60 replies to this topic

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Who else feels the same way? Revere has basically reached his ceiling as a 3 tool player. He isn't as valuable to the Twins as Span is, but could probably fetch something in a trade.

[70charger]

To me I think it comes down to who gets more value back. With the upcoming core of awesome outfielders - Hicks, Arcia, cross-your-fingers Benson, etc., I think all you really need is a stopgap for 2013. Keep either one, I don't care. Just get rid of the one who gets us pitching in return...

[Nick Nelson]

Trust me when I say that there is absolutely zero chance of this happening.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I guess I like Denard more than Ben. I also feel that Span's end of the season injury should play a role in keeping him.

[sorney]

I like Span as much as the next guy, and would take him over Revere, but there is no way it makes any sense to trade a cheap alternative to Span, when they need to re-tool an entire pitching staff. Span will fetch them move in a trade then Revere

[TK10]

I respectfully disagree. I think it's Span who's reached his ceiling. Span is who he is. I think Revere, as he learns to work counts, draw walks and bunt, has a chance to become an elite leadoff hitter. It's not a slam dunk, but he has a chance. Span doesn't. Span isn't an engaging personality either, which with this current team, I think matters. Revere has a chance to become a leader in the club house and a bridge builder with casual fans. I can also see Revere relating to children in a way nobody has since Puckett. There's just something about the guy, in my opinion. I sort of see Revere as a Torii Hunter kind of personality minus the occasional outbursts of anger and selfishness.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I respectfully disagree. I think it's Span who's reached his ceiling. Span is who he is. I think Revere, as he learns to work counts, draw walks and bunt, has a chance to become an elite leadoff hitter. It's not a slam dunk, but he has a chance. Span doesn't. Span isn't an engaging personality either, which with this current team, I think matters. Revere has a chance to become a leader in the club house and a bridge builder with casual fans. I can also see Revere relating to children in a way nobody has since Puckett. There's just something about the guy, in my opinion. I sort of see Revere as a Torii Hunter kind of personality minus the occasional outbursts of anger and selfishness.

He has zero power. Not even close to Torii Hunter. I see him as a Juan Pierre comp. and a really good 4th Outfielder. Span has been a better player this season and probably would fetch more. I just see Revere is a block to Hicks and Arcia for some reason as well since all three are young.

[ericchri]

Trade both. One this offseason and one at next year's deadline. Hicks just profiles as a more complete player than either of those two if he continues to live up to his potential, such that I think he makes a better CF than either. Leave the corners for the guys who can flat-out hit (Willingham, Arcia). Hicks looks to be a better base-stealer with more pop than Span, more plate discipline and a better arm than Revere. Not really inferior in anything to either of them. Again, assuming he continues the play he finally showed this year. Of course he's still only played at AA, so he could flame out, but then we just wait for Buxton while filling in with Benson/Mastroianni.

[Twins Twerp]

Revere is a much better hitter (for average) than Span. Revere has better baserunning skills and covers more ground than Span. Revere is solid. I would also agree that Span's value is much lower than Revere. Revere's lack of arm strength is super overblown. Span's injury put the cabosh on getting traded. Now look for Mornie and/or the Hammer to get moved this offseason.

[Winston Smith]

I respectfully disagree. I think it's Span who's reached his ceiling. Span is who he is. I think Revere, as he learns to work counts, draw walks and bunt, has a chance to become an elite leadoff hitter. It's not a slam dunk, but he has a chance. Span doesn't. Span isn't an engaging personality either, which with this current team, I think matters. Revere has a chance to become a leader in the club house and a bridge builder with casual fans. I can also see Revere relating to children in a way nobody has since Puckett. There's just something about the guy, in my opinion. I sort of see Revere as a Torii Hunter kind of personality minus the occasional outbursts of anger and selfishness.

He has zero power. Not even close to Torii Hunter. I see him as a Juan Pierre comp. and a really good 4th Outfielder. Span has been a better player this season and probably would fetch more. I just see Revere is a block to Hicks and Arcia for some reason as well since all three are young.

He was talking about "personality" not power or hitting numbers.

[TK10]

Sorry, I meant in terms of personality he reminds me of Hunter. Revere and Hunter are obviously radically different players. I'm bothered by how injury prone Span is, too. If Mauer had missed time because he was scared of the MRI machine Twins Territory would have gone ballistic.

[JP3700]

While I do agree it's unrealistic to trade Revere instead of Span, I do think some people are highly undervaluing Denard's play and overvaluing Ben's.

