozier, Sano back, Polanco back, Pressly and Duke, and Rodney still in the bullpen and Lynn still holding down a spot in the rotation. Somebody somewhere decided that 9 games out with 62 to go was insurmountable. I assure you sir Cleveland is NOT that good. And we had something like 10 games remaining with them. Let them decide it on the field. I dont follow the Twins because i love watching the outcomes of Falvey and Levine's decisions. IMO Id never see them in the news at all. Of course its a moot point now. They made their beds and time will tell..i am upset because i feel they screwed the fans this year. Nobody can say now what would or would not have happened because they made sure(unlike last year) to dismantle the 25 man so there was not a snowballs chance in....Arizona.

 

At their current pace Cleveland looks to be about a 90-92 win team.The same Twins team many here think is a 40 man dumpster fire would've had to go 43-13 to surmount that lead.

 

Practically speaking, yes, that's insurmountable.  

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#209 USAFChief

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:09 PM

 

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  

 

I don't understand that either.Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  

 

That doesn't compute.At least not rationally.And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

Please stop inventing exaggerated positions to me that I haven't taken.

 

I haven't said the Twins "were good in July." We've been through this multiple times, but one more time... I have said i didn't think they deserved to have the season torpedo'd. They were playing better, got to within 5 games of the division, and could reasonably have expected to get Sano/Buxton/Santana back and producing. Add to that, by being a buyer instead of seller, and I still think they had a chance. 

 

Instead, the 40 man was gutted, and filled with mostly dreck. There is pretty much nothing left on the 40 man that can reasonably be expected to provide significant help in 2019, sans Buxton. They've taken a team that had snuck into the playoffs in 2017, was largely expected to be a contender this year by most here at TD, and turned it into a team that I'm hard pressed to describe as better than KC, Detroit, or certainly Chicago.

 

You may disagree, and that's fine. But there's nothing inconsistent about my position. I have long held to the position that there is nothing more overrated than prospects. Particularly prospects in the low minors. I could care less. If one or two of them end up being a significant contributor somewhere down the road, great. But I'll give the front office little credit for that, either. They will have gotten lucky, as will pretty much any front office when they acquire low minors prospects not within the top 5 or 10 in multiple ratings, and even that is somewhat of a crapshoot, as certainly we Twins fans should know without a shadow of a doubt.

 

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#210 TheLeviathan

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:11 PM

 

Please stop attributing positions to me that I haven't taken.

 

I haven't said the Twins "were good in July." 

 

Did they have the talent of a playoff contender as of late July?

 

I'm asking you directly because I would assume a rational person who wants the team to invest for the playoffs would consider the team "good".If, for some inexplicable reason, you don't think they were a good team....well then you have another issue of consistency.Or at least of good decision making.


#211 Major Leauge Ready

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:24 PM

 

Im looking and i still dont see anyone say they were in favor of making a run but now saying they were bad anyway. I will say I did and I Do think they could have caught Cleveland. Of course Now the forty man roster is a joke. I know I am am talking about how much I wish we could have seen what would have happened with Escobar, Dozier, Sano back, Polanco back, Pressly and Duke, and Rodney still in the bullpen and Lynn still holding down a spot in the rotation. Somebody somewhere decided that 9 games out with 62 to go was insurmountable. I assure you sir Cleveland is NOT that good. And we had something like 10 games remaining with them. Let them decide it on the field. I dont follow the Twins because i love watching the outcomes of Falvey and Levine's decisions. IMO Id never see them in the news at all. Of course its a moot point now. They made their beds and time will tell..i am upset because i feel they screwed the fans this year. Nobody can say now what would or would not have happened because they made sure(unlike last year) to dismantle the 25 man so there was not a snowballs chance in....Arizona.

 

You are refusing to look at this objectively. The Indians are on pace to win 91 games. The Twins would have had to have gone 52-14 to catch the Indians. Are you really suggesting it is reasonable to think a team with a winning percentage of .462 was going to win at a .788 pace had they kept the players you mentioned?

 

Cleveland’s 4th best SP has equal or perhaps even better stats than our best SP. Brantley's stats are better than our best offensive player. Their two best position players are significantly better than any of the Twin’s position players. Please explain how Cleveland is not good relative to the Twins. I would love to see what I am missing.

 

Edited by Major Leauge Ready, 14 September 2018 - 04:25 PM.

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#212 USAFChief

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:39 PM

 

You are refusing to look at this objectively. The Indians are on pace to win 91 games. The Twins would have had to have gone 52-14 to catch the Indians. Are you really suggesting it is reasonable to think a team with a winning percentage of .462 was going to win at a .788 pace had they kept the players you mentioned?

 

Cleveland’s 4th best SP has equal or perhaps even better stats than our best SP. Brantley's stats are better than our best offensive player. Their two best position players are significantly better than any of the Twin’s position players. Please explain how Cleveland is not good relative to the Twins. I would love to see what I am missing.

