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Pitchers Hitting

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#1 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:39 PM

Regardless of where you stand, it’s a good read:

https://www.theringe...her-hitting-dh#
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#2 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 10:53 AM

It's a great read. Lindbergh has become one of my favorite writers.

But it's not an unbiased read. He is very much pro-DH. Lindbergh claims to come at this issue from the point of view of "the fan" while only grudgingly acknowledging that NL fans prefer the rules they play under, and he doesn't acknowledge at all that fans like me actually enjoy pitcher duels, and don't mind that easy out at the bottom of the order.
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#3 Mike Sixel

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 12:06 PM

I'm guessing casual fans would rather not watch pitchers hit.... But I've never done a poll

I remain hopeful on Buxton and Sano.....but I'd not bet the franchise on them.


#4 mickeymental

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 04:58 PM

maybe lindbergh has the problem backwards: stop coddling pitchers by taking the bat out of their hands as youngsters. let them learn to hit. i used to love when jim kaat, jim grant, etc., came up to bat for the twins. for every dean chance there's a dave boswell. as it should be.

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#5 TheLeviathan

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:38 PM

Injuries like the ones to Tanaka will lead to universal DH.It's inevitable now that interleague play is so common.

 

Also, from my perspective, the pro-pitchers batting side has always sounded like that parent we've all heard.(And maybe we've all been)You know the one.Where they sit down with you at dinner with their kid and they tell you "My kid is a good eater!" and then you watch them make airplanes out of spoons, douse everything in ketchup, bribe with cookies, forcibly shove food in their face, and perform any variety of other magic tricks to get their kid to eat.

 

The reality is - kids are generally terrible eaters.

 

I feel that way about "good baseball" when I hear NL fans talk about all the "strategy" that pitchers batting creates.It's a lot like all those tricks to help the "good eaters".Your kid ain't a good eater, you've just become so accustomed to all your shenanigans you forgot what good eating looks like.Ditto NL baseball. It's basically one big, nonsensical delusion.

 

Your kids aren't good eaters.And "good baseball" doesn't need guys with a .200 OPS hitting all the time.  

Edited by TheLeviathan, 09 June 2018 - 05:40 PM.

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#6 Mike Sixel

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:05 PM

maybe lindbergh has the problem backwards: stop coddling pitchers by taking the bat out of their hands as youngsters. let them learn to hit. i used to love when jim kaat, jim grant, etc., came up to bat for the twins. for every dean chance there's a dave boswell. as it should be.


Coddling? Ugh. There is no right and wrong here, just preference.

I remain hopeful on Buxton and Sano.....but I'd not bet the franchise on them.


#7 mickeymental

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 01:30 AM

 

Coddling? Ugh. There is no right and wrong here, just preference.

coddling. like shaq with a designated free-throw shooter. (coddle: treat in an indulgent or overprotective way. "I was coddled and cosseted"; synonyms: pamper, cosset, mollycoddle.) disadvantage the team with dean chance (.183 ops, 0 hr, 16 rbi, 420 k in 759 pa), not madison bumgarner (.552 ops, 17 hr, 54 rbi, 196 k in 559 pa). also, why let beanball artists hide behind the dh? make 'em all bat!

 

"no right and wrong here, just preference" ... isn't that true regarding most things at twins daily?


#8 TheLeviathan

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 06:27 AM

It's not coddling, it's just understanding most athletes are either born with major league pitching talent or hitting talent.

I never hear how we coddle the other 8 positions by not forcing them to pitch an inning. We wouldn't do that because It'd be rightly called a farce. So is this.
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#9 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 08:40 AM

I'm guessing casual fans would rather not watch pitchers hit.... But I've never done a poll

There was a poll in the article he linked. You might have skimmed past it.

#10 mickeymental

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 10:21 AM

 

It's not coddling, it's just understanding most athletes are either born with major league pitching talent or hitting talent.

I never hear how we coddle the other 8 positions by not forcing them to pitch an inning. We wouldn't do that because It'd be rightly called a farce. So is this.

then why stop with pitchers? major-league fielding talent at catcher, shortstop and centerfield can also be considered something some athletes are born with -- but it doesn't necessarily mean they can hit major-league pitching. so why not add a dh for bobby wilson, ehire adrianza, byron buxton and any other spot in the order where the hitter is slumping or simply not very good? why not just have separate lineups for hitters and fielders with only the best "two-way" players doing both? ("forcing" wilson, adrianza and buxton to pitch is, in my opinion, off topic.)

 

of course, it's also my belief that there is no right and wrong here. just preference.

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#11 Shaitan

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 10:47 AM

 

Injuries like the ones to Tanaka will lead to universal DH.It's inevitable now that interleague play is so common.

 

While that's logical, I've heard it before, like when Wang was hurt a decade ago. The change still hasn't happened.

