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Article: DET 5, MIN 3: Is There Anything Left?

ervin santana
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#21 mngopherguy

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:55 PM

 

A. Ervin Santana has not a "great" career.He was never ever close to a Cy Young award,He has been an average number 3 pitcher in a good team. (Great for him, he made $)

 

B. Comparing him to Maddux, especially after he has been lit by AAAA players this season, kinda, really, surely, absolutely, does not work.

 

C. And he is yet another year removed from PEDs

 

 

Semantics.Anyone who can play in MLB for 14 seasons has had a pretty damn good career that 99.9% of baseball players would dream of.  

 

I don't see where he was compared to Maddux.Maddux was one of a kind.  

 

Agreed, that does sully his rep non doubt.

 

I don't think the Twins should resign him even at a reduced price.He looks done to me.I guess his is the argument for running him out there for another month.

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#22 DocBauer

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:01 PM

Still, with all the pitching we have in AAA and the fact we won’t be competing for the playoffs next year we have no use for for a 37 year old starting pitcher especially if it blocks Fernando Romero from pitching for the Twins next year.


NOT disagreeing with you at all!

This team has a nucleus that shouldn't be denied. Just to be accurate, Santana would be 36 next season.

My whole point was, forget age for a moment, what has Santana been most of his career, and what has he been the last 2 years for the Twins? Easy answer, pretty damn good. Is he done? Yeah, maybe he is. But again, lots of variables, we are not talking about a surgery and recovery for TJ or TOR or a hip or knee. Is he worth, maybe, a flier on a 1 year deal with incentives?

Look, Gonsalves should already be up. Romero should be up and getting ready for 2019 as well. Pineda could be a big boost, but could find himself in the pen with May. (Not necessarily a bad thing) Mejia will be with the club as a starter, or in the pen. Thorpe has the potential to be as good or better than Gonsalves or Mejia. But unless we make some BIG FA move or trade move, we have some guys to work with and build around.

Audition Santana for the rest of the season or not. Bring him back on a 1 year flier or not. Isn't it worth considering at least?
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#23 FormerMinnasotan

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:14 PM

NOT disagreeing with you at all!

This team has a nucleus that shouldn't be denied. Just to be accurate, Santana would be 36 next season.

My whole point was, forget age for a moment, what has Santana been most of his career, and what has he been the last 2 years for the Twins? Easy answer, pretty damn good. Is he done? Yeah, maybe he is. But again, lots of variables, we are not talking about a surgery and recovery for TJ or TOR or a hip or knee. Is he worth, maybe, a flier on a 1 year deal with incentives?

Look, Gonsalves should already be up. Romero should be up and getting ready for 2019 as well. Pineda could be a big boost, but could find himself in the pen with May. (Not necessarily a bad thing) Mejia will be with the club as a starter, or in the pen. Thorpe has the potential to be as good or better than Gonsalves or Mejia. But unless we make some BIG FA move or trade move, we have some guys to work with and build around.

Audition Santana for the rest of the season or not. Bring him back on a 1 year flier or not. Isn't it worth considering at least?

I guess I am a bigger let the kids play kinda guy considering what we have. I suppose if we could get Santana for under $10 million it may be tempting but I also hope that the Twins alleviate the log jam of minor league arms. I see Fernando Romero at the point of his career that Berrios was in 2016, the only difference is Romero has pitched more capablely in his 1st year in the bigs than Berrios did so conventional wisdom should be that he’ll be even more ready next year and with his immense skill set I don’t want to see him even start the year in AAA. That will set up Lewis Thorpe being moved up to a crowded Rochester rotation and give some mid season promotion opportunities for the likes of Sean Poppen, Tyler Wells, and Brusdar Graterol.
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#24 TheLeviathan

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:25 PM

Near as I recall, I don't remember Falvey or Levine stinking it up during any games on their way to being 8 games under .500.  

 

I love all these people "rah rah"ing a guy who is passing the blame.Yeah, he was candid, but he refused to take accountability like an adult.You want candid?  

 

Don't suck your way to a 48-56 record and maybe your FO doesn't sell.That's candid and it also has the benefit to be truth rather than sour grapes.

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#25 Tom Froemming

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:28 PM

 

Audition Santana for the rest of the season or not. Bring him back on a 1 year flier or not. Isn't it worth considering at least?

Here's the projected 2019 rotation right now:

 

Berrios

Gibson

Odorizzi

Pineda

Mejia

 

It's likely somebody in that mix will be hurt, but it's also likely there will be another addition over the offseason, whether it be via free agency or from a trade. So as it stands, all of the prospects are already on the outside looking in even next season. Ervin would have to return to his 2017 form in short order and sustain that through the rest of the season for me to seriously consider bringing him back.

