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Article: The Rise and Fall of Miguel Sano

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#61 Thrylos

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 05:14 PM

Too much drama regarding the performance of a 25 year old in 37 games of an injury plagued season and , esp. since Golden Boy hit .234/.271/.332, .265 wOBA, 63 wRC+ in his age 25 season (much worse than Sano, FWIW)

 

Same with Buxton btw.

 

Too.Much.Drama.And way too often regarding Sano.Seems that there is a weekly let's ditch Sano article regurgitating the same things, as if Sano were all that is wrong with the Twins right now.

 

Certain people must be auditioning to be the next Souhan or Reusse...

Edited by Thrylos, 27 June 2018 - 05:17 PM.

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#62 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 06:06 PM

Too much drama regarding the performance of a 25 year old in 37 games of an injury plagued season and , esp. since Golden Boy hit .234/.271/.332, .265 wOBA, 63 wRC+ in his age 25 season (much worse than Sano, FWIW)

Same with Buxton btw.

Too.Much.Drama. And way too often regarding Sano. Seems that there is a weekly let's ditch Sano article regurgitating the same things, as if Sano were all that is wrong with the Twins right now.

Certain people must be auditioning to be the next Souhan or Reusse...


Where did the article suggest ditching Sano?

#63 yarnivek1972

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 06:37 PM

Too much drama regarding the performance of a 25 year old in 37 games of an injury plagued season and , esp. since Golden Boy hit .234/.271/.332, .265 wOBA, 63 wRC+ in his age 25 season (much worse than Sano, FWIW)

Same with Buxton btw.

Too.Much.Drama. And way too often regarding Sano. Seems that there is a weekly let's ditch Sano article regurgitating the same things, as if Sano were all that is wrong with the Twins right now.

Certain people must be auditioning to be the next Souhan or Reusse...


Are you suggesting that his success or failure isn’t directly tied to the success or failure of the franchise as a whole? Perhaps the reason so much is written about him is because he is THAT important to this franchise.

#64 Thrylos

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 07:02 PM

 

Are you suggesting that his success or failure isn’t directly tied to the success or failure of the franchise as a whole? Perhaps the reason so much is written about him is because he is THAT important to this franchise.

 

Sure, but a lot of young players are THAT important to this franchise, because a single top player never made a team a winner.Ask Mike Trout, if you don't believe me.  

 

Matter of fact, Byron Buxton sucks more that Sano this season, and has been throughout his career, while rated as the top prospect in baseball by most of the pundits out there, unlike Sano.

 

How come there is no biweekly venom against Buxton around here?

 

As some point, one has to think that it might be personal and malicious, esp. in the light of events that happened the last off-season (allegedly) involving Sano and certain people's friends...

 

 

Edited by Thrylos, 27 June 2018 - 07:06 PM.

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#65 LeatherAntenna

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 07:47 PM

If only we had just Sano to worry about, but their is a guy on the opposite side of the bathroom scales who is flailing away in AAA when we need him running the bases in MLB and he looks lost with a positive attitude.And after those two get fixed we have a German in the outfield who is slipping down to below replacement batting when we anticipated another rising star.And then we have our oldest star showing a valient, but seemingly futile effort to combat concussions, our young star short stop taking a PED vacation, and our slugging 2B waiting for his half year magic to kick in.  
 
That is a lot to deal with - not even moving into Belisle, Pressly and the BP.

of all the posts in this thread this one sums it up best. I still believe in Kep, he looks in shape, is intense, and I believe that he figures it out. As to the rest and upcoming years, well, as in “Games of Thrones”, prepare for winter.

#66 LeatherAntenna

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 07:59 PM

I wouldn't say Kepler is regressing, although I agree he's not getting better. His OPS+, wRC+, and WAR are virtually identical to what he produced in 2016-2017. He's thoroughly an average performer for the 3rd consecutive season, which is helping the MLB team a bit but not a lot. (The shape of his offense has changed a smidge this year -- walk rate up, K rate down, BABIP down -- but not enough to be particularly encouraging.)

Isn’t his batting against left handed pitching still much improved this year and makes his 2018 year more perplexing?
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#67 USAFChief

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:05 PM

Too much drama regarding the performance of a 25 year old in 37 games of an injury plagued season and , esp. since Golden Boy hit .234/.271/.332, .265 wOBA, 63 wRC+ in his age 25 season (much worse than Sano, FWIW)

Same with Buxton btw.

