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Article: Hardball, the Twins, and Byron Buxton

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#41 Carole Keller

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 08:59 PM

This isn't delicate to me. I'd knock over every piece of fine china in the store and say... I WANT THE EXTRA YEAR.


Don’t promote him if you think he needs more work or needs to get healthy or anything that is about what’s best for him and his career. But if the only single reason you have to keep him down is service time, even though it’s technically allowed, I think it’s questionable from an ethics standpoint.
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#42 Twins33

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:02 PM

Not sure this means anything yet as the Red Wings still have games left.

Edited by Twins33, 31 August 2018 - 09:02 PM.


#43 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:37 PM

 

Don’t promote him if you think he needs more work or needs to get healthy or anything that is about what’s best for him and his career. But if the only single reason you have to keep him down is service time, even though it’s technically allowed, I think it’s questionable from an ethics standpoint.

 

Ethics? It's something that is done by all 30 teams and God bless America.:)

 

Seriously... I'm on the players side in the next CBA.

 

However this is the current CBA. My opponents are going to use service time to their advantage. I'm not going to let them have an advantage to themselves so I can interpret a vague Bad Faith wording in an agreement in the players favor. 

 

I want the year... I'm getting it back this September or in April. 

 

If Buxton wants to file grievance. The response to the players union should just be "Seven" as in OPS+ of "Seven". 

 

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#44 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:47 PM

Don’t promote him if you think he needs more work or needs to get healthy or anything that is about what’s best for him and his career. But if the only single reason you have to keep him down is service time, even though it’s technically allowed, I think it’s questionable from an ethics standpoint.

Questionable ethics is putting it lightly.

Another option is to call him up and not play him , and at least he is with his teammates and around the MLB game.
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#45 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:48 PM

Ethics? It's something that is done by all 30 teams and God bless America.:)
 
Seriously... I'm on the players side in the next CBA.
 
However this is the current CBA. My opponents are going to use service time to their advantage. I'm not going to let them have an advantage to themselves so I can interpret a vague Bad Faith wording in an agreement in the players favor. 
 
I want the year... I'm getting it back this September or in April. 
 
If Buxton wants to file grievance. The response to the players union should just be "Seven" as in OPS+ of "Seven".

Buxton was playing on a broken toe, the same way Castro had a broken knee and Morrison had a broken hip

#46 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:49 PM

Not sure this means anything yet as the Red Wings still have games left.

Red Wings games, hopefully that's what it is. The FO is already in a hole on this but that at least provides them cover.

#47 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:54 PM

 

Buxton was playing on a broken toe, the same way Castro had a broken knee and Morrison had a broken hip

 

Perfect... He needs September off to heal that broken toe.:)

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#48 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:05 PM

Perfect... He needs September off to heal that broken toe.:)

No. His toe is healed. No, he doesn't. When guys go on the DL they can still travel with the team.

#49 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:15 PM

 

No. His toe is healed. No, he doesn't. When guys go on the DL they can still travel with the team.

 

If his toe has healed.

 

I want to be clear that I'm against that. 

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#50 Carole Keller

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:15 PM

Ethics? It's something that is done by all 30 teams and God bless America. :)

Seriously... I'm on the players side in the next CBA.

However this is the current CBA. My opponents are going to use service time to their advantage. I'm not going to let them have an advantage to themselves so I can interpret a vague Bad Faith wording in an agreement in the players favor.

I want the year... I'm getting it back this September or in April.

If Buxton wants to file grievance. The response to the players union should just be "Seven" as in OPS+ of "Seven".

I already conceded that technically it was allowable. Even so, it’s still questionable ethically. And I think it’s ethically questionable for other teams to play with service time like this, too. Promoting him or not should be a baseball and/or health reason. If the only reason you don’t bring him up is service time, I just can’t respect that. If that’s your only reason for not wanting him up, I don’t respect that.
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#51 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:25 PM

 

I already conceded that technically it was allowable. Even so, it’s still questionable ethically. And I think it’s ethically questionable for other teams to play with service time like this, too. Promoting him or not should be a baseball and/or health reason. If the only reason you don’t bring him up is service time, I just can’t respect that. If that’s your only reason for not wanting him up, I don’t respect that.

 

Honestly Carole... I want that world as well. But it ain't coming. 

 

Every single 25 and 40 man decision should be based on who the best players are period. But it ain't coming.

 

I get the ethics part of the discussion and I consider myself a pretty ethical guy but please keep in mind that those very same players are going to have their agents shoving bamboo under the fingernails of front offices in order to get the best deal they can for their client. 

 

The Angels have to pay Pujols 30 Million a Year as a free agent and Buxton is going to lose a year. It happens on both sides. 

 

I'm not going to hold my team to some ethical standard that no other team is holding themselves to. 

 

 

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#52 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:32 PM

Honestly Carole... I want that world as well. But it ain't coming.

Every single 25 and 40 man decision should be based on who the best players are period. But it ain't coming.

I get the ethics part of the discussion and I consider myself a pretty ethical guy but please keep in mind that those very same players are going to have their agents shoving bamboo under the fingernails of front offices in order to get the best deal they can for their client.

The Angels have to pay Pujols 30 Million a Year as a free agent and Buxton is going to lose a year. It happens on both sides.

I'm not going to hold my team to some ethical standard that no other team is holding themselves to.

Well, what are the precedents for this? The Kris Bryant situation at the start of his career doesn't count.

