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Article: The Rise and Fall of Miguel Sano

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#81 laloesch

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 12:39 PM

 

In my 52 years on this Earth I have been in and out of shape. When I was in shape I looked like I was in shape. Why? Because I put in the work with diet and exercise.
When I was out of shape I looked like I was out of shape. Why? Because I got lazy in the area of diet and exercise and I in every case I readily admitted it to anyone when I got on the topic.

 

I am sure there are a lot of people like me here who have been through this and understand that forgetting about conditioning and diet affects how we feel, our appearance and what we are capable of doing physically (in Sano's case it probably affects his swing mechanics, attitude and overall ability). If this calls into question his character then so be it.He has five to six months of offseason and he is a 25 year old professional athlete.IN this day and age you have to keep up with your peers, many of whom work out and get in amazing shape during the offseason.

This is a fixable thing.He can change.,

 

YES.And it is much much easier to get in shape and stay in shape in your early 20's.I'm not an old dog by any means at 38 but i have already noticed how much harder it is to get in shape.This year i quit smoking, picked up jogging again and are going to join a gym soon to put some muscle back on that i've lost through the years.He (miguel) can do this if he wants to.


#82 ewen21

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 04:06 PM

 

Nothing at all. But that's not what was being said. What was being said was he needed to stop feeding at the buffet trough and he needed to stop being lazy and he needed to stop just expecting things to happen. Those types of character issues questions are out of bounds, because those are all speculative and disrespectful and, frankly, not helpful in finding solutions. But saying needs to refocus and figure it out and be in better condition ... absolutely. And that's what he's in Fort Myers to do. Maybe there are other issues at hand with his level of discipline, both in diet and workouts, that do feed into what he needs to change (no pun intended with the word 'feed') ... but I think those can be addressed without outright being disrespectful by saying things that I mentioned above without painting the most negative picture of his personal character.

When it comes to weight some people are blunt about it with themselves.I know that I am when I am carrying like 10 or 15 pounds and I know other people who are the same way.The comments some people directed at Sano are things I heard many people (myself included) say about themselves.I don't see that as assailing one's character.Good people can have bad habits.Lord knows I have a few and I am VERY honest about them with myself and I will rip myself about these things to make sure I'm on the straight and narrow.I don't have coaches, five months and change of free time and an endless amount of resources like Sano does.

 

He did a horrible job this offseason and you would hope he learns something from this

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#83 ewen21

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 04:19 PM

 

You don't know any of this.This is the kind of post about Sano that really bothers me.Buxton too.

 

You know nothing about them as young men, what they think, what they care about, and how they work.Criticizing them as people like that is quite reprehensible IMO.

Holy overreaction.To say we know nothing about them, what they care about and how they work doesn't compute with me.HE didn't care enough to rip down in an offseason where he needed to because of the microfracture surgery.This is idea that we "know nothing" about what he did, cares about or how he works makes zero sense.It is pretty simple to draw conclusions about people if we are talking about fitness.If he were working hard and doing what he was supposed to do he would not be down in Florida conditioning his body DURING the season.He allowed this to get this way all by himself.That doesn't happen unless you go completely off the reservation for five months.Period.End of story.

 

You and others seem to think people can discern nothing from hours, days, weeks, months and years of observation. You will remember right away there were questions about his weight and physical condition once he arrived in camp by the Twins and the media. Then we saw him and it was pretty clear he put on some weight after microfracture surgery on his shin.
What does that say about his preparation? If ever there was a season for him to rip down and ease the load on those legs it was this season and he was ill prepared (to say the least)
People want to say it is "mechanics" yet don't realize/accept/fathom that his physical conditioning (or lack of it) affects execution. It is so simple it is silly. 5 X 5 = 25 and that will always be, just as out of shape athletes are going to have a variety of problems 10 times out 10.At 25 years old he has a lot to learn with what it takes during the five or six months of off season that he has.