Too.Much.Drama. And way too often regarding Sano. Seems that there is a weekly let's ditch Sano article regurgitating the same things, as if Sano were all that is wrong with the Twins right now.

Certain people must be auditioning to be the next Souhan or Reusse...


Too much drama??

He's in A ball, ferpetesakes. Not solely for baseball reasons.

Maybe it's time some people apologize to Reusse and Souhan.
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#68 LeatherAntenna

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:05 PM

THere was a lot of blowback about "questioning his character" when people made the observation that Sano was out of shape a few months ago.Can that please stop?YOu don't get out of shape working hard and being a go-getter.I wasn't watching him this winter, but I will bet he lived a little too high on the hog this past winter and who can blame him?He grew up with nothing and now he's enjoying the spoils of a life in the major leagues.At least half of this is on the Twins.
 
Remember when he got suspended for the home run trot back when he was in New Britain?I always thought it was more about other things than him taking his time rounding the bases after a home run.The Twins went out of their way to make a point to him for "not respecting the game" as an indirect way to send a message to him about other areas of his game.Heaven forbid they call him out for his work ethic, or lack of a decent one. 
 
What is wrong with saying the kid needs to refocus and work harder?What is wrong with telling the kid that he lost his way?I was in my early 20s once and I needed some people to get in my face in order to keep me on the path.No shame in that.

He grew up in life and now he is enjoying the spoils of life? (And apparently no obvious discipline) OK, others are always not wired that way but assuming that is something that you give him then it is also acceptable for fans to criticize him. Those sadly, are our spoils.
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#69 alarp33

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:15 PM

 

Sure, but a lot of young players are THAT important to this franchise, because a single top player never made a team a winner.Ask Mike Trout, if you don't believe me.  

 

Matter of fact, Byron Buxton sucks more that Sano this season, and has been throughout his career, while rated as the top prospect in baseball by most of the pundits out there, unlike Sano.

 

How come there is no biweekly venom against Buxton around here?

 

As some point, one has to think that it might be personal and malicious, esp. in the light of events that happened the last off-season (allegedly) involving Sano and certain people's friends...

 

June 27 2017 - June 27 2018

 

Miguel Sano.226/.294/.425

 

Byron Buxton.262/.307/.435

 

Which one of those 2 has a value solely tied to his bat?

 

If you need more. fWAR since start of 2016. 

 

Miguel Sano3.3

Byron Buxton 4.6

 

So when you say matter of factly Sano has constantly outperformed Buxton, when exactly are you talking about? The 80 games Sano had 3 years ago?

Edited by alarp33, 27 June 2018 - 08:18 PM.

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#70 Thrylos

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:22 PM

 

Too much drama??

He's in A ball, ferpetesakes. Not solely for baseball reasons.

Maybe it's time some people apologize to Reusse and Souhan.

 

He is at the Twins' Spring Training home where he can take care of his lack of conditioning because of the immobility his surgery caused last off-season,while playing baseball and getting his timing back in a non-pressure situation and his mechanics corrected after the adjustments he had to make because of his early season injury.

 

That's my no drama take.

 

Let the haters hate.Not the first black latino that was not liked in Minny.

 

Stuff happens.Crucifying your best player when it happens is inane.Not that different than Mauer's concussion and its aftermath.Other than the race and nationality part (and the $ Mauer was paid.)

 

Period.

Edited by Thrylos, 27 June 2018 - 08:26 PM.

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#71 Thrylos

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:34 PM

 

 


So when you say matter of factly Sano has constantly outperformed Buxton, when exactly are you talking about? The 80 games Sano had 3 years ago?

 

Career MLB:

 

Sano: .248/.339/.485, 121 OPS+, .351 wOBA, 119 wRC+
 

Buxton: .230/.285/.387, 81 OPS+, .289 wOBA, 76 wRC+

 

just that

Edited by Thrylos, 27 June 2018 - 08:34 PM.

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#72 USAFChief

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:35 PM

He is at the Twins' Spring Training home where he can take care of his lack of conditioning because of the immobility his surgery caused last off-season,while playing baseball and getting his timing back in a non-pressure situation and his mechanics corrected after the adjustments he had to make because of his early season injury.
 
That's my no drama take.
 
Let the haters hate.Not the first black latino that was not liked in Minny.
 