#53 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:41 PM

 

Well, what are the precedents for this? The Kris Bryant situation at the start of his career doesn't count.

 

Why not? It's service time manipulation no matter when it occurs.

 

Where in the CBA does it mention that Bryant's situation is OK but Buxton's situation is not.:)

 

 

 

 

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#54 Carole Keller

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 11:01 PM

Honestly Carole... I want that world as well. But it ain't coming.

Every single 25 and 40 man decision should be based on who the best players are period. But it ain't coming.

I get the ethics part of the discussion and I consider myself a pretty ethical guy but please keep in mind that those very same players are going to have their agents shoving bamboo under the fingernails of front offices in order to get the best deal they can for their client.

The Angels have to pay Pujols 30 Million a Year as a free agent and Buxton is going to lose a year. It happens on both sides.

I'm not going to hold my team to some ethical standard that no other team is holding themselves to.

If he’s not the best player right now, that I get. That’s a baseball decision and has nothing to do with service time. It wouldn’t be the decision I’d have made, but I still get that and that would be a decision I’d understand and think is fair even though I disagree. But, as I said, if your decision is based solely on service time, if that’s your only reason to hold him back, I think it’s questionable ethics. I know other teams do it, but that still doesn’t make it right. It might be technically ‘right’ according to the letter of the contract, but not to the spirit of it. I find the practice ethically questionable.

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#55 old nurse

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 05:31 AM

A business controlling costs of labor any way they can. Unethical some say. Welcome to the real world.

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#56 adorduan

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 06:10 AM

 

Buxton was playing on a broken toe, the same way Castro had a broken knee and Morrison had a broken hip

He sucked before the broken toe.....

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#57 beckmt

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 06:25 AM

Outside of the Yankees and Houston, Buxton will be facing AAAA pitching up here in September.Will anyone learn anything from that?With hearing in the Star Tribune his wrist may still be a minor issue (this may be FO doubletalk), shutting him down does not seem that unreasonable.

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#58 spycake

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 06:52 AM

Outside of the Yankees and Houston, Buxton will be facing AAAA pitching up here in September.

This is a wild exagerration. Yes, there are some bad teams, but there are still a lot of players on those teams above "AAAA" talent. (And September callups don't usually pitch many innings, and honestly aren't that different from the staff the rest of the year -- in some cases, they might be inprovements!)

Look at the Tigers, they still have 3 SP with 104-113 ERA+, plus Fulmer having a down year at 94, plus Greene and Wilson in their pen. Those are all pitchers for whom it would be valuable for Buxton to face.

The Royals are worse, but they still have Duffy, Junis, and Keller starting.

The White Sox have Rodon and Kopech who have looked great so far, plus Shields and Lopez having competent seasons.

Not to mention we have 30% of our remaining games against NYY, HOU, and OAK where we could encounter a nice playoff atmosphere.

Edited by spycake, 01 September 2018 - 06:52 AM.

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#59 Riverbrian

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 07:32 AM

 

If he’s not the best player right now, that I get. That’s a baseball decision and has nothing to do with service time. It wouldn’t be the decision I’d have made, but I still get that and that would be a decision I’d understand and think is fair even though I disagree. But, as I said, if your decision is based solely on service time, if that’s your only reason to hold him back, I think it’s questionable ethics. I know other teams do it, but that still doesn’t make it right. It might be technically ‘right’ according to the letter of the contract, but not to the spirit of it. I find the practice ethically questionable.

 

He's not the best player right now. If he was even close to major league quality. We are not having this discussion. I want the year back because he has been wasting mine. 

 

The spirit was negotiated between the Commissioners Office and the Players Union. Ask yourself why Super-Two is even necessary and you'll realize that they were aware of each other's tendencies during the negotiation. 

 

Also keep in mind that, the same CBA also protects Byron Buxton and he was bad enough that he needed that protection. 

 

The players have representation, I wouldn't be worried about Byron Buxton. 

 

If you want to worry about ethics... you need to focus on the players not on the 40 man.

 

The players that don't have representation are in the bowels of the minor league system, players are making $1,160 a month down on the farm. The Commissioners office has representation now in Washington and they spent enough money funding election campaigns, that they can really slap those unrepresented players (that we have never heard of) silly. 

 

The Consolidated Appropriations Act. (H.R. 1625) was a 1.3 trillion dollar spending bill that managed to avoid a government shut down at the last minute. The MLB Commissioners office was able to lobby enough influence, fund enough election campaigns to get a provision attached on page 1,967 of the 2,232 page spending bill stating that minor league baseball players are exempt from federal labor standards. If you are not on the 40 man roster... major league baseball can pay you poverty wages and our government gives that the thumps up as long as they get funding for re-election. 

 

Buxton has representation... If you want to worry about Buxton... I'd worry that if he doesn't start playing better. He will have H.R. 1625 to worry about. 

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#60 bighat

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 07:43 AM

I urge all Twins fans to step back, look at the offensive stats, and pretend you are looking at a guy who plays for the Padres or Marlins.

 

What the Twins have is a 25 year-old career .230 hitter who has played parts of 4 seasons with the team. He has great speed, gold-glove defense, and a terrible strikeout rate. He's prone to prolonged slumps and injuries. That's what Buxton IS. An amazing defensive player who cannot hit MLB pitching right now. He also appears to be a great human being but that doesn't count right now.

 

Buxton is not going to transform into Ted Williams in 3 weeks playing against other September call ups. The Twins are doing the right thing by not recalling him in 2018.

 

 

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