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Article: MIN 6, BOS 2: Bats Get to Boston Bullpen

jose berrios eduardo escobar trevor hildenberger ryan lamarre
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#41 bighat

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 08:52 AM

 

I think the last MVP on a sub .500 team was A-Rod with the Rangers like 10-15 years ago. The voters tend to give the award to guys on contending teams. Speaking of which, the Indians have a pretty good third baseman as well.

 

Not sure anybody's gonna catch Mike Trout.


#42 Jaykay

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 09:48 AM

 

Not sure anybody's gonna catch Mike Trout.

 

Trout is having a historic season, he should win by a landslide. 

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#43 jkcarew

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 09:54 AM

 

Then again, Mike Trout should be looking for his 6th MVP but only has two so maybe Escobar has a shot:

 

• 2012 he had 3.4 more WAR than Cabrera with equivalent stats while playing a premier defensive position and leading the league in stolen bases. As a rookie.
• 2013 he had 1.7 more WAR than Cabrera with equivalent stats and again, better defense and base running.
• 2015 was closer but he had 0.9 more WAR than Donaldson, played a better position, hit the same number of home runs with more stolen bases. This is probably the closest but I’d still give it to him.

I'd go with Trout "could" be looking for his 6th...not "should" be.When you go down that path, you'd need to re-calibrate the award for a whole bunch of seasons in the award's history.The award is named the most Valuable Player...and, historically, the value has been weighted to creating runs leading to wins in a meaningful season for the club.Never in it's history has the award been considered to be the equivalent ofa 'Best player' or MoP award.Trout is not the first victim or even the best example (see Ted Williams, 1947...then look at Ted Williams 1941 or Ted Williams 1942).Although Trout might end up being the most frequent example before he's done.

 

If the award was MoP, then we could debate using WAR exclusively to determine the best player :) 


#44 RatherBeGolfing

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:27 AM

 

If Escobar keeps up his play at even 80% of his current play....there's no reason he shouldn't win the MVP. Even if they don't make the playoffs. Pitching has kept us in more games than not and Escobar along with Rosario have kept the offense rolling seemingly by themselves for most of the year. Pretty crazy.

PST

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#45 Dantes929

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:28 AM

 

I'd go with Trout "could" be looking for his 6th...not "should" be.When you go down that path, you'd need to re-calibrate the award for a whole bunch of seasons in the award's history.The award is named the most Valuable Player...and, historically, the value has been weighted to creating runs leading to wins in a meaningful season for the club.Never in it's history has the award been considered to be the equivalent ofa 'Best player' or MoP award.Trout is not the first victim or even the best example (see Ted Williams, 1947...then look at Ted Williams 1941 or Ted Williams 1942).Although Trout might end up being the most frequent example before he's done.

 

If the award was MoP, then we could debate using WAR exclusively to determine the best player :)

I agree with Jack Kemp though in that putting weight on winning teams for MVP and then using MVP for HOF consideration is ridiculous.Much like the Cy Youngvoting which might keep Santana out of the Hall.  

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#46 puckstopper1

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:29 AM

 

If Escobar keeps up his play at even 80% of his current play....there's no reason he shouldn't win the MVP. Even if they don't make the playoffs. Pitching has kept us in more games than not and Escobar along with Rosario have kept the offense rolling seemingly by themselves for most of the year. Pretty crazy.

 

I'm wondering if you mean MVP of the Twins or the AL?Certainly not in the AL-especially with the year Trout is having.  

 

I'd potentially argue against MVP of the Twins with the year Rosario is having.

 

Bottom line the "Ed's" are the hottest Twins duo since the M&M boys.

That Twins 2nd baseman - #29 - he doesn't run, he "ca-rew-zes" - Earl Weaver


#47 Dantes929

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:30 AM

 

So fun to see the posts in a win.Berrios, Escobar, Rosario are the stories for the first half of the year. Lets hope there are more stories in the second half. 

Agreed but lets not forget Gibson who has a better ERA than Berrios and also Rodney. I will be the first to admit hating that signing but he has been really good after a so so start.  

Funny that Escobar is giving us what we wanted out of Sano but if Sano had been giving us what we wanted then Escobar might never have been given the chances.

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#48 spycake

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:38 AM

 

I'd go with Trout "could" be looking for his 6th...not "should" be.When you go down that path, you'd need to re-calibrate the award for a whole bunch of seasons in the award's history.The award is named the most Valuable Player...and, historically, the value has been weighted to creating runs leading to wins in a meaningful season for the club.Never in it's history has the award been considered to be the equivalent ofa 'Best player' or MoP award.  

Andre Dawson, 1987? Robin Yount, 1989? Larry Walker, 1997? Alex Rodriguez, 2003? Giancarlo Stanton, 2017?

 

It's certainly not common for an MVP to come from an also-ran team -- but then again, great players are usually on pretty good teams. The two things are kind of related.

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#49 spycake

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:40 AM

 

I'm wondering if you mean MVP of the Twins or the AL?

The "even if they don't make the playoffs" qualifier seems to indicate league MVP, rather than team.