The Twins started their dismantling of the roster with the Escobar trade on July 27th. After the games of July 27th, the Twins were 48-53. Cleveland, 56-46. At that point, Cleveland was on pace to win 89 games. The Twins would have need to make up 6 games in the win column over the final two months.

 

The Twins were certainly not in good shape, but not out of it. And it's a bit convenient to use Cleveland's results now, which are known, to shape an argument about what should have been done then.

 

 

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#213 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:39 PM

Are you saying losing Rodney, Pressley, and Escobar is enough to turn the 40 man from a playoff contender to a tire fire?If not, then....yes....you are being inconsistent.If you're saying, yes - those three players are that much of a difference, well then we can talk about that.Because I think that position is demonstrably misguided.
 
Reality is that this is basically the same group, just swap out Lynn, Pressley, Rodney, Escobar, and Dozier for Austin, Forsythe, Drake, and DeJong.I don't see that as a terribly meaningful swap.Certainly not the difference between being awful and being a contender.  
 
If you're going to bash the FO for not being wise enough to see the WS contender they had in July and then turn around a month and a half later and claim the 40 man roster is a Titanic....you're going to have to do better than "But what about Rodney!"  
 
Your views don't mesh.The only thing consistent is that you want to bash the FO, but your justifications for doing so are basically contradictions.

I think the team took the trade of Escobar pretty hard. I think that could affect their play, absolutely. The edge is gone. Maybe next spring can be a new start.

Until Escobar and Pressly were traded that night, I thought the team had the same "team" quality that they had in 2017, and sure, I thought they were good, people can disagree, but I did not think they were on the level of the best teams. Lots of posters here gave up on the team in 2017, too, and I disagreed then as well.
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#214 TheLeviathan

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 04:44 PM

 

I think the team took the trade of Escobar pretty hard. I think that could affect their play, absolutely. The edge is gone. Maybe next spring can be a new start.

Until Escobar and Pressly were traded that night, I thought the team had the same "team" quality that they had in 2017, and sure, I thought they were good, people can disagree, but I did not think they were on the level of the best teams. Lots of posters here gave up on the team in 2017, too, and I disagreed then as well.

 

We seem to be talking about two different things. You are talking about the way the team is playing but I'm talking about the talent on the roster. What do you think of the talent on the roster today? What do you think of the talent on the roster July 25th?

Edited by TheLeviathan, 14 September 2018 - 04:45 PM.


#215 yarnivek1972

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 05:11 PM

Twins starting pitching will not match Cleveland in the next couple of years, that is a given. However the Cleveland bullpen is no prize and getting worse, unlike a couple of years ago. Trading Pressly (which was the one move I had doubts about) has cost the Twins as they would now be on their way to a shutdown bullpen(if not one close). With Rodgers and Hildenberger and a couple of more pieces, this would be a bullpen you would have to respect in how you manage the game.
Rant warning
This is one of my biggest issues with Molitor. He does not seem to recognize that you have to play a different game against the clubs that have shutdown bullpens, you have to play to score early and often and to be ahead(by as much as possible) after 5 innings. Tampa Bay has figured this out, and their bullpen has masked many other issues with that ballclub. Until Molitor learns to manage differently against different clubs, Twins will never by a well above .500 team(no matter what their talent level. Just change the Twins record in one run ballgames and they would be close to .500 despite all their other issues.
Unlike some of the other posters here, I do feel with some additions in 2019 and some recovery to close to form from some Twins players Twins will be competitive in 2019. Indians outside of their starting rotation and some key regulars are not better than the Twins. I do not underestimate pitching, but given some improvement our offense should be better than Cleveland in 2019.
Twins have the money to spend (between $60 and $80 million) they should be able to accomplish something.
1. Sign one more starting pitcher(but only if #1 or #2 starter), otherwise they may be no better than some of the youngsters the Twins need to try.
2. Find 2 bullpen pieces to help put together a shutdown pen. This will require some money as the better ones will be expensive ($12 - $18 million a year).
3. Find a 1B and a (2B or SS) to play for the next 2 years (1B may only need to be 1 year).

This is not an impossible task list. Let's do it.



There are exactly six (6) relievers making more than $12 mil per year. Three of them are with the Yankees, who always overpay.


https://www.spotrac....relief-pitcher/


What relievers out there do you think will command $12 to $18 mil per year?