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#26 Rosterman

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:38 PM

At some point you just eat the remaining salary of people that will not be abck next season. Give those innings and at bats to someone else.

 

Go with a six-man rotation, if you must, to see Goncalves, Romero, Littell and Stewart as part of the mix.

 

You already have to pencil in Pineda, too.

 

You have to have a look at Gordon at second base. You need to see Tyler Austin at the plate,m and maybe even advance Bent Rooker...if nothing else have Rooker play the remainder of the season at Rochester now that Austin is up here and Vargas is probably a lost cause.

 

YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY OUT CONTRACTS, YOU JUST HAVE TO PAY OUT CONTRACTS if you can't move the pieces.

 

And, when you look at the bigegr picture, we will probably see that once Molitor can figure out a lineup (he ahsn't yet, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised)...any new pieces might perform as well as jettisoned pieces. Santana and Lynn haven't been lighting up the game for the Twins. Rodney made saves a nail biter. Dozier may be hitting now, but he certainly didn't in the past. Press;y (like Hildenberger) was overworked. Morrison is having a career year...the other way. Escobar is truly missed. But even Mauer makes you question just how much you wish to pay him for 2019. So that is why we HAVE to see what the system can give us.

 

On the radio earlier today was talking about going out and getting quality free agents for ALL these positions. NO - ADMIT IT - REBUILDING THE TWINS and it got derailed when a glimmer of hope materialized last year (it wasn't THAT GREAT of a season, folks). We have to do it all again in 2019. And young guys will egt more of a chance and other young guys may be pushed a bit.

 

Maybe.

 

Still haven't figured out a front office that still favors waiver wire claims, will give work to Forsythe and Wilson, and...try their darndest to put an upbeat spin on everything.

 

Okay, who IS the leader in the clubhouse. Not Ervin, from what I can read.

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#27 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:56 PM

 

Near as I recall, I don't remember Falvey or Levine stinking it up during any games on their way to being 8 games under .500.  

 

I love all these people "rah rah"ing a guy who is passing the blame.Yeah, he was candid, but he refused to take accountability like an adult.You want candid?  

 

Don't suck your way to a 48-56 record and maybe your FO doesn't sell.That's candid and it also has the benefit to be truth rather than sour grapes.

You're joking, right? Castro went down, and they failed to find a reliable catcher. Buxton was allowed to play on a broken toe. They ought to have stepped in and kept Reed from being overworked. Those are the ones that pop to mind. 

 

As far as Santana not "taking accountability" tonight, he said he missed his spots on those pitches that went for home runs. There was no sour grapes in that interview. I don't know what else he is supposed to say. 

 

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#28 TheLeviathan

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:02 PM

 

You're joking, right? Castro went down, and they failed to find a reliable catcher. Buxton was allowed to play on a broken toe. They ought to have stepped in and kept Reed from being overworked. Those are the ones that pop to mind. 

 

As far as Santana not "taking accountability" tonight, he said he missed his spots on those pitches that went for home runs. There was no sour grapes in that interview. I don't know what else he is supposed to say. 

 

You're right.They should've gone all in on the 48-56 team.We were just lying in wait.

 

Maybe your points about earlier in the season are valid, seems worth talking about.But any points about July 29th are flat out ridiculous.And so were Ervin's comments about "giving up".That nonsense needs to end.It's over.The right thing was done.Move on.

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#29 Borealis

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:11 PM

It’s almost like NOT playing Morrison, Santana, and Odorizzi would actually increase the likelihood of another team taking a flier on one of them. Like George Costanza - his presence in his office could only hurt him lol.

Same goes for Addison Reed now that I think about it. Had such high hopes for him too. I for one, feel there’s something wrong with him physically that he’s been playing thru for quite some time. His stuff was pretty filthy upon arrival - especially the breaking ball. Now, not so much.
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#30 spycake

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:20 PM

Near as I recall, I don't remember Falvey or Levine stinking it up during any games on their way to being 8 games under .500.

"Hey guys, meet your new teammate, (same as your old teammate), Matty Belisle! Good luck, we're all counting on you."

Edit to add: just trying to make an "Airplane!" joke. :)

Edited by spycake, 10 August 2018 - 11:55 PM.

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#31 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:21 PM

 

You're right.They should've gone all in on the 48-56 team.We were just lying in wait.