 

 

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#84 SQUIRREL

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 04:30 PM

 

When it comes to weight some people are blunt about it with themselves.I know that I am when I am carrying like 10 or 15 pounds and I know other people who are the same way.The comments some people directed at Sano are things I heard many people (myself included) say about themselves.I don't see that as assailing one's character.Good people can have bad habits.Lord knows I have a few and I am VERY honest about them with myself and I will rip myself about these things to make sure I'm on the straight and narrow.I don't have coaches, five months and change of free time and an endless amount of resources like Sano does.

 

He did a horrible job this offseason and you would hope he learns something from this

I don't disagree Sano has a lot to work on and figure out in several areas of his professional and personal life. And I have no issues with people taking certain stances in regards to what they think Sano needs to work on, including weight. I was willing to give him some time and a benefit of a doubt for a while because he's young and let's face it ... we all figure out the maturity thing in our own time ... and some never do. I've also seen him at ST for every year he's been there and at some minor league games along the way, too. He has always been larger than anyone else, even at times when he's looked quite solid. That said, we don't know what time and energies he has committed himself to in regards to his weight, or anything else for that matter. I don't think it's fair, respectable or funny to assume the worst and come out with the trough feeding/fatty/buffet/lazy/poor ethics comments based on what we see alone when we have no idea, really, what's going on. Of course we can draw conclusions and theorize and have opinions ... on either side of this debate. I, myself, took the path of giving him some leeway but that leeway is very short at present based on a lot of press over time and lack of production this season. But in our theories and opinions, if we can't present our takes respectfully ... and I'm not pointing at you when I say this, but everyone ... if we can't present it respectfully, it's not going to fly, here. And if we can't accept that while one might strongly believe in what one thinks, another might believe just as strongly in something else. I've often given the advice ... you aren't right or wrong here at TD. No one is. We are expressing what we think is or should be; there is no right or wrong in that, and there is no 'winning' the debate. There is, however, civility and respect in any issues any of us might bump heads about. Me disagreeing with you about Sano isn't 'push back,' it's me having a different opinion. We can go 'round and 'round and never meet in the middle, and that's okay. But at some point, agreeing to disagree is likely the best path. But name calling, dragging someone's character down, mean-spirited comments ... those should be avoided.

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#85 ewen21

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 04:42 PM

My problem with this whole debate is the constant berating people get from those who believe nothing can be discerned about one's physical fitness through observation.This refrain I keep seeing.... "you don't know because you weren't there watching him" or "you can't say things about his character" is getting very annoying.

 

I am saying nothing about his character unless you assume that anyone who is 30 to 40 pounds overweight has character issues.I do not make that assumption and I am not making an assumption or going after his character if I say he is out of shape and should have done a better job.People who noticed this early shouldn't be on the defensive and I feel anyone who has been critical of his conditioning HAS BEEN put on the defensive for a perception that his "character" is being attacked.

 

With that I am walking away from this unless someone wants to quote me or PM me.

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#86 Mike Sixel

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 04:44 PM

 

My problem with this whole debate is the constant berating people get from those who believe nothing can be discerned about one's physical fitness through observation.This refrain I keep seeing.... "you don't know because you weren't there watching him" or "you can't say things about his character" is getting very annoying.

 

I am saying nothing about his character unless you assume that anyone who is 30 to 40 pounds overweight has character issues.I do not make that assumption and I am not making an assumption or going after his character if I say he is out of shape and should have done a better job.People who noticed this early shouldn't be on the defensive and I feel anyone who has been critical of his conditioning HAS BEEN put on the defensive for a perception that his "character" is being attacked.

 

With that I am walking away from this unless someone wants to quote me or PM me.

 

people have used phrases like lazy and doesn't care....among other things. I think that's the part that some of us push back on. 

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#87 ewen21

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 04:52 PM

 

people have used phrases like lazy and doesn't care....among other things. I think that's the part that some of us push back on. 

I defended Sano long enough.He is the one responsible for where he is right now with regard to conditioning.He was irresponsible in that area this winter.I don't where anyone can dispute that.If people want to call that lazy I don't understand what the problem is.I fell out of shape in my life and it was because I got lazy.He is a professional athlete and has all the resources you and I could ever want at his fingertips for months on end.He also had microfracture surgery on his shin.