Stuff happens.Crucifying your best player when it happens is inane.Not that different than Mauer's concussion and its aftermath.Other than the race and nationality part (and the $ Mauer was paid.)
 
Period.


1. He’s not the Twins best player. Calling him that is...inane. He may some day be, I hope so.

2. This thread isn’t about Dozier, or Buxton, or Mauer.

3. And you know what else it isn’t about? It’s not about race, or color, or ethnicity. Nobody has said snything about that, or implied any such thing, until you just did. And in doing so, you are implying that other posters are racists.

That’s not fair, and it’s not allowed here at TD. This is for you and all posters: cease and desist with these kinds of unfounded allegations.
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#73 alarp33

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:57 PM

Career MLB:

Sano: .248/.339/.485, 121 OPS+, .351 wOBA, 119 wRC+

Buxton: .230/.285/.387, 81 OPS+, .289 wOBA, 76 wRC+

just that

Oh ok so when you said he’s been better this year and every year of his career you just meant he has overall offensive numbers that are superior. I agree, from 2015 to today Sano has been a better offensive player.

Unfortunately for the Twins the Sano of 2015 and other brief periods, hasn’t been seen in over a year. And he has a negative defensive and base running value

*2015 is the only year he’s been more valuable than Buxton by WAR. I’d recommend using that stat because baseball is also played in the field and on the bases

Edited by alarp33, 27 June 2018 - 09:02 PM.

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#74 Nick Nelson

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 09:37 PM

 

Too much drama regarding the performance of a 25 year old in 37 games of an injury plagued season and , esp. since Golden Boy hit .234/.271/.332, .265 wOBA, 63 wRC+ in his age 25 season (much worse than Sano, FWIW)

 

Same with Buxton btw.

 

Too.Much.Drama.And way too often regarding Sano.Seems that there is a weekly let's ditch Sano article regurgitating the same things, as if Sano were all that is wrong with the Twins right now.

 

Certain people must be auditioning to be the next Souhan or Reusse...

Hey, if you don't like it, you're welcome to not read, and certainly welcome to not comment! 

Your whole shtick forever has been calling for managers/coaches/front office types of be fired. You grind your axes against players that you don't like ad nauseam. We all know this. And you're whining about "too much drama"? Who do you think you're kidding?

 

If you wanna actually tell me what specifically is unfair about this article, instead of making ridiculous exaggerations about how I'm "crucifying" Sano, or being "malicious," or suggesting the team should get rid of him, then go for it.

 

But if that's all you've got, drop it. I'm really tired of hearing it.  

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#75 alarp33

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 09:52 PM

 

Hey, if you don't like it, you're welcome to not read, and certainly welcome to not comment! 

Your whole shtick forever has been calling for managers/coaches/front office types of be fired. You grind your axes against players that you don't like ad nauseam. We all know this. And you're whining about "too much drama"? Who do you think you're kidding?

 

If you wanna actually tell me what specifically is unfair about this article, instead of making ridiculous exaggerations about how I'm "crucifying" Sano, or being "malicious," or suggesting the team should get rid of him, then go for it.

 

But if that's all you've got, drop it. I'm really tired of hearing it.  

 

"too much drama after 37 games"

 

- same poster who suggested cutting ties with Buxton late July last year in favor of Zach Granite

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#76 DocBauer

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 10:01 PM

First, angst can be dangerous. Opinions are great, but calm down folks.

Second, and to the point, the problem with Sano, and Buxton since he's been brought in to this discussion, is clearly between the ears, IMO. And that is no insult, or a shot at either guy. BOTH are EXTREMELY talented with God-given ability and potential that most people, even high end baseball athletes, can only envy.

Both flew through the system, as you would expect and hope for two such talented players. Buxton missed some time due to injuries, but performed so well, he was quickly promoted. Everything has come so easy for both of them, I have to wonder at times, if they truly honed all the knowledge they could before they hit the Show.

This is all still my opinion, but I think it's an intelligent one watching both of them. Buxton cares so much, wants to do well so badly, that I think he's unsure of himself and pressing. At some point last season, he relaxed and his given ability took over. He got off to a rough start, which he has before and is not unprecedented in other players, then had the migraines then the toe injury, then trying to play through it, no wonder he's a bit of a mess right now.

