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Difference in minor league philosiphy

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#1 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:44 PM

2010 Draft difference in 2 same aged (2 month diff), same size, same basic collegiate competition
MN took 3 yr college player Nate Roberts in the 6th round out of High Point and assigned him to Rookie Lg ELIZ.
In 35 gms there, he had a line of .336/.444/.547 w/30r 10doubles 1triple 5hr 17rbi 29k 21bb 5/7sb. Very solid
Same draft, ARIZ took 4 yr college player Adam Eaton in the 19th round out of Miami (Ohio) and also assigned him to Rookie Lg Missoula.
In 68gms there .385/.500/.575 48runs 14doubles 4triples 7hr 37rbi 44k 35bb 20/28sb
Both excellent debuts....what do they both do next???

2011 MN sends Roberts to Low A. No problem as that is MNs way of doin things & they rarely deviate from that. Roberts battles some knee problems limiting him to 68gms .302/.443/.446 55runs 12doubles 4triples 4hr 34rbi 48k 28bb 9/13sb
ARIZ decides to challenge Eaton in High A as he's now their #30 prospect
Plays 65gms .332/.455/.492 54runs 15doubles 3triples 6hr 39rbi 41k 42bb 24/32sb.....then assigned to AA for 2nd half ...56gms .302/.409/.429 31runs 7doubles 4triples 4hr 28rbi 35k 30bb 10/16sb
After 1+ season, MN has the higher drafted player 2 levels below ARIZs...ok there is the next yr.

2012 MN has Roberts repeat Low A. Hmmm. Ok, still havin minor knee issues I guess.
76gms .299/.433/.427 60runs 18doubles 3triples 4hr 33rbi 37k 44bb 27/35sb....no promotion in season as MN decides its more important to have him play in Low A playoffs, before crowds of less than 1K nightly, than go to High A for better competition....despite their being no OFs in Ft Myers playing better than him.
Now their #12 prospect, ARIZ has Eaton also repeat AA....FOR 11GMS
.300/.450/.325 11runs 1double 3rbi 8k 6bb 6/7sb....nothing earthshattering but they stil want to challenge him.
Then up to AAA.....119gms @ hitting friendly PCL .381/.456/.539 119runs 46doubles 5triples 7HR 45rbi 76k 59bb 38/48sb
ARIZs NOT done..MLB promotion 5gms 10/25 .400/.423/.480 6runs 2doubles 3k 1bb 1/1sb

So MN takes the higher choice, he has great success but still has that player stuck in Low A for some reason.
ARIZ has taken the lower player, challenged him by promoting him quickly up level & have found out he's a MLB player.
This is only one piece of a bigger puzzle but its the reasoning on why MN has had one of the absolute worst records in baseball the past 2 yrs as this is how they veiw their minor league players/develpment..... things like playing in minor league playoffs bein more important than challenging a successful player to a new level or 2

#2 old nurse

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:47 PM

Try some other comparison if similar players in playing in the systems actually make it to the major league. The goal is developing a major league talent. If you can find similar players that did not develop under the Twins but did in other systems you might have an argument.

#3 iastfan112

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:06 AM

2010 Draft difference in 2 same aged (2 month diff), same size, same basic collegiate competition
MN took 3 yr college player Nate Roberts in the 6th round out of High Point and assigned him to Rookie Lg ELIZ.
In 35 gms there, he had a line of .336/.444/.547 w/30r 10doubles 1triple 5hr 17rbi 29k 21bb 5/7sb. Very solid
Same draft, ARIZ took 4 yr college player Adam Eaton in the 19th round out of Miami (Ohio) and also assigned him to Rookie Lg Missoula.
In 68gms there .385/.500/.575 48runs 14doubles 4triples 7hr 37rbi 44k 35bb 20/28sb
Both excellent debuts....what do they both do next???

2011 MN sends Roberts to Low A. No problem as that is MNs way of doin things & they rarely deviate from that. Roberts battles some knee problems limiting him to 68gms .302/.443/.446 55runs 12doubles 4triples 4hr 34rbi 48k 28bb 9/13sb
ARIZ decides to challenge Eaton in High A as he's now their #30 prospect
Plays 65gms .332/.455/.492 54runs 15doubles 3triples 6hr 39rbi 41k 42bb 24/32sb.....then assigned to AA for 2nd half ...56gms .302/.409/.429 31runs 7doubles 4triples 4hr 28rbi 35k 30bb 10/16sb
After 1+ season, MN has the higher drafted player 2 levels below ARIZs...ok there is the next yr.