 

 

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#88 SQUIRREL

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 05:01 PM

My problem with this whole debate is the constant berating people get from those who believe nothing can be discerned about one's physical fitness through observation. This refrain I keep seeing.... "you don't know because you weren't there watching him" or "you can't say things about his character" is getting very annoying.

I am saying nothing about his character unless you assume that anyone who is 30 to 40 pounds overweight has character issues. I do not make that assumption and I am not making an assumption or going after his character if I say he is out of shape and should have done a better job. People who noticed this early shouldn't be on the defensive and I feel anyone who has been critical of his conditioning HAS BEEN put on the defensive for a perception that his "character" is being attacked.

With that I am walking away from this unless someone wants to quote me or PM me.

I think you are taking this too personally when I was speaking generally. I wasn’t saying specifically that your arguments are disrespectful or you would have had a PM about it. I was talking of posters who jump to the assumptions I stated.
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#89 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 07:34 AM

 

My problem with this whole debate is the constant berating people get from those who believe nothing can be discerned about one's physical fitness through observation.This refrain I keep seeing.... "you don't know because you weren't there watching him" or "you can't say things about his character" is getting very annoying.

 

I am saying nothing about his character unless you assume that anyone who is 30 to 40 pounds overweight has character issues.I do not make that assumption and I am not making an assumption or going after his character if I say he is out of shape and should have done a better job.People who noticed this early shouldn't be on the defensive and I feel anyone who has been critical of his conditioning HAS BEEN put on the defensive for a perception that his "character" is being attacked.

 

With that I am walking away from this unless someone wants to quote me or PM me.

My problem with this (and as a moderator as well though this not necessarily directed at you) is that people are making way too many assumptions about his character with way too little evidence to back them up and then proceed with a character assassination.

 

I think we can all agree that there's a maturity issue here, though to what extent is completely unknown. Obviously his weight is high, but I don't think that means he isn't conditioning himself at all (whether he's doing it properly is a different issue, and I'm fairly certain he's got a genetic component here too... remember he was always huge for his age, so much so that it was doubted during his IFA period).I'd also note, that plenty of overweight sluggers did just fine in MLB, and a few are in the HOF. His weight affects his defense much more than his offense in my humble opinion. 

 

To conclude however, that he's lazy, lines up at the buffet table, doesn't care, etc. (to quote a few lines I've read in this thread), is well out of line. Don't confuse results with intention. People can and do try and fail, and they also may not be trying hard enough. 

 

So please, let's frame in this in a more reasonable way. I'm hoping that whatever maturity issue is in play will result in some growing up in A ball on a minor leaguer's salary. At 24, that might work. 

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#90 Jerr

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 08:36 AM

Well, there obviously is some problem/concern on the Twins part or Sano would not have been sent down to Class A ball. Twins know far more than anyone on here. I hope he finds whatever is missing, that has held back his success. 

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#91 ewen21

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 12:12 PM

 

My problem with this (and as a moderator as well though this not necessarily directed at you) is that people are making way too many assumptions about his character 

 

 

I don't see it that way at all.Not at all.He came into camp and there were rumblings from the Twins in the media right away before most of us even saw him. When most saw him it caused a reaction.No one had seen the guy for almost five months and he put on bad weight after having microfracture surgery on his shin.He had nothing else to do over a five month period but to eat properly and train effectively.He failed miserably in that department because whatever he did he didn't do nearly enough.YOu want to talk about maturity?I don't want to hear it.Take a look at other young star players in the game, guys even younger than Miguel, and you will see a great many of them commit themselves to being in the best possible condition they can be.Sano isn't an EMT, a police officer, a school teacher or whatever.He is a professional athlete and it is HIS JOB to be sure stuff like this doesn't happen.He didn't do what his employer needed him to do.SImple as that.The sad part is he could have done virtually nothing for three months and then whipped himself into shape over the last six weeks of the off season.I have done body transformations while I working a full time job, I have seen others with all sorts of physical limitations do the same.THis guy has five months of free time and he comes back needing time to condition himself?That was the Twins judgment and they are much closer to the situation than anyone else.  

 

I keep reading people are drawing conclusions they cannot draw due to lack of information.Well, apparently the Twins are concerned about his conditioning to where he is in A ball to get his body conditioned.If that doesn't tell us all something I don't know what will.  