#216 The Wise One

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 05:24 PM

 

I just watched interview with Billy Beane of the A's they were asking him on how he rebuilds and his answer may shock some of you. He doesn't have 5 year plan he said he can't afford it he tries to put a winner together every year and adjust from there. They were talking to him about having 3 last place finishing squads and he was even surprised he had 3 because he thought last years team had done much better finishing strong. The general feel I got from him 5 year plans are to long and to many things can go wrong he is philosophy of trying to win as soon as you can. I look at his club he gone from contender to being as poor as were Twins to being a contender again while the Twins have been floundering on putting a 5 year plan together. I am seeing same things with Yankees, Phillies, Arizona, Colorado, and number of other clubs they have rebuilt themselves quickly to win while were on this long term track to rebuild. The questions that need to be asked is why is it these teams farm systems seem to restock so quickly with high end talent where it takes us years to acquire this talent. We sure not spending at the big league level on player talent so what gives do we not spend money signing players like these other clubs must do. Also another point with the A's is that if they are win now mode they value there 40 man roster more than total minor league system saying they use minor league system like cash they improve their roster with prospects and when things don't go as plan they sell pieces that don't fit there roster for minor leaguers to improve their cash position again to trade for people improve their roster again. I am not sure this would work for us but I like idea they want to win now not in future with prospects. In baseball planning to win in the future is pretty shaky because there are too many variables of what can happen to your players plus you don't where or how other teams may be playing when your planning to be a winner. I believe in 2000's we should have signed a player or two that could have given us edge to be winner instead they went with minimum to just win the division or the wild card. Especially when we finally got to playoffs we hurt and worn down from race to just win a playoff spot. I also think last year we had a better shot than we got if we had invested in that team with extra piece or two but we were in five year rebuild mode and winning wasn't part of the plan. 

I keep hearing about the Cubs and Houston how they rebuilt there clubs that is what were doing and I see very little in common with them and where we are now. The difference with us and the Cubs is they had couple of quality drafts and they were able sign end pitching to put together a winning club. They are also big market club they have been and willing to sign high end talent. Houston went with plan of just being terrible to acquire talent through draft and they were able also to sign under old rules international players to also bolster there talent pool. Since then they made the big trade for Verlander to get them a world series title. I also think the way they built there clubs may not be repeatable because of how baseball is changing. 

All I know now is our 40 man roster is weak not in one area but all area's for the coming year. We have shortages of quality players in infield, Catcher, Starting pitching, and Relief pitching and only place we have what I would call were adequate is at outfield positions but still looking at a lot questions if these players can hit at the major league level. Second is that I doubt we sign any major free agents for the coming year this Front Office has been even more unwilling to sign players to long term deals than previous front office. I could see them trade for 40 man roster player that could be ready to graduate to majors but I again have a feeling they may feel is to costly again so we may not see this. So we will see some more one year signings and another lost year and acquiring of more prospects. Cleveland did similar to this but they had empty stadium and took for ever to get the fans to coming back again. We see how that plays in MN.

Beane's comment is full of that stuff that was piled outside the neighbor's barn and as pungent on the first warm day.You do not trade for Sean Manaea when he did without it being a long term plan.Sonny Gray would not have been traded for talent down the roadif there was solely planning for the here and now.That he does not have a specific plan for five years is believable. That he tries to put the best team he can together is believable. That he trades players away long before they are free agents shows bottom line is more important when the win line is low


#217 Major Leauge Ready

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 05:50 PM

 

The Twins started their dismantling of the roster with the Escobar trade on July 27th. After the games of July 27th, the Twins were 48-53. Cleveland, 56-46. At that point, Cleveland was on pace to win 89 games. The Twins would have need to make up 6 games in the win column over the final two months.

 

The Twins were certainly not in good shape, but not out of it. And it's a bit convenient to use Cleveland's results now, which are known, to shape an argument about what should have been done then.

 

I am pretty sure 56 is 8 more than 48. Granted, it's convenient to have more information now but projecting Cleveland's performance was part of that equation. That pitching staff with a 1-4 of Rameriz, Lindor, Brantley, and Encarcion projected to perform better than they had to date. I would expect the Twins to have factored this into their decisions. There is simply no way to get around the fact that Cleveland's team projected to do significantly better than the Twins with all of the original roster in place much less make up 8 games. 

 

I butchered the math earlier. They would have needed to go 42-24. 

Edited by Major Leauge Ready, 14 September 2018 - 06:26 PM.

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#218 LaBombo

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 07:09 PM

The philosophy going into 2018 seemed to be 'We were pretty good in 2017 and our young core is improving, so let's add some veteran talent on short-term deals and go win our lame division!' It sounded like a good plan, and it probably was.

 

By July the plan was shattered, and the Twins devolved into a bipolar cruise ship. On the bow there was a reasonably orderly abandon ship drill taking place, with Dozier, Esco, Pressley and Co. going over the side. Meanwhile on the stern, seniors like Belisle and Wilson continued to putter along on the shuffleboard court as if nothing were wrong.

 

And in the middle of it all, the crew of the S.S Twins wandered around assuring everyone that the cruise line was handling it and everything would be fine.

