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Hello, my name is Byron, (Doc), and I'm a Twins fan. And I'm mad as hell, sorta

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#1 DocBauer

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 10:23 PM

Yes...thats my name, but also how I'm known here. And yes, my tongue is firmly planted in cheek with my title to this piece and borrowing from a famous movie line. [Network: "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!"] About half of you will get the movie reference. As for the rest of you...watch the movie or play along, lol.

I hated losing Dozier. I especially hated losing Escobar! But I get the moves made! If and when you step back and look at things, these were really smart moves made. And at least a couple of the returns will prove that over time, hopefully.

I will state, for the record, that I believe most of the trades and FA moves and roster choices and shuttle runs we have seen from the FO the past 1 3/4 years have been smart and well executed. I even think they had a great draft, followed by a seemingly good one.

For the most part, I am in the corner of the FO. And while I am NOT expecting miracles, or a WS team in 2019, I think we are on the right track overall. And I believe this next off season may be defining for the new FO.

But despite belief and praise thus far, I am frustrated, confused and...can I just say something I've never dared say before...generally pissed off by some recent moves and not made moves.

I can almost accept a poorly constructed Rochester roster. I mean, I guess we were banking on a healthy and talented roster and not wanting to impede mid year promotions. But I think we dropped the ball there. But hey, nobody is perfect.

I can almost defend the Besilse signing. He did great in 2017 after a few bad outings, but, you thought so little of him and your FA signings and depth you let him go. So you sign him now to do what? Mentor young arms? Rodney and Reed and your staff can't do that? You honestly think 31yo Drake has something to fix to make him the next Berenguer or Willis? Man...hats off...you see something nobody else has seen. (Not being a jerk, just being real and honest). Meanwhile, warts or not, you have several live arms with real potential at Rochester that need opportunity, and a challenge. Hildenberger got a real shot, and look how he turned out. In a lost and losing season these other arms don't get/deserve anything other than frequent flyer miles?

I am no expert on Johnny Field, or any value/potential he may hold. I am only a fan GM, and not a real one by any stretch of the imagination. And we need an OF to come up with Wade, Buxton and Granite all on the DL. But Austin can, supposedly, play some OF as well as 1B, was recently acquired, has RH power, some MLB time, and could maybe, possibly, fit in for 2019. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he's one of those good prospects who needed a change of scenery. Who knows unless he gets a chance.

Speaking of chances, what about Romero and Gonsalves? Have to watch Romero's IP to some degree, I get it. And control may be a factor. And you want to see if Santana can rebound for trade value and a cheaper 1 year deal, maybe, for next season. And I have never expected Gonsalves to dominate from the start, but rather, to do what he has done at every level previously: adapt, grow and learn. But we can't find a way through a rolling 6 man rotion and pen outings to get guys experience?

And remind me again how the 8yo younger and much better bat with potential Garver is so much worse than Wilson behind the plate.

I am NOT blasting the FO as again, I think they've done a hell of a job so far, overall, with most of their decisions. But in a lost and disappointing season, I'm starting to think THEY are over-thinking instead of just spending real time looking at and auditioning what they may have available.
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#2 Rigby

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 07:24 AM

Doc,huh? And all this time I thought you were a lord.

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#3 ashburyjohn

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 07:28 AM

Doc,huh? And all this time I thought you were a lord.

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#4 gocgo

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 07:55 AM

Overthinking...yeah, I think that's the perfect word for what the FO has done.

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#5 Doomtints

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 08:09 AM

They didn't overthink it. They thought they had a solid baseline and added pieces to beat Cleveland.

 

They didn't realize -- much like most of you didn't realize -- that last year was a down year for the AL. The Twins were going to need to improve across the board just to finish with the same record as last year. The Twins failed because they became too one-dimensional.

 

This isn't that big of a deal. It doesn't matter that they tried and failed. They will be finishing the year with more assets than they started with and the AL Central will still suck next year.

Edited by Doomtints, 07 August 2018 - 08:09 AM.

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#6 Mike Sixel

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 08:35 AM

Well, they aren't watching Romero's innings. He's pitching full time in AAA. So, it's not about that.

