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Article: What To Do With Byron Buxton?

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#41 Riverbrian

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 06:00 AM

 

I can't see anyway the Twins can get away with Option B if he's healthy. No minor league games for him to play in, MLB rosters have expanded, but you're just going to send him home?

 

What defense would they have against a claim that it's blatant service time manipulation? There should absolutely be a grievance filed if that happens. Now would/should the Twins care about that? I don't know, those take years to resolve, so in reality maybe it doesn't matter much. Still, it'd be a bad look.

 

I'm sure the Twins would love it if Buxton just suffered another injury that was bad enough to shut him down for the year, but not serious to the point where it would threaten his 2019 season. 

 

Watch your back out there, Byron ...

 

:)

 

I admit I don't know the answer with 100% certainty but I'm fairly baseball attentive and I don't recall a ton of reports of clubs getting nailed by grievances filed by the MLBPA.

 

Frankly, the CBA not only allows service time manipulation, it basically encourages it. 

 

The Cubs manipulated service time with Kris Bryant 

The Astros manipulated service time with George Springer

The Braves manipulated service time with Ronald Acuna

The Yankees manipulated service time with Greyber Torres

 

The list is waaaaaayyyyyy longer than this... "the bad look" is worn by every major league club and it doesn't appear as if the bad look has cost the Cubs or Astros or Yankeees in terms of acquiring players. 

 

 

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#42 mazeville

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 06:16 AM

Come on. Let's get real.

 

Byron Buxton needs to be up this year, taking a shot against major league breaking balls. 

 

This is not a debate. It is exactly what the Twins will do. And it is exactly what the Twins should do. He needs to be up at the major league level, getting that bat of his back in shape. 

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#43 spycake

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 06:50 AM

I admit I don't know the answer with 100% certainty but I'm fairly baseball attentive and I don't recall a ton of reports of clubs getting nailed by grievances filed by the MLBPA.

Frankly, the CBA not only allows service time manipulation, it basically encourages it.

The Cubs manipulated service time with Kris Bryant
The Astros manipulated service time with George Springer
The Braves manipulated service time with Ronald Acuna
The Yankees manipulated service time with Greyber Torres

The list is waaaaaayyyyyy longer than this... "the bad look" is worn by every major league club and it doesn't appear as if the bad look has cost the Cubs or Astros or Yankeees in terms of acquiring players.


All of those guys had service time manipulation at the very beginning of their careers. If you have never promoted a player to your MLB roster before, you can pretty much always find a justification for keeping them in the minors. And the player can't do much about it, because he is not even in the MLBPA yet -- he is not the union's primary concern.

Not so with a player like Buxton. The Twins have promoted him to MLB several times already. To skip out on a promotion after the minor league season ends, the Twins would need a reasonably compelling reason, or they probably could expect Buxton and his union to file a grievance.

I expect the Twins could present such a reason, but if Buxton demonstrates health and good performance at AAA, it will be tougher. And it could be acrimonious.
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#44 mikelink45

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 06:59 AM

If Buxton is hot and the minors When September Comes then he should come up and try to have some success in the majors to build off. If he's struggling in the minors and takes September and the winter off. I'm not worried about when he's 28 I'm concerned about getting the best out of him for next year and the year after. It's up to the front office to handle contracts. What a Buxton who is healthy and having success in the majors is something we can build off in a positive way and something that I hope will provide him with a platform for future success. At this point nothing he's done in the majors other than his speed and Fielding it gives me hope that we are going to maximize his talent. So whatever we do let's push for the best he can be and not try to think about super twos and future contracts
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#45 Tom Froemming

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 07:18 AM

 

I admit I don't know the answer with 100% certainty but I'm fairly baseball attentive and I don't recall a ton of reports of clubs getting nailed by grievances filed by the MLBPA.

 

Frankly, the CBA not only allows service time manipulation, it basically encourages it. 

 

The Cubs manipulated service time with Kris Bryant 

The Astros manipulated service time with George Springer

The Braves manipulated service time with Ronald Acuna

The Yankees manipulated service time with Greyber Torres

 

The list is waaaaaayyyyyy longer than this... "the bad look" is worn by every major league club and it doesn't appear as if the bad look has cost the Cubs or Astros or Yankeees in terms of acquiring players. 

I know for sure Bryant filed a grievance, but I believe that's still unresolved.

 

The big difference is those guys had their MLB debuts delayed. I think it's a lot more reasonable to say you couldn't find a spot for a rookie on your 25-man roster.