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#92 TheLeviathan

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 05:51 PM

He didn't do what his employer needed him to do.SImple as that.

 

 

Perhaps if the arguments sounded more like this....you'd be seeing less push back.

 

Instead it's "He didn't do what his employer needed him too because he clearly didn't care about it" 

 

When that last part is added on, that's when you've ventured into much murkier water. Basically from fair criticism to wild speculation.The Twins are concerned, but what their specific concerns are have been kept pretty quiet.Which is how it should be so they avoid giving more fodder to people who want to attack Sano.

 

Last year Sano was an All-Star. He overcame Tommy John surgery ahead of schedule.He overcame the death of a child and played baseball through it.He excelled playing through the minors.If he "didn't care" and was "lazy" - he'd have never made it to the expectations wehold him to.Perhaps you should consider all those factors as well when you are making assumptions about his character because of his struggles.


#93 Thrylos

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 07:02 PM

 

 

I've also seen him at ST for every year he's been there and at some minor league games along the way, too. He has always been larger than anyone else, even at times when he's looked quite solid.

 

I still remember him looking like this (Vargas to the left) :

 

vargas-sano.jpg

 

Edited by Thrylos, 29 June 2018 - 07:03 PM.

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#94 Doomtints

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 07:15 PM

Molitor has been down on him for years. The Me Too situation he created for himself certainly didn't help things. We don't know what the conversations were on that topic between him and management (and the MLB) but we know they weren't good (and we know the conversations went on for a long time).

 

Throw in surgery and a new bionic leg that he can't push off on or run well on anymore, and what have you got?

 

There is little reason to keep him around at this point. He will either bust the rest of the way or he will get a fresh start somewhere else. The Twins may as well try to get something out of it.

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#95 ewen21

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 06:15 AM

 

 

 

Last year Sano was an All-Star. He overcame Tommy John surgery ahead of schedule.He overcame the death of a child and played baseball through it.He excelled playing through the minors.If he "didn't care" and was "lazy" - he'd have never made it to the expectations wehold him to.Perhaps you should consider all those factors as well when you are making assumptions about his character because of his struggles.

Maybe you need to consider that the answer is actually more obvious than you want to think.It gets silly when people try to over complicate something simple.You want me to be more sensitive?I am quite aware of the circumstances Sano has encountered over his career and it all started with Pelotero Ballplayer (which I have seen about ten times).I don't think I could be more sympathetic to toward this player than I have already been dating back to the day he was drafted.I think the Twins were doing a terrible job with Latin players during the Gardy and Ryan years and when Sano got suspended in New Britain for that home run trot I was furious.I defended him like a pit bull and slammed the Twins for their insane overreaction.Before the year started there was plenty of discussion about Sano and I defended him again.I even expressed a lack of concern about his weight because I though he was strong enough.I no longer feel this way because we have hit a tipping point.I can no longer defend him.

 

Seems as though you are accusing me of not thinking this through and you couldn't be further from the truth.I have explored a variety excuses in my mind trying to give him the benefit of the doubt for quite some time now and I cannot do that in this scenario because it is as simple as 1-2-3.Make whatever excuse you want to make for him, but in the five months of off season that he had he went significantly backward and the excuses are just not good enough, sorry.I understand his daughter died, but that was four years ago.He played through that back in AA with aplomb, but that was then and this is now.Are we to assume that there was some exceptional event that prevented him from eating properly and working out to a level that would achieve a reasonable level of fitness?Seems as though you want me to operate under that assumption. Sorry, not gonna operate under an assumption

 

Everyone goes through times in their life where they need to do some soul searching and Miguel is there on his own volition.For a professional athlete to let themselves go the way he has is unacceptable.I defended him when a teammate made comments about him being a "ticking time bomb".I went off on Plouffe and May for weighing in on the #metoo incident.This is different.This is simple and cut and dried.Over the off season he let himself go and it isn't up to me to come up with the WHY.I have read people insist that it is genetic or his real problem has to do with mechanics (while the connection to his physical state and its affect on them gets treated like an afterthought).All of these excuses attempt to take the emphasis away from the fact that he was irresponsible and he let his team down (and himself down).