Denard is the prototypical lead off hitter. He has always been good at getting on base, but more importantly he always sees a lot of pitches while knowing how to foul off pitches if need be. This creates longer innings for pitchers and allows other batters to see what the pitcher is doing. To me, the offense looks completely different when Span is leading off compared to Revere. Span also has good gap to gap power, which Revere obviously has none of. Span was on pace for over 40 doubles and over 50 extra base hits.

Ben will max out at 30 extra base hits on a good year and gets a large amount of hits on bloop/infield hits which aren't as effective with runners on base. Revere will never magically be able to draw more walks and if he does draw a couple more walks his BA will drop to even it out. There is a reason why Revere hits .241 as a lead off hitter and .318 as the number 2 hitter, it's a different animal. Lead off hitters are taught to have a different approach which Span clearly has down. When you ask Revere to take that approach it's like taking the venom away from a snake. Revere is naturally an aggressive hitter. I agree that Revere does bring more speed, has slightly better range and brings a fun personality but Span is by far an overall better player.

[wavedog]

Agreed - Span is a better hitter. Revere is a better fielder and baserunner. This next statement contradicts what I said about his fielding but with his limited arm strength can we teach Revere to play 2nd base?

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

I find it pretty amusing that personality is even relevant to this discussion... Maybe if denard smiled more he'd get some respect around here.

[Shane Wahl]

By the beginning of 2014 hopefully both will have been traded (Benson, Hicks, Arcia)

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

While I do agree it's unrealistic to trade Revere instead of Span, I do think some people are highly undervaluing Denard's play and overvaluing Ben's.

Denard is the prototypical lead off hitter. He has always been good at getting on base, but more importantly he always sees a lot of pitches while knowing how to foul off pitches if need be. This creates longer innings for pitchers and allows other batters to see what the pitcher is doing. To me, the offense looks completely different when Span is leading off compared to Revere. Span also has good gap to gap power, which Revere obviously has none of. Span was on pace for over 40 doubles and over 50 extra base hits.

Ben will max out at 30 extra base hits on a good year and gets a large amount of hits on bloop/infield hits which aren't as effective with runners on base. Revere will never magically be able to draw more walks and if he does draw a couple more walks his BA will drop to even it out. There is a reason why Revere hits .241 as a lead off hitter and .318 as the number 2 hitter, it's a different animal. Lead off hitters are taught to have a different approach which Span clearly has down. When you ask Revere to take that approach it's like taking the venom away from a snake. Revere is naturally an aggressive hitter. I agree that Revere does bring more speed, has slightly better range and brings a fun personality but Span is by far an overall better player.

Well put. Revere is not a lead off hitter. He's definitely shown more talent than i expected him to, but that still doesn't erase the fact that he can't lead off. The Twins would be lacking a leadoff hitter for the future if they got rid of span. Who anywhere in this organization has a leadoff skill set? I don't see it outside of Span. Some people want to de-emphasize the impact of lineup position on production, but in the case of hitting leadoff, there is a specific skill set that you need to have to succeed at the top of a lineup.

[Twins Twerp]

Such as getting caught leaning off of 1st base 20 times a season ala span?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Who anywhere in this organization has a leadoff skill set?

Aaron Hicks.

[SydneyTwinsFan]

Ben ....... gets a large amount of hits on bloop/infield hits which aren't as effective with runners on base

Doesn't this suggest he would be more effective leading off?

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

Who anywhere in this organization has a leadoff skill set?

Aaron Hicks.

Definitely overlooked Hicks. He has actually come along pretty nicely now that I checked his stats this year in AA. His MLB ETA would coincide pretty nicely with the end of Denard's contract. Still don't understand the rush to trade this guy unless a legitimate piece to the future is offered. Trading him for a B or lower prospect just doesn't make sense to me.

[JP3700]

Ben ....... gets a large amount of hits on bloop/infield hits which aren't as effective with runners on base

Doesn't this suggest he would be more effective leading off?

No, because it's not a sustainable way to get on base. He'll always run into slumps which trickles down the line up. Also, there will be situations where the lead off hitter needs to come through with runners on.

Let me ask, if it's the 9th inning 2 outs with a runner on second who would you rather see at the plate? Denard or Ben? Needing a bunt to move a runner over, who would you rather see at the plate? To lead off an inning in a 1 run game, who would you rather see at the plate? I can't think of situations where Denard isn't a more ideal hitter. As I mentioned I think they should trade Denard cause he has much more value but the slight difference between speed and defensive range does not make up the gap in ability at the plate. I like Revere, I'm rooting for him to be successful, but I have always thought he has the ceiling of Juan Pierre offensively and is a 4th OF on a winning team. I do agree that Aaron Hicks is the future, I love his upside.