 

Personally, I'd love to end interleague play. It would reduce this issue and get rid of the division-heavy schedule imbalance. But I don't write the rules.


#12 jkcarew

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 10:50 AM

Every league in the universe uses DH except NL...to even debate this at this point is kind of ‘throw back’.

It’s not a matter of coddling, not even a matter of skill. It’s a matter of specialization...by a certain time, hitters are spending all their practice time hitting and fielding...and pitchers are working on their arm, their mechanics, and pick-off moves, etc. Why include in the game something as rediculously non-competitive as the pitcher hitting (ex rare exceptions) when there is an alternative.

We’ll see the DH go away right around the same time the NFL decides fans want to watch punters and kickers play running back and safety.

#13 mickeymental

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 10:56 AM

 

Every league in the universe uses DH except NL...to even debate this at this point is kind of ‘throw back’.

In American high schools and other amateur baseball leagues that use National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) rules, a DH may bat in place of one player in any position, not just a pitcher. Many coaches use a designated hitter in place of the weakest hitter in the lineup, if they use one at all.


#14 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 11:17 AM

We’ll see the DH go away right around the same time the NFL decides fans want to watch punters and kickers play running back and safety.

We're not talking about the AL doing away with the DH here.

Football punters and kickers are specialists, but occasionally they are forced to throw a block or make a tackle.
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#15 TheLeviathan

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 11:18 AM

 

In American high schools and other amateur baseball leagues that use National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) rules, a DH may bat in place of one player in any position, not just a pitcher. Many coaches use a designated hitter in place of the weakest hitter in the lineup, if they use one at all.

 

That's a good point, often at a younger age the pitchers are still hitting.And I'd be ok with a similar rule being put into place in MLB.  

 

Baseball and football are rather comparable on this issue because there are clear transition points from offense to defense.I look at forcing pitchers to bat a lot like if the NFL forced one of the defensive players to punt or the QB to kick field goals.I doubt any football fans would find that to be a good idea.By the time you've reached an elite level of play, you've had to hone a specialized part of your craft to get there.Even when pitchers were regularly hitting they were still awful hitters and that trend has only gotten worse.

 

I think the main flaw in the argument is the idea that pitching = defense.In that people argue if you're playing defense you should also be required to hit, but I see defense and pitching as very different things.I don't require everyone playing defense to pitch, but somehow everyone playing "defense" (in this other meaning) has to hit.I just find the logic applied selectively in order to justify tradition and that is the core of this issue - a fallacious appeal to tradition.

Edited by TheLeviathan, 10 June 2018 - 11:19 AM.

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#16 jkcarew

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 11:42 AM

We're not talking about the AL doing away with the DH here.
Football punters and kickers are specialists, but occasionally they are forced to throw a block or make a tackle.


About as often as pitchers bat in the AL.

NL fans don’t like watching pitchers hit, any more than they’d like to watch Sabatian Janakoski carry the football...but, they’re programmed to say they do. It’s a badge of honor at this point to the NL...they know the numbers...and they’re not getting better. They’ll change only when/if they perceive it to be a material disadvantage in the WS.

#17 ashburyjohn

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 12:23 PM

The tangent about positions other than pitcher will deserve discussion about getting a DH when it becomes a perceived problem.

 

The DH for pitchers wasn't an anomaly thrust upon the game in the 1970s out of nowhere. The idea for a DH dates back to at least the 1930s. That was back when men were still men and pitchers were expected to be complete ballplayers like everyone else. Except.... they weren't. It was well accepted that major league pitchers would be terrible hitters, with few exceptions, and because their role was so important the manager would just live with that. When all managers put the best-throwing pitchers into the lineup, with no regard to their hitting ability, the die was cast. It was already an unbalanced position within the game. The DH just made it official, four decades later, and corrected a perceived problem with lack of offense in games.

 

If and when managers universally put in weak-hitting catchers as their starters, and no amount of differential between a good-hitting catcher will win him a spot, then another DH could be considered. Ditto for shortstops, or any other position on the field. Until such time, it's a bit of a strawman to bring up. There's no slippery slope.

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#18 TheLeviathan

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 12:28 PM

We think of catchers or shortstops as weak offensive positions and they carry a 300-400 point advantage on pitchers. Often even more.

I don't think the author's points about futility can be overstated. Those stats are ridiculous.

Edited by TheLeviathan, 10 June 2018 - 12:28 PM.

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#19 Shaitan

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 01:10 PM

I think taking the DH out of the minor leagues would go a long way toward improving pitchers' hitting capabilities at the pro level. Players should be improving their fundamentals in the minor leagues. All of them.


#20 TheLeviathan

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 01:14 PM

 

I think taking the DH out of the minor leagues would go a long way toward improving pitchers' hitting capabilities at the pro level. Players should be improving their fundamentals in the minor leagues. All of them.

 

In the article it lists evidence to show that while your stance is true, the "improvement" is still minimal.It's merely less putrid.

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