 

Time for him to act like an adult.Have fun on the ballfield and style all you want when you hit a HR.Wear the dreads long and the doo-rag.Wear war paint if you want, I honestly don't care.But when it comes to doing your job and personal responsibility cut it out with the excuses.I don't want to hear the excuses anymore.This isn't rocket science.He has five months every off season to work on his body.If he had a reasonable diet plan (not that hard!) and worked out an hour and a half a day six days a week (also not hard given that is his only baseball responsibility) he would be a lot better off.Don't give me excuses because you weren't there either. It isn't like you know exactly what impeded him from doing what he needed to do.He has more control of this situation than what you suggest.  

 

I have been in his corner until now.Not this time.This is one area where a player can put his stamp on his career.He has all the talent in the world and what is he doing with it?Not much by the looks.

 

The great thing is that this is fixable.If he comes back next year in excellent shape and a renewed spirit people will get in his corner again.  

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#96 Ncgo4

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 06:59 AM

I very highly doubt there are any HOF ball players who weighed 300 lbs at 24 years of age. I also doubt a minor league salary will motivate a change in his behavior with the $ millions he has already made.

#97 TheLeviathan

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 07:23 AM

 

 

 Over the off season he let himself go and it isn't up to me to come up with the WHY. 

 

Except you are fuming about pushback when there is a "why" suggested.People are saying he is lazy and just doesn't care.That is a "why" answer.  

 

People struggle with weight for many reasons, I doubt you'd go down the street pointing at every overweight person and concluding "lazy!"...."doesn't care!"We can be critical and hold him to account without attacking his character.The phrasing is simple:

 

"We need Sano to be less lazy and care about helping us"

 

vs.

 

"We need Sano to address what is holding him back so he can help the team"

 

The former is a personal attack.The latter is totally fair.


#98 Major League Ready

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 07:29 AM

 

people have used phrases like lazy and doesn't care....among other things. I think that's the part that some of us push back on. 

Mike, any professional has job demands that require preparation. When a non-athlete professional does not bother to prepare when ample time has been provided, the people accountable for the the organization are going to conclude that their level of commitment is not adequate. In this case, the demand is to eat healthy and exercise. Compared to what many of us need to do in preparation this is a absolute walk in the park and he had 5 months to do it. 

 

If there are medical reasons Sano that make it difficult to drop the weight that's a different issue but it's seems a very reasonable assumption the media would have reported it. So, what reasons other than he did not care enough to get in shape are reasonable alternatives?

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#99 ewen21

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 08:46 AM

 

Except you are fuming about pushback when there is a "why" suggested.People are saying he is lazy and just doesn't care.That is a "why" answer.  

 

People struggle with weight for many reasons, I doubt you'd go down the street pointing at every overweight person and concluding "lazy!"...."doesn't care!"We can be critical and hold him to account without attacking his character.The phrasing is simple:

 

"We need Sano to be less lazy and care about helping us"

 

vs.

 

"We need Sano to address what is holding him back so he can help the team"

 

The former is a personal attack.The latter is totally fair.

Who cares?

 

That is what you think and feel.

 

Mike, any professional has job demands that require preparation. When a non-athlete professional does not bother to prepare when ample time has been provided, the people accountable for the the organization are going to conclude that their level of commitment is not adequate. In this case, the demand is to eat healthy and exercise. Compared to what many of us need to do in preparation this is a absolute walk in the park and he had 5 months to do it. 

 

If there are medical reasons Sano that make it difficult to drop the weight that's a different issue but it's seems a very reasonable assumption the media would have reported it. So, what reasons other than he did not care enough to get in shape are reasonable alternatives?

That is what I am saying.If anyone thinks it is an assumption that he didn't work hard enough because he didn't care enough they are going to have to give me something concrete as to what else could have impeded him, otherwise they are making assumptions themselves.