 

Maybe your points about earlier in the season are valid, seems worth talking about.But any points about July 29th are flat out ridiculous.And so were Ervin's comments about "giving up".That nonsense needs to end.It's over.The right thing was done.Move on.

I am fine with him answering the question that way. If I were in that locker room I'd be pissed too. 

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#32 spycake

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:54 PM

After the game, Santana did what you'd expect a professional veteran ballplayer to do. He took responsibility for his shortcomings and ... oh wait, no, he didn't. Jump head to about the 1:20 mark on this postgame interview:

I didn't hear that as Ervin passing the buck on this game. He addressed this game at the start of the video. Here, he was asked specifically about losing Rodney, and he was answering in general about the difficulty and frustration of the whole situation.

And it's tough. The front office DID give up, even if you think it was the right decision, even if you think the players are ultimately to blame for putting themselves in that position. The front office still had to pull the trigger, and I don't think that can just be ignored, or we can expect everyone -- especially players -- to have gotten past that in just 2 weeks. It was a difficult and complex situation. The front office even felt it necessary to address the situation in a letter to season ticket holders. I am not sure how they have addressed it to the team behind closed doors, but that is probably informing Ervin's reaction here too. I am sure it has been tough for the front office -- heck, it's been a mildly tough situation for some of us fans -- and I imagine it's even tougher as players who are ultimately closest to its immediate ramifications.

I may not agree with Ervin, but I'm not going to criticize him for expressing his frustration in this way, in this context. Likewise, I'm not jumping down the throat of the front office either (even if I attempt Airplane! and Spinal Tap jokes at their expense :) ). I think there is still room for different feelings in this conversation, especially as moves are still happening (like Rodney).

Edited by spycake, 10 August 2018 - 11:56 PM.

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#33 Platoon

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 04:31 AM

First off I don't think the FO gave up anything. There was nothing to give up. In the context of the Twins orginisation, the FO went as far as "all in" as they could this spring. And then some bad luck, and bad performances happened. They are well documented. But what does surprise me is that some of the players who were the cause of the sell of, are the most vocal about giving up. There was no reason to continue the present course any further. Expiring contracts for next year made that inevitable. For those who thought we could resign Dozier, the only way that was going to happen is if nobody else took him. For amateur GM's like me, that should be a non analytical value of his services. Time will tell if the Twins have enough MiLB talent to put together a competitive team. But at least this FO made the move to find out. I say this with the expectation that as time goes on they will continue to transition the lineup. I don't expect them to wave a magic wand. 40 and 25 man roster issues, and frankly service time issues impact those decisions, far more than I can comprehend. Yes I want to see Belisle gone, and guys like Rooker and Romereo up for a look see, but not if it costs a year of control. As for Gordon, no. He doesn't seem to be able to handle AAA yet. Finally, Molitor has to go, period, full stop! His lack of any sort of enthusiasm for any player under thirty without ten years in the league is non conducive with the direction this team is going. His BP usage is ridiculous, he has pitchers sitting while he puts catchers on the mound. No, that didn't impact that game, but I bet they loved him in the pen. He has to go, you cannot do a rebuild with someone like him in the dugout. I just hope that his continued employment is not determined by Pohlad. Sadly we will never know. JP forever poisoned that well with his "Molitor will stay" proclamation!
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#34 wsnydes

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 05:46 AM

I think the point being missed, including by Erv, is that they weren't winning with their best pieces. So, complaining about not being able to win without your best pieces is really misguided and silly.

I don't really care so much about what he said as it relates to the sell off, I like to see frustration with how this season has gone. Their job is to win games with the players available and they didn't do that, which is why the current situation exists.
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#35 spycake

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 06:29 AM

I think the point being missed, including by Erv, is that they weren't winning with their best pieces. So, complaining about not being able to win without your best pieces is really misguided and silly.

I don't really care so much about what he said as it relates to the sell off, I like to see frustration with how this season has gone. Their job is to win games with the players available and they didn't do that, which is why the current situation exists.


I think you are being a bit too critical of a few sentences given at the end of a postgame interview in response to a specific question about losing Rodney. For all we know, if there had been a follow-up question about the team's poor record through 4 months, Ervin might have acknowledged how the players contributed. That wouldn't really invalidate his previous response, though.

It's still a tough situation. Especially for Ervin, he didn't even get to play until late July -- I wouldn't be surprised if, as a competitor, he imagined his absence contributed to us falling behind Cleveland, and his return could help us catch them. That's probably misguided given his current stuff, but is understandable given the pro athlete's mindset. For better or worse, these guys generally don't get where they are by admitting long odds or dwelling on their failures.