2012 MN has Roberts repeat Low A. Hmmm. Ok, still havin minor knee issues I guess.
76gms .299/.433/.427 60runs 18doubles 3triples 4hr 33rbi 37k 44bb 27/35sb....no promotion in season as MN decides its more important to have him play in Low A playoffs, before crowds of less than 1K nightly, than go to High A for better competition....despite their being no OFs in Ft Myers playing better than him.
Now their #12 prospect, ARIZ has Eaton also repeat AA....FOR 11GMS
.300/.450/.325 11runs 1double 3rbi 8k 6bb 6/7sb....nothing earthshattering but they stil want to challenge him.
Then up to AAA.....119gms @ hitting friendly PCL .381/.456/.539 119runs 46doubles 5triples 7HR 45rbi 76k 59bb 38/48sb
ARIZs NOT done..MLB promotion 5gms 10/25 .400/.423/.480 6runs 2doubles 3k 1bb 1/1sb

So MN takes the higher choice, he has great success but still has that player stuck in Low A for some reason.
ARIZ has taken the lower player, challenged him by promoting him quickly up level & have found out he's a MLB player.
This is only one piece of a bigger puzzle but its the reasoning on why MN has had one of the absolute worst records in baseball the past 2 yrs as this is how they veiw their minor league players/develpment..... things like playing in minor league playoffs bein more important than challenging a successful player to a new level or 2


Congrats on proving healthy players move thru the minors faster than injured ones? Eaton has an extra 140 games in the minors, it makes sense he'll be at a higher level. Roberts didn't get promoted in 2012 because he missed most of the second half in Beloit in 2011 and then is injured to start 2012. Seems fairly prudent to not add the challenge of tougher competition on top of trying to recover from injuries. If Roberts has manages to put together a healthy, productive season, there's a good chance he'd get promoted midseason, but he hasn't done that thus far.

#4 Mr. Ed

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:12 AM

You're fighting a losing battle in here ggoblin.

Apparently station to station baseball is also acceptable in the minors advancing guys for some.

Roberts had nothing to prove in lo-A, and now they're putting him in the AZ Fall league. Hope he doesn't flop there, because he needed to see
better competition.

Moving him up would have helped Max Kepler or Walker,who could have played lo-A ball for part of the year.

You're right, there were no FM outfielders, once Arcia was gone, that were so much better. Rams was playing some LF this year.

Again we consistently see the majority of the talent in the lower levels. Where they fizzle, only to have someone else they draft take a top spot in the org depth.

Too often.

#5 Seth Stohs

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:26 AM

Normally I'm quick to come up with reasons that a player stays back instead of getting pushed. I think that it was great for Kepler to stay in E-Town because he was mediocre the first year there and this year he was able to thrive. As for Walker, yes, he hit a lot of home runs, but he also struckout a ton. I'm not sure pushing him to Beloit would have made a lot of sense. Danny Ortiz was moved from Beloit to Ft. Myers after about a month this year. I also think that the Twins invested enough in Danny Rams that they needed to give him a shot. I can come up with reasons for about everything. I'm even completely good with the idea of letting players play in the playoffs with the team they've been with once it's into late July or early August. To me, that's fair.

But I can't come up with one for Roberts. Once he showed he was healthy, he should have been moved up. (That was probably in about mid-June.) In my opinion. I mean to Ft. Myers... there really isn't a comparison between him and Eaton at this point because of the injuries.

#6 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:32 AM

Players can fizzleout because they don't get promotedwhen they should. Roberts, of course, hasn't fizzled out yet and I hope they are aggressive next year. He is the kind of player who should be fine in A+ and the real test will come in AA. This is also a team that mistakenly demoted Joe Benson back to AA instead of having him work it out up where he belongs. Same for Tosoni. But, you know, Clete Thomas was too important at AAA . . .

I suspect the Fort Myers OF will be Roberts-Ortiz-Morales.

#7 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:33 AM

Investing in Danny Rams as a catcher is one thing, as an outfielder is kind of a joke. No future for that guy.

#8 Mr. Ed

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:52 AM

Players can fizzleout because they don't get promotedwhen they should. Roberts, of course, hasn't fizzled out yet and I hope they are aggressive next year. He is the kind of player who should be fine in A+ and the real test will come in AA. This is also a team that mistakenly demoted Joe Benson back to AA instead of having him work it out up where he belongs. Same for Tosoni. But, you know, Clete Thomas was too important at AAA . . .

I suspect the Fort Myers OF will be Roberts-Ortiz-Morales.


Morales continued to struggle this year. His time is about up as well.

#9 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:00 AM

Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.

#10 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:29 AM

Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.


Other than Revere and Parmelee (who are still mildly questionable as full-time starters, and add Plouffe), that list goes back 5 years and then 8 and then 10+.