I really don't get the old relief pitcher thing at all. They aren't part off the future, so figure out if the other guys are, or not.

Nothing about this roster says youth movement, it is one of the older rosters around. So I'm not sure who Belisle could be mentoring.

So far, the only good player they have added to the MLB roster is Castro, everyone else is replacement level. Hopefully next year is better.
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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#7 Blackjack

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 08:52 AM

 

Yes...thats my name, but also how I'm known here. And yes, my tongue is firmly planted in cheek with my title to this piece and borrowing from a famous movie line. [Network: "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!"] About half of you will get the movie reference. As for the rest of you...watch the movie or play along, lol.

I hated losing Dozier. I especially hated losing Escobar! But I get the moves made! If and when you step back and look at things, these were really smart moves made. And at least a couple of the returns will prove that over time, hopefully.

I will state, for the record, that I believe most of the trades and FA moves and roster choices and shuttle runs we have seen from the FO the past 1 3/4 years have been smart and well executed. I even think they had a great draft, followed by a seemingly good one.

For the most part, I am in the corner of the FO. And while I am NOT expecting miracles, or a WS team in 2019, I think we are on the right track overall. And I believe this next off season may be defining for the new FO.

But despite belief and praise thus far, I am frustrated, confused and...can I just say something I've never dared say before...generally pissed off by some recent moves and not made moves.

I can almost accept a poorly constructed Rochester roster. I mean, I guess we were banking on a healthy and talented roster and not wanting to impede mid year promotions. But I think we dropped the ball there. But hey, nobody is perfect.

I can almost defend the Besilse signing. He did great in 2017 after a few bad outings, but, you thought so little of him and your FA signings and depth you let him go. So you sign him now to do what? Mentor young arms? Rodney and Reed and your staff can't do that? You honestly think 31yo Drake has something to fix to make him the next Berenguer or Willis? Man...hats off...you see something nobody else has seen. (Not being a jerk, just being real and honest). Meanwhile, warts or not, you have several live arms with real potential at Rochester that need opportunity, and a challenge. Hildenberger got a real shot, and look how he turned out. In a lost and losing season these other arms don't get/deserve anything other than frequent flyer miles?

I am no expert on Johnny Field, or any value/potential he may hold. I am only a fan GM, and not a real one by any stretch of the imagination. And we need an OF to come up with Wade, Buxton and Granite all on the DL. But Austin can, supposedly, play some OF as well as 1B, was recently acquired, has RH power, some MLB time, and could maybe, possibly, fit in for 2019. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he's one of those good prospects who needed a change of scenery. Who knows unless he gets a chance.

Speaking of chances, what about Romero and Gonsalves? Have to watch Romero's IP to some degree, I get it. And control may be a factor. And you want to see if Santana can rebound for trade value and a cheaper 1 year deal, maybe, for next season. And I have never expected Gonsalves to dominate from the start, but rather, to do what he has done at every level previously: adapt, grow and learn. But we can't find a way through a rolling 6 man rotion and pen outings to get guys experience?

And remind me again how the 8yo younger and much better bat with potential Garver is so much worse than Wilson behind the plate.

I am NOT blasting the FO as again, I think they've done a hell of a job so far, overall, with most of their decisions. But in a lost and disappointing season, I'm starting to think THEY are over-thinking instead of just spending real time looking at and auditioning what they may have available.

Curious what you think they should have done differently at Rochester?


#8 ewen21

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 10:38 AM

You have meddled with the primal forces of nature and you will atone!


#9 KirbyDome89

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 11:20 AM

 

They didn't overthink it. They thought they had a solid baseline and added pieces to beat Cleveland.

 

They didn't realize -- much like most of you didn't realize -- that last year was a down year for the AL. The Twins were going to need to improve across the board just to finish with the same record as last year. The Twins failed because they became too one-dimensional.

 

This isn't that big of a deal. It doesn't matter that they tried and failed. They will be finishing the year with more assets than they started with and the AL Central will still suck next year.