 

To be honest, I've not really the foggiest idea where the TwIns are getting it wrong. But I'm fairly certain of where they're NOT getting it wrong:

 

1. They're not playing in either a market or a stadium that dooms them to bottom-five revenue like the teams mentioned at the top of the article.

 

2. They're not being grossly mismanaged by a chronic incompetent on the field.

 

3. They've had injury issues, but it's not like the frigging team charter went Marshall on them, either.

 

What's that leave? Ownership isn't allowing the needed payroll, the front office may be struggling to acquire talent, their on-field staff throughout the organization is failing to develop it, or it's a combination.

 

In spite of that, Molitor will be jettisoned before Falvine. They'll get another year at minimum to sort things out, and I wish them well. They still seem like sharp guys, and maybe they'll get the cruise ship righted.

 

On the other hand, while the Twins are 'only' 12 below .500 and 'just' a -70 run differential, they're playing in the worst division in baseball.Against AL teams with winning records, the Twins are sporting a .375 win pct., which would work out to a 100 loss season.

 

In other words, even with Buxton and Sano healthy and back on track, there's a metric **** ton of work to be done.

 

 

 

Edited by ashburyjohn, 14 September 2018 - 08:10 PM.
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#219 Channing1964

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 01:17 AM

We seem to be talking about two different things. You are talking about the way the team is playing but I'm talking about the talent on the roster. What do you think of the talent on the roster today? What do you think of the talent on the roster July 25th?

ok i was kind of seeing your point until you said that Dozier, Escobar, Lynn, Pressly, and Rodney were same as having Austin, Forsythe, Drake, DeJong and Who else?...Wait a minute What????. Yes those five are way WAY better than (name any five) currently on the Twins 40 man. This season was TANKED because somebody somewhere did not believe in them or for some other ulterior motive. The 40 man roster is what it is BECAUSE of those moves and YES before the gutting of the team's heart and soul they had a puncher's chance to catch and pass Cleveland. We all know who made the decisions but that is not part of my point and I dont want anyone to say i am attacking whoever traded our teams leadership. Austin has done nothing in his career to show me he will ever be more than a big slow guy that is a defensive liability anywhere you put him and gets hurt and strikes out way too much. (we already have a guy like that). If he is so good then why did the Yankees dump him on us and trade for the Cardinal's Luke Voit the next day. If you want to debate with me more why was the Yankees first base job won by NEIL WALKER out of spring training when Bird was hurt and Austin was healthy? Thats the only one of our fearsome fivesome that i even need to elaborate on, unless you really Do think Forsythe is as good as Dozier and Drake is as good as Duke and DeJong could carry Lynn's gear. thanks for the take though...it is what it is. Instead of cheering for our team we are discussing this and that shouldnt be the way it is. They should have let em' settle it on the field.

Edited by Channing1964, 15 September 2018 - 01:24 AM.


#220 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 07:30 AM

 

ok i was kind of seeing your point until you said that Dozier, Escobar, Lynn, Pressly, and Rodney were same as having Austin, Forsythe, Drake, DeJong and Who else?...Wait a minute What????. Yes those five are way WAY better than (name any five) currently on the Twins 40 man. This season was TANKED because somebody somewhere did not believe in them or for some other ulterior motive. The 40 man roster is what it is BECAUSE of those moves

 

In terms of talent, it might be true that those players are better.In terms of production since the deadline it's really not.(Quick comparison here only)

 

Austin - .783 OPS, Forsythe - .679 OPS/ Dozier - .631 and Escobar .738.There is very little difference there.And what difference there is favors the Twins.

 

May and Drake 3.99 and 3.83 in FIP replaced Pressley and Rodney (1.49 and 4.19)Clearly Pressley is a good player, but even that from a bullpen is not a hugely different outcome.

 

Lynn has been lights out for the Yankees....but tell me one person that saw that coming.I doubt even the Yankees expected what they got from him.

 

Of course, there can be an emotional impact from selling at the deadline, I wouldn't disagree with that.But in terms of the talent being shuffled on the 25/40 man roster as a result of the moves made at the deadline, it's hard to see how the overall talent level and production were radically changed.Even for 2019, only Pressley and Rodney were even counted officially as part of that group.The rest of the players dealt were all on expiring contracts.  

 

I just don't see how anyone can make a cogent argument that dealing expiring deals cripples the 2019 40 man (as suggested earlier) or how the overall talent of the team was radically changed.This wasn't a terribly talented team all year due to a confluence of issues that the FO does share blame for.So it really feels like unfair criticism to hammer the FO for selling on a talented playoff team and then hammer them a month later for having the organization in shambles for dealing a handful of meaningful players.(Most of whom are older and/or on expiring deals)

Edited by TheLeviathan, 15 September 2018 - 07:33 AM.

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