 

Byron Buxton was honored as the best defensive player in baseball last season, finished 18th in AL MVP voting and the would be held off of an expanded roster. This situation may also be addressed differently because, unlike those other guys at the time, Buxton is already in the union.

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#46 Number3

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 07:37 AM

As usual, these issues are made much more complicated than they need to be. Byron Buxton is a Major League baseball player. If he is healthy enough he should be playing at the Major League level. If he goes home he could be hurt walking down the stairs. Chances of getting hurt in the minor leagues just as great. He needs the competition. Bring him up and let him play with nothing at stake. If he gets hurt again, better find out now that in April, 2019.

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#47 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 07:39 AM

Didn't JJ Hardy get his time manipulated in a similar fashion when he was with the Brewers? 

 

I don't believe he won that... and honestly, Buxton has zero ground to stand on if the Twins did it. His performance speaks for itself, and a hot few weeks in August isn't going to change that, nor should it. 

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#48 Thebigalguy

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 07:39 AM

If the Buckman is healthy, bring him up pronto, like yesterday. If there’s any question about health, shut him down. No ifs no ands no buts. Rochester is pointless. Buying a year of control is unethical and will cost more than it’s worth in goodwill. Give the Buckman as much rope as he can handle.

#49 spycake

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:04 AM

 

Didn't JJ Hardy get his time manipulated in a similar fashion when he was with the Brewers? 

 

I don't believe he won that... and honestly, Buxton has zero ground to stand on if the Twins did it. His performance speaks for itself, and a hot few weeks in August isn't going to change that, nor should it. 

JJ Hardy was demoted to AAA in on August 12, 2009. He was having his worst MLB season at the time, and the Brewers promoted BA's #19/#12 overall prospect prospect to directly take his place, Alcides Escobar -- and Escobar did in fact outperform Hardy in terms of OPS the rest of the year. Hardy was also recalled immediately when rosters expanded on Sep. 1, 20 days later.

 

Of course, the Brewers also didn't keep Hardy around to deal with any potential acrimony -- they traded him for Carlos Gomez basically as soon as the offseason started (Nov. 6). So even if holding down Buxton was easier to justify, it could be a bigger deal down the road for the Twins.

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#50 RaymondLuxuryYacht

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:05 AM

I don't suppose he is eligible for the AFL

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#51 spycake

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:15 AM

 

But, at this moment... we are theoretically in contention for 2019. 

 

Not so much in 2018.:)

But it's kind of a catch-22.

 

On one hand, 2018 is indeed lost, so perhaps there's no sense wasting service time in 2018.

 

But if 2019 is important, you want the player ready on opening day if at all possible, so maybe September 2018 isn't really a "waste" of service time after all.

 

With an option remaining for 2019, I'm increasingly thinking that it might be a win-win to promote him this September (assuming he's healthy and performing in Rochester, of course). Either it benefits him toward becoming a good MLB hitter again by opening day 2019, in which case we'll all be very thankful given the alternative. Or if it doesn't, he will probably need 29 days in the minors next year anyway.

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#52 spycake

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:17 AM

 

I don't suppose he is eligible for the AFL

Ha! No. I think 1 year MLB service time is the max for AFL players.

 

Could do winter ball, but like all players -- do you want him to risk injury in winter ball?

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#53 Don't Feed the Greed Guy

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:23 AM

I was at the game last night in Columbus. What's missing in this deabate and the recent bias toward a 3 for 5, 4 RBI (no k's) night was Buxton's ordinarily spectacular fielding. He ran down a drive to deep left-center that would have scored two and kept Gonsalves' ERA over 3. Bring him up in September, and offer a team-friendly extension in the off-season. Now is the time to buy low on Buxton. BTW: Huntington Park is awesome!

#54 Nick Nelson

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:25 AM

 

I know for sure Bryant filed a grievance, but I believe that's still unresolved.

 

The big difference is those guys had their MLB debuts delayed. I think it's a lot more reasonable to say you couldn't find a spot for a rookie on your 25-man roster.

 

Byron Buxton was honored as the best defensive player in baseball last season, finished 18th in AL MVP voting and the would be held off of an expanded roster. This situation may also be addressed differently because, unlike those other guys at the time, Buxton is already in the union.

So he would file a grievance and base it entirely on performance from the previous season? That doesn't seem totally frivolous to you? 

 

In order to make such a claim Buxton would need to show that Minnesota's intent with their handling of him was not in good faith, and almost entirely to manipulate his service time. I don't think that's a case you can make. They optioned him originally in early July and there was no angst at that time because it was justified. He then got hurt and (up to this point) hasn't performed well enough to warrant a recall. 