They didn't realize that Houston, NY, Boston, and Cleveland were all superior teams coming into the season? They didn't realize that they'd be fighting with LA and Seattle for a WC spot? Their own division is actually worse this year, and that's without including the Twins' miserable performance. They had the path of least resistance to that second WC spot and they pissed it down their leg. They failed because they couldn't capitalize on the weakest division in baseball and easily one of the softest schedules.

 

It's not a big deal that this team might lose 100 games in a season they're supposed to be competing for a playoff spot? They got what they could for expiring contracts + Pressly, and for the most part that's fine, but none of those guys do much for what is currently supposed to be a window of contention. The AL Central sucked this year too, and we saw how that played out. 

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#10 spycake

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 11:38 AM

It's not a big deal that this team might lose 100 games in a season they're supposed to be competing for a playoff spot?


I hope they don't take this as any sort of challenge, but the Twins would need to go 10-41 the rest of the way to reach 100 losses.

I guess the 2011 Twins finished pretty close to that -- they went 10-40 just before winning their last 2 games and narrowly avoiding 100 losses. I know last night is fresh in our minds, but I am not sure if we are that rough of a squad, even after the recent trades.

#11 KirbyDome89

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 11:40 AM

 

I hope they don't take this as any sort of challenge, but the Twins would need to go 10-41 the rest of the way to reach 100 losses.

I guess the 2011 Twins finished pretty close to that -- they went 10-40 just before winning their last 2 games and narrowly avoiding 100 losses. I know last night is fresh in our minds, but I am not sure if we are that rough of a squad, even after the recent trades.

90+ if that makes it more palatable. The point was they shouldn't have been this bad. 


#12 Doomtints

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 12:18 PM

 

90+ if that makes it more palatable. The point was they shouldn't have been this bad. 

 

It wasn't this bad.

 

The Twins traded at the trade deadline. Were you expecting that to not affect them? The record for the rest of the season doesn't matter.


#13 KirbyDome89

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 12:32 PM

 

It wasn't this bad.

 

The Twins traded at the trade deadline. Were you expecting that to not affect them? The record for the rest of the season doesn't matter.

They shouldn't be at the point where they're selling by the deadline. That's the big deal. 

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#14 Doomtints

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 07:17 PM

But before the big deal was 100 losses, then 90 losses?

 

It's hard to figure out how to talk to you when you just throw random stuff out there.


#15 ashburyjohn

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:13 AM

But before the big deal was 100 losses, then 90 losses?

 

It's hard to figure out how to talk to you when you just throw random stuff out there.

Moderator's note: Please stop splitting hairs. The poster's point was that it's a bad season when there was thought of contending when the season started. Losses numbering in the 90s versus the 100s are not the point. Also, conceding 10 losses either way for the sake of discussion doesn't qualify as "random stuff" with an implication of arguing in bad faith. This post amounts to an invitation to bickering, and needs to stop.

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#16 DocBauer

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:02 PM

Curious what you think they should have done differently at Rochester?


Sorry to respond so late, been busy. I actually argued this a bit with Seth a month or so ago. I just don't follow other teams and their rosters and their milb teams the way I used to. So I will respond with a few examples and ideas.

Coming in to the season, pitching wise, the Rochester roster seemed pretty loaded, which I found encouraging. But position player wise, it was very, very lean. There was hope for Wade, Gordon and Granite. And I fully accept and appreciate most teams have a mix of prospects, AAAA guys and fill in pieces.

Opportunity and finances, IMO, lent the Twins to spend some money to acquire at least a few viable pieces to flesh out a decent and useful roster. Especially considering issues such as Sano coming back from injury and off season controversy. What if he wasn't ready? Yes, you had Escobar...and I'm reasonably sure conversation and last performance and love for the organization gives a 50/50 chance to bring him back...bht where was the depth?

Remember Buscher? He could at least play and not embarrass himself. Same for a guy like Jason Tyner. Goodrum would have been an outstanding choice to be brought back for depth! And maybe they tried and he followed Gardenhire and a better opportunity to play in Detroit. Wilson was an OK signing for Rochester if Castro was healthy, but I think about Hicks, also with Detroit now, as a comparable, better signing.