Back to Tom's implications, I don't think Ervin got unprofessional here at all, given the context.
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#36 Riverbrian

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 06:47 AM

 

Was he paying attention to the game?

 

Logan Forsythe, Brian Dozier's replacement, had two hits. Ehire Adrianza, playing Eduardo Escobar's old position tonight, had three hits. But it's too bad the deflated bullpen blew it. Oh wait, no, Oliver Drake threw two no-hit innings.

 

Hell of a thing for him to say on a night where the replacement guys were great.

 

He was asked this question "The Trade of Fernando. How tough is that for...you as a friend and how tough is that as a team"? 

 

That question was an abrupt segue from the game. 

 

He answered the question. 

 

If you ever wonder why we need PR departments, or why players should stay off social media. Please consider your reaction to his answer and how counter productive it is to getting actual inside information. 

 

He left the public relations handbook for a brief moment and you were right there to quickly slap him for it. 

 

Sorry for slapping you back.:)

 

 

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#37 wsnydes

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 06:49 AM

I think you are being a bit too critical of a few sentences given at the end of a postgame interview in response to a specific question about losing Rodney. For all we know, if there had been a follow-up question about the team's poor record through 4 months, Ervin might have acknowledged how the players contributed. That wouldn't really invalidate his previous response, though.

It's still a tough situation. Especially for Ervin, he didn't even get to play until late July -- I wouldn't be surprised if, as a competitor, he imagined his absence contributed to us falling behind Cleveland, and his return could help us catch them. That's probably misguided given his current stuff, but is understandable given the pro athlete's mindset. For better or worse, these guys generally don't get where they are by admitting long odds or dwelling on their failures.

Back to Tom's implications, I don't think Ervin got unprofessional here at all, given the context.

I guess that I don't feel that I'm being all that critical. It's not like I'm destroying him for his comments and I even stated that I didn't really care about what he said. I don't think he was really unprofessional, just missing the point regardless of the question asked. He has a right to be frustrated and nobody likes to see a sell off. Fact of the matter is that they didn't do their job earlier in the season and that is what put them in this position to begin with. Like I said in my first post, I like to see the frustration. It shows they care. But ability to win games based on the pieces presently around him, or the others, is a moot point when they didn't win when the best pieces were here.

Edited by wsnydes, 11 August 2018 - 06:51 AM.

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#38 slash129

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 06:49 AM

Insanity = Doing the same thing over and over again (posting discontent over Gonsalves not getting a look and misguided discontent over Gordon not getting a look) and expecting different results.

The grumpy posts regarding these two are becoming borderline spam.
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#39 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 07:02 AM

NOT disagreeing with you at all!

This team has a nucleus that shouldn't be denied. Just to be accurate, Santana would be 36 next season.

My whole point was, forget age for a moment, what has Santana been most of his career, and what has he been the last 2 years for the Twins? Easy answer, pretty damn good. Is he done? Yeah, maybe he is. But again, lots of variables, we are not talking about a surgery and recovery for TJ or TOR or a hip or knee. Is he worth, maybe, a flier on a 1 year deal with incentives?

Look, Gonsalves should already be up. Romero should be up and getting ready for 2019 as well. Pineda could be a big boost, but could find himself in the pen with May. (Not necessarily a bad thing) Mejia will be with the club as a starter, or in the pen. Thorpe has the potential to be as good or better than Gonsalves or Mejia. But unless we make some BIG FA move or trade move, we have some guys to work with and build around.

Audition Santana for the rest of the season or not. Bring him back on a 1 year flier or not. Isn't it worth considering at least?


I'd be fine with a minor league deal with a May 15th opt out. Not interested at all in a guaranteed mlb spot, no matter how favorable the financial terms are.

It's one thing to learn how to pitch with moxy when you lose your stuff over time. It's completely different to try to figure it out when you lose your stuff overnight.
I opined that Santana's effectiveness was likely over as we knew it when the surgery was announced. That opinion was of course heartily denounced, but I've seen nothing in the months since to change my mind.

#40 TheLeviathan

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 07:05 AM

 

I am fine with him answering the question that way. If I were in that locker room I'd be pissed too. 

 

I'm ok with him being pissed.

 

I guess I would've preferred the team had gotten this upset about their fate back in May.It would've been nice if Dozier hadn't been a hole in the lineup for the entire year.Or if Buxton could stay on the field.Or if Sano could've been better prepared to help.Or if LoMo or Lynn would've justified their signing.I could go on.

 

Being mad at the FO for selling at 48-56?That's just ridiculous.It really is.  

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