[Rosterman]

Okay, this year Revere is a better #2 hitter...well, isn't Mauer always batting third. You see some better pitches. As a lead-off guy, they come at him right out of the gate. He has to improve what he looks at tremendously to hold down the lead-off position. Span, you pretty much know what you've got...except that he has now broken down for the second year. Wouldn't you feel better right now having Span sitting on someone else's bench and a solid pitcher in our rotation? Span had more worth during the trade deadline.In the off-season, he is just another player competing against a slew of free agent outfielders and other trade bait. Now you have to ask the worth of Revere as a trading chip compared to Span. And WiIllingham will still be the guy everyone wants.

[Top Gun]

Trade any Ofer you can for front line SP.

[jimbo92107]

Disagree. Trade Span for pitching, keep Revere as lead off. Slap hitter, but he bats .300+, better OPS, excellent base stealer, fast as hell, great glove, and now an adequate, accurate arm. Plus, kids love him.

Meanwhile, you've got a bunch of good-looking prospects bubbling up through the minors. In the top tier you've got Hicks, Arcia, Benson, Dinkelman, Ramirez, Morales, Ortiz, Rams, Ray...and of course Buxton and Max Kepler on the E-Twins. Friends, the Twins system is loaded with outfielders. Unless those guys can throw curve balls for strikes, some of them will wind up traded for pitching.

All that talent coming up makes Denard Span available for trade. In fact, it practically demands a trade, especially with the Twins going through a penny pinching era.

[JP3700]

Okay, this year Revere is a better #2 hitter...well, isn't Mauer always batting third. You see some better pitches. As a lead-off guy, they come at him right out of the gate. He has to improve what he looks at tremendously to hold down the lead-off position. Span, you pretty much know what you've got...except that he has now broken down for the second year.

So with your theory, Span would be a .350+ hitter with Mauer hitting behind him . You're right about knowing what we have with Span, a .360 OBP lead off hitter that can hit for 40+ doubles, steal 20 bases and play a good center field. And on him "breaking down", he hurt himself hustling for an extra base and making a spectacular catch for his team, he didn't mysteriously break down. He has flaws, mainly his baserunning but people don't point out the times where Ben fails to get a bunt down to move a runner over at crucial times in games. I just don't understand why people are so down on him, he's been a great player for us, and will be a great player for another team, probably next year.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Sorry, I meant in terms of personality he reminds me of Hunter. Revere and Hunter are obviously radically different players. I'm bothered by how injury prone Span is, too. If Mauer had missed time because he was scared of the MRI machine Twins Territory would have gone ballistic.

Actually my fault. My mind blanked at that part I guess.

[TK10]

I certainly wouldn't argue that personality trumps talent but I do think it matters. This is a team badly in need of some exuberance and leadership. You have a lot of really good guys on this roster but those same guys are very low key and quiet.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

In terms of personality, I really like Span's competitive edge and he is possibly the 'nicest' guy on the team. Revere is just too happy go lucky. Revere's defense is a little overrated. He only has a .6 dWar. Ben doesn't even eclipse a .700 OPS.

[TK10]

I know Span doesn't make a ton of money but what if TR says to himself: "I can put Revere in center and not lose much and then if I flip Morneau and Span $20 million comes off the books and I can make a sincere run at Greinke." Would you essentially trade Morneau and Span for Greinke? I'm not a great sabermetrics mind (my two-year old probably gets sabermetrics better than I do) but I think at first blush I'd make that trade.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

I know Span doesn't make a ton of money but what if TR says to himself: "I can put Revere in center and not lose much and then if I flip Morneau and Span $20 million comes off the books and I can make a sincere run at Greinke." Would you essentially trade Morneau and Span for Greinke? I'm not a great sabermetrics mind (my two-year old probably gets sabermetrics better than I do) but I think at first blush I'd make that trade.

The more I've thought about it, the less I like Grienke.

#1. His numbers are no longer elite. An ERA a little under 4 and a little under a K per inning is elite compared to this squad... but relative to the money and years a 28 year old pitcher who has been in the majors since 2004... I don't like that risk.

#2. If he signs with the Twins it means we overpaid. By a mile.

#3 Why would he want to sign here? It makes little sense for a pitcher who will write his own ticket in free agency to pick a team that lost 90+games 2 years running... Hell if he signed here I think it would be a sign that he has no competitive spirit... and would rather just stay out of big pressure games.

The Twins need to make a serious run at fixing this rotation... but I don't think it should be Grienke.