#50 Mike Sixel

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 10:45 AM

If only the twins could play the best teams in the AL more often, other than the Yankees. Though I'm sure I have that wrong in my head, and they aren't playing better against the good teams!

I remain hopeful on Buxton and Sano.....but I'd not bet the franchise on them.


#51 jkcarew

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 11:00 AM

 

I agree with Jack Kemp though in that putting weight on winning teams for MVP and then using MVP for HOF consideration is ridiculous.Much like the Cy Youngvoting which might keep Santana out of the Hall.  

Winning will always play a part in evaluating a players career in Baseball...and in Football....and in Basketball, etc., etc.Does it make for some 'unfortunate' outcomes?Yes.But it's better than the alternative where winning isn't considered at all.It's the object of their games, and what all are supposed to be playing for.


#52 Dantes929

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 11:56 AM

 

Winning will always play a part in evaluating a players career in Baseball...and in Football....and in Basketball, etc., etc.Does it make for some 'unfortunate' outcomes?Yes.But it's better than the alternative where winning isn't considered at all.It's the object of their games, and what all are supposed to be playing for.

Well, yeah but you still need to consider within the team concept. Santana wins all his games but the team finishes last he is still the best pitcher and deserves the Cy Young because he won all the games he was able to. How can you say Cy Young goes to the best pitcher but then say 3/4s of all pitchers don't qualify because their team didn't make the playoffs?Mike Trout can be the most valuable player in the league even if his value was on a team that lost a lot of games.You start by saying if there is one player you can have on your team who would you choose. Then you can say whose season that was just played would you like repeated on your team out of all those that played. If both of those answers are Mike Trout then you have your Most Valuable Player. The second part of that question ld eliminate his 2017 season for injury.  

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#53 jkcarew

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 12:38 PM

 

Well, yeah but you still need to consider within the team concept. Santana wins all his games but the team finishes last he is still the best pitcher and deserves the Cy Young because he won all the games he was able to. How can you say Cy Young goes to the best pitcher but then say 3/4s of all pitchers don't qualify because their team didn't make the playoffs?Mike Trout can be the most valuable player in the league even if his value was on a team that lost a lot of games.You start by saying if there is one player you can have on your team who would you choose. Then you can say whose season that was just played would you like repeated on your team out of all those that played. If both of those answers are Mike Trout then you have your Most Valuable Player. The second part of that question ld eliminate his 2017 season for injury.  

We could start a separate thread on this.Which I won't.I think it's great when the award goes to the best player.I'm just saying that that has never been the overriding criteria, and I'm also saying that I have no problem when what you've accomplished with your team weighs in.I have other, non-team sports to look to where the best always gets all the awards, like track, tennis, and golf.Just an opinion.(Also, missing out on Cy Youngs is just one ofSantana's problems with his HoF case.)  


#54 Circus Boy

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 01:07 PM

 

Extending Escobar now is the literal definition of buying high.

I've bought a few things high. Mostly Fritos.

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#55 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 01:22 PM

Motter showed a strong arm in right. Joe wearing his baggy shirt on that second HBP was huge.

#56 h2oface

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 03:52 PM

The official scoring that lets a pitcher get the win after blowing the save..... never have liked it. Especially if the pitcher that blows the lead did it all with his own batters, and no inherited runners. Way to go Duke. I guess relief is not spelled D-U-K-E! 

 

I still like to see pitchers get wins, regardless of how sabr statisticians like to say wins are meaningless. 

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#57 ThejacKmp

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 04:26 PM

 

I'd go with Trout "could" be looking for his 6th...not "should" be.When you go down that path, you'd need to re-calibrate the award for a whole bunch of seasons in the award's history.The award is named the most Valuable Player...and, historically, the value has been weighted to creating runs leading to wins in a meaningful season for the club.Never in it's history has the award been considered to be the equivalent ofa 'Best player' or MoP award.Trout is not the first victim or even the best example (see Ted Williams, 1947...then look at Ted Williams 1941 or Ted Williams 1942).Although Trout might end up being the most frequent example before he's done.

 

If the award was MoP, then we could debate using WAR exclusively to determine the best player :)

 

I get your point but in so many of those it's not close to me. I get using team success to figure out close ones but Trout is 30% more valuable by WAR in some of those years. They eye test also matches it - I bet all of those writers would say Trout for best positional player in those years. They just have some ridiculous criteria that makes it "best player on good team". That makes more sense in basketball where a player can really influence a game but less in baseball where so many guys need to do their job to get a win.

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#58 jimmer

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Posted 23 June 2018 - 11:35 AM

If Escobar keeps up his play at even 80% of his current play....there's no reason he shouldn't win the MVP. Even if they don't make the playoffs. Pitching has kept us in more games than not and Escobar along with Rosario have kept the offense rolling seemingly by themselves for most of the year. Pretty crazy.

you mean team MVP, right? Cause Trout is absolutely killing it this season. Truly destroying it.

Edited by jimmer, 23 June 2018 - 11:37 AM.




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