Besides that, there still is a sense of merit for achievement and proper development guys deserving a chance, right? I don't know, I have a sense of justice that gets bothered by this kind of thing (Slama the biggest pitching example). That's not a consideration everyone is going to share.

But besides that I am not optimistic about how the Twins are going to treat Arcia and Hicks this year--I could see them "Parmeleeing" both of them for 2013 and then STILL be left with question marks for 2014. Or I could see them "Doziering" both of them and STILL be left with question marks for 2014. Consistent promotions through AAA (with at least 200 PA there) just makes sense to me.

#11 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:30 AM

Players can fizzleout because they don't get promotedwhen they should. Roberts, of course, hasn't fizzled out yet and I hope they are aggressive next year. He is the kind of player who should be fine in A+ and the real test will come in AA. This is also a team that mistakenly demoted Joe Benson back to AA instead of having him work it out up where he belongs. Same for Tosoni. But, you know, Clete Thomas was too important at AAA . . .

I suspect the Fort Myers OF will be Roberts-Ortiz-Morales.


Morales continued to struggle this year. His time is about up as well.


Well he does have more potential than Danny Rams, but you are right. However, given that they kept ANDY LEER and Anderson Hidalgo around, who knows what they'll do.

#12 gunnarthor

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:52 AM

Lots of things wrong with the premise of this post - the idea that one player represents the system is a bit of a reach. Eaton, I would think, fell in part because he's short but he showed that he was the better player and could stay healthy. I'm also not sure if Roberts was blocked by better OFers.

Twins have had some guys go fast through the minors - Hendriks, for example, missed all of his age 19 season and maybe had pitched 250 minor league innings under his belt before he was called up.

#13 Alex

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:03 PM

Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.


There are literally just two (maybe three) above average proven hitters in that MLB list at their position. Cuddyer, Kubel are what you'd get from most corner outfielders. Revere and Parmelee have yet to prove anything yet, and while Revere has an interesting skillset, he's not a good hitter overall. Span has proven he can get on base (he's the maybe) but hasn't been able to put together a full good season in three years.

It's also frighteningly apparent that the Twins haven't been able to produce a respectable slugger since Morneau. That may change in the near future, but I'd argue that "churning out very good hitters for ten years" is a bit of an exaggeration. I can't think of a season in the last 10 years where they had a fearsome lineup.

Edited by Alex, 11 September 2012 - 12:09 PM.


#14 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:13 PM

Consistent promotions through AAA (with at least 200 PA there) just makes sense to me.


I agree. If a player can't succeed against those who are not good enough to be on the MLB roster, than what makes us think they'll succeed against a higher calibre of opposition?

#15 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:09 PM

When starting this post, it wasnt totally about Eaton/Roberts but rather about how slow everday players are promoted.
Can you name the last everyday player to make his MLB debut 2 full yrs after their draft....i cant as Mauer was the beginning of his 3rd
Other teams fairly regularly do. Why not here. Im just frustrated but its not only the FOffice as Gardy has never been a fan of younger players....he prefers the Carsons over the Hicks

Edited by greengoblinrulz, 11 September 2012 - 01:13 PM.


#16 gunnarthor

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:18 PM

When starting this post, it wasnt totally about Eaton/Roberts but rather about how slow everday players are promoted.
Can you name the last everyday player to make his MLB debut 2 full yrs after their draft....i cant as Mauer was the beginning of his 3rd
Other teams fairly regularly do. Why not here. Im just frustrated but its not only the FOffice as Gardy has never been a fan of younger players....he prefers the Carsons over the Hicks


I'm pretty sure most teams do not "fairly regularly" debut players within two years. And, as I mentioned in a different thread on nearly this topic, Mauer had fewer MiLB at bats than Trout when he was promoted.

#17 nicksaviking

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:40 PM

When starting this post, it wasnt totally about Eaton/Roberts but rather about how slow everday players are promoted.
Can you name the last everyday player to make his MLB debut 2 full yrs after their draft....i cant as Mauer was the beginning of his 3rd
Other teams fairly regularly do. Why not here. Im just frustrated but its not only the FOffice as Gardy has never been a fan of younger players....he prefers the Carsons over the Hicks


I agree the promotions are often undeservedly slow, but the Twins tend to draft college arms and HS bats. Rarely does a HS player make it to the majors in 2 years. However you would think a 21-year-old would make it once in awhile.

As for Mauer, there was no reason he needed to spend an entire year at Beloit. He did just fine coming out of AA, but he probably would have been even more prepared had he already been in AAA which likely would have happened if he would have split a season between Beloit and Ft. Myers.