I have made excuses for Sano previously, and will again. He is a large, muscle bound young man who wears his weight well. He doesn't field his position poorly, charges balls very well, and bas a cannon for an arm that is almost always accurate. I won't pretend to be an expert physical therapist, or a shrink, but his surgery and recovery and controversy in the off season has to have weighed on him.

That being said, what happens NOW? It's up to him. Eventually, for healthy and mobility, he absolutely needs to get in better shape. Even a large, muscular DH/1B has to have some flexibility and endurance to swing the bat and endure a full 162 game season much less play 3B. He also needs to recognise ML pitchers are there for a reason. They make adjustments. Will He? And will he accept this demotion as the opportunity that it is?

Not sure how Kepler got brought in to this whole discussion, but I will address a few things regarding him as well. Who believes his signing as a teenager playing ball in Germany was in any way the equivalent of being a top HS prospect selected in the draft? Who remembers he barely played at AAA before making his ML debut? Who has watched him in the field, or at the plate, and seen the natural athleticism and quick hands with a smooth stroke? I LOVE Rosario and was on his bandwagon years ago. But when it comes to just pure ability and potential, I think Kepler is second to only Buxton. Why the hell he can suddenly only hit LHP is like a Leoarnd Nimoy "in search of" episode from the 80's. But this kid has mad potential. And I still feel he's, learning on the job, as he has been the last couple of seasons. Is he better served with a trip to AAA? I don't know. Who do you replace him with?

IMO, Buxton will be OK when he learns to relax. At this point, I'm OK with a month of AAA. Kepler will be fine once he figures a few things out. We have a whole half season to play folks!

The question is Sano. Will he embrace this "re-set" as a punishment? Or as an opportunity to be healthy, get in shape, work at recognizing counts and pitches, and move forward?
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#77 yarnivek1972

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 10:10 PM

You lost me at “doesn’t field his position poorly”.

Second worst in the league.

That’s poor.
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#78 curt1965

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 11:29 PM

What Doc said!
With regard to Sano’s fielding, I use my eyesight sometimes when evaluating players, and although his “stats” might say his fielding is poor, I say he can make all the plays, is fairly mobile for a big guy, and hasn’t hurt the team with his play defensively. Can’t remember any games his play there resulted in Twins’ losses.
The bigger point, and what I’ve said in the past, is that Sano and Buxton are still very young. Their biggest fault was being labeled “ can’t miss” and “superstars of the future.” Expectations can be a bitch, and unfortunately their problems and lack of production has left the team with very little talent offensively. Rosario and Escobar have carried this team for the past month, and it is unrealistic to assume they can continue that play until Sano and Buxton return.
I can’t produce the actual statistics, but I remember Hunter, Cuddyer, Morneau, and recently Dozier make return trips to the minors when they had problems. Unfortunately, Buxton, Sano, and Kepler needed to play immediately, and now when they need to return to Rochester/Fort Meyers, there is a precipitous drop off in talent. Twins fans better get used to the losing in 2018.
This subject is obviously very emotional for us posters, and I think I know a possible reason. Where Buxton and Kepler are outwardly disappointed with their play, Sano’s weight issues and lack of perceived attention to detail and perceived lack of interest rub us the wrong way.
My hope is that both of the future stars are not rushed back to the show, and that they only return when they are ready. This year is toast, but let’s get everyone ready for next year, find out who we can and cannot count on, and hope that the front office figures out the roster construction much better next year.
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#79 yarnivek1972

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 04:13 AM

The problem with “using your eyes” is that they are often misleading. The reason you don’t recall Sano’s play at third costing the Twins games is because he’s only played 25 games there. The reason the Twins have lost most of their games this year has typically been because of their offense and occasional bullpen blow ups. Doesn’t mean Sano isn’t a terrible defender.

I for one don’t care about how Sano “rubs” people, his weight or his motivation. I care about results on the field. His were not good in 2016. They were inconsistent, though better, in 2017. They are downright abysmal this year. He is at the stage of his career where he should be showing improvement from year to year. He’s going completely the other way. That’s a problem.
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#80 the_brute_squad

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 05:08 AM

Weight is the biggest concern. It's tough to fix a swing when you've got 40 extra pounds around the mid-section. The balance is off, the swing is adjusted because of the extra girth, and you're bound to lose bat speed. Combine that with a lack of confidence after swinging and missing because of that and you start to press and hit everything over the left field fence. Lose the weight and the rest will be fixed.

Of course there's the chance he stays at 290.. at which point he's another "what coulda been".

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