 

This is simple stuff.People don't fall into a situation like Miguel is in without being neglectful, irresponsible and far to sedentary.This idea that "you really don't know what he was doing" is ridiculous to me.I know when he came into camp the Twins and the media remarked immediately on his appearance.I know I reserved judgment until I saw him because there have been criticisms about his weight before and I did not think it was a big problem.That changed when I saw him this year for the first time.This is a guy that had microfracture surgery and for him to gain weight rather than rip down (not asking much, 10 or 15 pounds) is a terrible job by him.

 

 

 

 


#100 Sconnie

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 08:51 AM

Maybe you need to consider that the answer is actually more obvious than you want to think. It gets silly when people try to over complicate something simple. You want me to be more sensitive? I am quite aware of the circumstances Sano has encountered over his career and it all started with Pelotero Ballplayer (which I have seen about ten times). I don't think I could be more sympathetic to toward this player than I have already been dating back to the day he was drafted. I think the Twins were doing a terrible job with Latin players during the Gardy and Ryan years and when Sano got suspended in New Britain for that home run trot I was furious. I defended him like a pit bull and slammed the Twins for their insane overreaction. Before the year started there was plenty of discussion about Sano and I defended him again. I even expressed a lack of concern about his weight because I though he was strong enough. I no longer feel this way because we have hit a tipping point. I can no longer defend him.

Seems as though you are accusing me of not thinking this through and you couldn't be further from the truth. I have explored a variety excuses in my mind trying to give him the benefit of the doubt for quite some time now and I cannot do that in this scenario because it is as simple as 1-2-3. Make whatever excuse you want to make for him, but in the five months of off season that he had he went significantly backward and the excuses are just not good enough, sorry. I understand his daughter died, but that was four years ago. He played through that back in AA with aplomb, but that was then and this is now. Are we to assume that there was some exceptional event that prevented him from eating properly and working out to a level that would achieve a reasonable level of fitness? Seems as though you want me to operate under that assumption. Sorry, not gonna operate under an assumption

Everyone goes through times in their life where they need to do some soul searching and Miguel is there on his own volition. For a professional athlete to let themselves go the way he has is unacceptable. I defended him when a teammate made comments about him being a "ticking time bomb". I went off on Plouffe and May for weighing in on the #metoo incident. This is different. This is simple and cut and dried. Over the off season he let himself go and it isn't up to me to come up with the WHY. I have read people insist that it is genetic or his real problem has to do with mechanics (while the connection to his physical state and its affect on them gets treated like an afterthought). All of these excuses attempt to take the emphasis away from the fact that he was irresponsible and he let his team down (and himself down).

Time for him to act like an adult. Have fun on the ballfield and style all you want when you hit a HR. Wear the dreads long and the doo-rag. Wear war paint if you want, I honestly don't care. But when it comes to doing your job and personal responsibility cut it out with the excuses. I don't want to hear the excuses anymore. This isn't rocket science. He has five months every off season to work on his body. If he had a reasonable diet plan (not that hard!) and worked out an hour and a half a day six days a week (also not hard given that is his only baseball responsibility) he would be a lot better off. Don't give me excuses because you weren't there either. It isn't like you know exactly what impeded him from doing what he needed to do. He has more control of this situation than what you suggest.

I have been in his corner until now. Not this time. This is one area where a player can put his stamp on his career. He has all the talent in the world and what is he doing with it? Not much by the looks.

The great thing is that this is fixable. If he comes back next year in excellent shape and a renewed spirit people will get in his corner again.


I think you are on to something here.

http://m.startribune...gers/485595781/

I characterize Sano going to A+ ball as a resset. I imagine the conversation with Sano to have been “Look Miguel, you are extremely important to the organization and I’m not sure where things got off course, but we need to correct course. We can get you the best support in Ft Myers so you can get your strength in your legs back and your swing mechanics back in alignment”

Falvey describes it as a reset, and I think it’s a reset from how Sano was managed by the old regime to how he will be managed going forward.

I’m still in Sano’s corner despite my feelings about the offseason allegations. My hope for this young man is that 2017-2018 is a period that he can learn and grow from, and come out on the backside a better person and better player.

It’s really difficult to make that kind of transformation without support and personal conviction. I think Sano has the personal conviction part. No one gets to the MLB without it. It appears that the support part from the Twins is changing and I think (hope) for the better.
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