 

I'll grant that if he keeps hitting like he did last night the dynamic changes. But if he's whiffing at a 35% rate and hitting .220 when the Triple-A season wraps up, I don't think the Twins would really need to "defend" their decision not to recall him, especially with other outfielders earning their playing time and Buxton's health in a constantly precarious state. 

 

This report has some really good and comprehensive info on the topic:

Though it seems obvious in some of the service time manipulation case studies that MLB clubs are acting with the goal of preventing a player from accruing service time, it may be difficult to allege that the club did not still act within the MLBPA’s reasonable expectations. Assignment to the major league roster involves discretion that is exercised by highly sophisticated player personnel departments.

Alleging that a club used this vast discretion for unexpected reasons may be a daunting task unless a club official clearly admits to ulterior motives.Likely cognizant of this, club officials in the case studies examined in this Note vehemently deny that a player’s assignment to the minor league roster has anything to do with service time.

 

 

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#55 RaymondLuxuryYacht

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:38 AM

 

Ha! No. I think 1 year MLB service time is the max for AFL players.

 

Could do winter ball, but like all players -- do you want him to risk injury in winter ball?

I couldn't find the sarcasm font

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#56 ashburyjohn

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:43 AM

Ha! No. I think 1 year MLB service time is the max for AFL players.

 

Could do winter ball, but like all players -- do you want him to risk injury in winter ball?

 

I couldn't find the sarcasm font

 

Outfit our players with these. Problem solved. You're welcome.

 

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#57 chaderic20

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:45 AM

I think an important factor that none of us will ever know, and will be up to the FO and coaches to weigh, is Buxton's mental state.Is he completely frazzled after a frustrating season and straining/pushing himself trying to break through?If so, maybe it'd be better to not call him up, and actually tell him to disappear somewhere warm and tropical for the month of September and don't touch a baseball or bat while you're gone.Get physically healthy, clear your head, and we'll see you for offseason workouts in a month and you better be ready to work hard.


#58 spycake

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:54 AM

 

So he would file a grievance and base it entirely on performance from the previous season? That doesn't seem totally frivolous to you? 

 

In order to make such a claim Buxton would need to show that Minnesota's intent with their handling of him was not in good faith, and almost entirely to manipulate his service time. I don't think that's a case you can make. They optioned him originally in early July and there was no angst at that time because it was justified. He then got hurt and (up to this point) hasn't performed well enough to warrant a recall. 

 

I'll grant that if he keeps hitting like he did last night the dynamic changes. But if he's whiffing at a 35% rate and hitting .220 when the Triple-A season wraps up, I don't think the Twins would really need to "defend" their decision not to recall him, especially with other outfielders earning their playing time and Buxton's health in a constantly precarious state. 

 

This report has some really good and comprehensive info on the topic:

 

Nick, I just scanned that article, and the names listed were Bryant, Gregory Polanco, Singleton, and Springer. Those were all players who had their initial MLB call-ups manipulated. The Buxton situation is different -- this is a player who has already been on the MLB roster, he's already represented by the player's union, and he will have nowhere else to play in September.

 

I don't think Buxton would win a grievance, but if he performs at AAA and demonstrates health over the next few weeks, it certainly wouldn't be frivolous. And even if the Twins can "win" the grievance process, in some ways they might "lose" just be letting it get to that point.

 

If we were talking about a pitcher, it would be far easier to justify the "shut down" plan. But I think a position player like Buxton makes that a less convincing case.

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#59 yarnivek1972

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:59 AM

Nick, I just scanned that article, and the names listed were Bryant, Gregory Polanco, Singleton, and Springer. Those were all players who had their initial MLB call-ups manipulated. The Buxton situation is different -- this is a player who has already been on the MLB roster, he's already represented by the player's union, and he will have nowhere else to play in September.

I don't think Buxton would win a grievance, but if he performs at AAA and demonstrates health over the next few weeks, it certainly wouldn't be frivolous. And even if the Twins can "win" the grievance process, in some ways they might "lose" just be letting it get to that point.

If we were talking about a pitcher, it would be far easier to justify the "shut down" plan. But I think a position player like Buxton makes that a less convincing case.


idk, the presumed reason to shut a pitcher down is to prevent injury, right? Pretty much everyone in this thread has said that is definitely part of the reason to shut Byron down.

#60 The Wise One

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 09:02 AM

Glen Perkins comes to mind.Eflin might lose enough time with his 10 day demotion.I am sure there are more players with mlb experience sent down As far as Buxton goes, almost 1000 PA, before this season, .701 ops. Can he do a Dozier or a JD Martinez?

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