I don't have a huge issue with how the Twins handle the guys from A+ ball up. The problem is Beloit. For some reason the Twins think every HS draftee needs to work out all their kinks in low A ball instead of using that level as a rest stop on their way to Ft. Myers where the real coaches and instructors are. Arcia got out of Wisconsin early last year and maybe that's a sign the orgainzation is ready to change, but forcing everyone to spend an entire year there turns it into a waiting room, not a development camp.

#18 joeboo_22

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:10 PM

I don't have a problem with holding a high schooler or an international player back an extra year. But the 22-23 year old college draftees need to be pushed through the system. It needs to be a they flamed out or they succeeded, not a well he wasn't 100% ready so we kept him an extra year in low A.

#19 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:09 PM

The main issue is that the Twins don't seem to like the idea of using every level in the minors as a place for prospects to get time. That is, they think of AAA as merely a dumping ground for so-called "veterans" like Joe Thurston and Clete Thomas (being older does not make one a veteran). The result is that there can be a logjam that develops and there clearly is one in terms of OF prospects. Beloit next year is going to be packed with them somehow.

#20 Riverbrian

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:47 PM

while Revere has an interesting skillset, he's not a good hitter overall.


If Revere isn't a good hitter... The list of good hitters gets pretty tiny.

#21 snepp

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:56 PM

Offensively he's been roughly league average if you include base running value. Whether that is a "good hitter" or not depends on the definition I guess.

#22 Shane Wahl

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 12:25 AM

Revere is a good hitter. He is not yet a good batter.

#23 mike wants wins

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:11 AM

I think the biggest difference in philosophy between the Twins and winners is the Twins lack of willingness to deal big time prospects for proven major league players.

#24 jimbo92107

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:20 AM

Unfortunately, the knee injury to Roberts completely blows your comparison. I'm not saying you're wrong about your overall point, but a bad knee will definitely keep a guy from moving up, in any organization.

#25 jimbo92107

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:48 AM

The Twins minor league teams are missing something other than their promotion policy. What they should be teaching is an attitude of hammer down, full speed aggressive baseball.

I'm talking about pushing the envelop beyond sound limits, then learning how to pull back just enough to win. That means stealing bases a lot more, which means taking chances and at first getting thrown out, a lot. It means every pitcher works more on pick-off moves. It means your players learn more tricks. It means you go up to bat with a swing-first attitude.

Yeah, it also means your guys will get struck out and thrown out a lot more, at first. But it's better for a player to learn to tone down aggression than to ramp it up later in their career. Right now the Twins minor league system is producing lots of meticulously coached, very careful, overly passive ball players.

Joe Mauer is the perfect example of what they were trying to achieve. Mauer never gets mad, hardly ever swings at pitches outside the zone, is squeaky clean, and sets a standard that is practically impossible for a typical human. He's like a baseball computer out there, and every move he makes is done correctly.

Tell you what, I liked A.J. Pierzynski better. He gets dirty, he gets mad, he swears, he swings really hard. Opponents hate him and his fans love him. Thing about A.J. is, he plays the game with emotion. He's aggressive, which is fun to watch.

I have no objection to managers like Kelly or Gardenhire as the calm captain, but that doesn't mean you want a team full of calm, calculating players. A guy like Dan Gladden wouldn't be on today's Twins very long, because he gets too emotional, and he's too aggressive. Too much like Dustin Pedroia. I guess players like that don't fit the corporate model of a team owned by bankers.

#26 Twins Twerp

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:50 AM

The conversation should be less about the speed at which the organization promotes and more about the lack of talent we have had in the system. The past 10 or so years I would say, we haven't signed (latin) or drafted anyone worth promoting through the system at a rapid pace. The jury is still out on Arcia, Hicks, Sano and others signed recently. But after Kubel, there really was no one that we drafted that panned out. This may be the chicken or the egg argument, but I think the front office should be hammered more for drafting poorly, than developing poorly.

#27 gunnarthor

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 09:15 AM

I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

#28 Shane Wahl

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 10:26 AM

I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.


Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.

#29 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 11:24 AM

There is a difference in HS draftees vs collegiate also but MN handles them the same.....go to ELIZ then BEL then Ft Myerse etc.....college guys need to be pushed much much faster in this organiation.
What frustrates me is that MN advances players due to age not due to success BUT then turns around & promotes a guy like Steve Liddle (just an ex). They just dont promote drafted college guys (outside of rounds 1 or 2) as quickly when they show success......gotta do it according to team guidlelines I guess!!!! This is how you end up with a 25yr old Brian Dozier not ever being in AAA for ex.
MN tends to argue they place their older players 'where they have the best probability to succeed' Heard that from Jim Rantz far too often instead of challenging a guy & see if better competition brings it out in the player.

#30 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 11:28 AM

I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.


Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)