Especially with Granite being hurt, the Rochester OF has been a mess most of the season.

Despite young talent we were banking on, and hoping for, didn't this organization have the FO, scouts, and financial wherewithal to invest in a few more AAAA players, and stuck or "failed" prospects to invest in for depth and fliers? As many comments and jokes have been made about Motter, isn't he the type of flier they should invested in to see if we could find something?

Again, I don't have a list of names. I'm just providing examples. Go back and look at the initial Rochester roster and tell me there was a single position player that made you actually think he could help.

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#17 DocBauer

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:17 PM

I am, as are most of us, hopelessly/hopefully addicted to the Twins. The crux of my post is, at this point, "why Belisle and Drake?" I question certain moves and non moves, but am not bashing the FO. In general I see what they are doing and applaud most moves made, even if I don't like them all. But nearing the end of a frustrating and disappointing season, to be blunt, why in hell aren't we making a conscious effort to audition Gonsalves in a 6 man rotation of need be? Why aren't we taking serious looks at Duffey, again, Busentiz, Bard, Curtiss and Reed in the pen? Was Austin, formerly a decent prospect, just some throw in? Or should we just cut bait on Morrison and take a look?

Not saying I have all the answers, or pretend to know what the FO is debating, but isn't this the perfect time to take looks and begin preparation for the off season and preparing for 2019?

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#18 Sconnie

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 09:31 AM

Sorry to respond so late, been busy. I actually argued this a bit with Seth a month or so ago. I just don't follow other teams and their rosters and their milb teams the way I used to. So I will respond with a few examples and ideas.

Coming in to the season, pitching wise, the Rochester roster seemed pretty loaded, which I found encouraging. But position player wise, it was very, very lean. There was hope for Wade, Gordon and Granite. And I fully accept and appreciate most teams have a mix of prospects, AAAA guys and fill in pieces.

Opportunity and finances, IMO, lent the Twins to spend some money to acquire at least a few viable pieces to flesh out a decent and useful roster. Especially considering issues such as Sano coming back from injury and off season controversy. What if he wasn't ready? Yes, you had Escobar...and I'm reasonably sure conversation and last performance and love for the organization gives a 50/50 chance to bring him back...bht where was the depth?

Remember Buscher? He could at least play and not embarrass himself. Same for a guy like Jason Tyner. Goodrum would have been an outstanding choice to be brought back for depth! And maybe they tried and he followed Gardenhire and a better opportunity to play in Detroit. Wilson was an OK signing for Rochester if Castro was healthy, but I think about Hicks, also with Detroit now, as a comparable, better signing.

Especially with Granite being hurt, the Rochester OF has been a mess most of the season.

Despite young talent we were banking on, and hoping for, didn't this organization have the FO, scouts, and financial wherewithal to invest in a few more AAAA players, and stuck or "failed" prospects to invest in for depth and fliers? As many comments and jokes have been made about Motter, isn't he the type of flier they should invested in to see if we could find something?

Again, I don't have a list of names. I'm just providing examples. Go back and look at the initial Rochester roster and tell me there was a single position player that made you actually think he could help.

For starting pitching you need to be 10 deep at a minimum. I accept that to be truth, and it seems the FO does as well, starting pitching has become at least average where it was 30 and way worse than 29 not long ago.

How deep is deep enough in the outfield? Is it realistic to be 8-9 deep in the outfield? 1 and 4 (Buxton, Granite) were supposed be locks this year, 6 (LaMarre) failed miserably, 7 (Cave) was not even an after thought in February and has pulled through admirably. So yeah, Rochester is a mess but shouldn’t it be? The FO saw it coming and acquired Cave, and promoted Wade.

Corner infield depth improved a bit with the acquisition of Austin, but it will be interesting to see how first is addressed in the offseason for both the Twins and Redwings. Rooker is on the cusp, but you can’t count on that. Maybe Vargas sticks around, but ooofda. Third base with Escobar gone looks to be a significant depth issue, especially since Sano lately does not look as sure as he did previously.

Agreed on Goodrum, wouldn’t he look good in a Twins uni?