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Berardino: Concussion Symptoms Return for Mauer

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#41 Sconnie

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 06:19 AM

Maija Varda has a really good blog post re: Joe’s health

https://www.twinkiet...esota-twins-mlb

#42 ewen21

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 07:43 AM

 

I won't wade into this any further, but you've stated this several times without any qualifiers for Mauer's opinion on the matter. Thus, I think the characterizations of your position by other posters, that Mauer's opunion is irrelevant to your position, have been accurate. If not, you are free to clarify differently.

Ultimately, whether he plays for the Twins isn't his decision to make.He doesn't run the team.He might want to keep playing, but it comes down to management.Joe has a mysterious past with concussions so they are going take this one very seriously.According to Joe he played with symptoms for over three years. If you know something about concussions the more you get them easier it is to get them.If this lasts a month or so the decision should be made for him.

 

 


#43 Sconnie

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 08:08 AM

Ultimately, whether he plays for the Twins isn't his decision to make. He doesn't run the team. He might want to keep playing, but it comes down to management. Joe has a mysterious past with concussions so they are going take this one very seriously. According to Joe he played with symptoms for over three years. If you know something about concussions the more you get them easier it is to get them. If this lasts a month or so the decision should be made for him.

its true that more concussions you get, the easier it is to get them. Agreed that there is a threshold that “should” have the decision made for him.

I don’t know that it “will” be made for him. He came back from the last one well past the month of symptoms threshold. His symptoms have been persisting a month currently and the talk is to bring him back.

I think (I dont know) that the decision is his to make. It probably should be his to make for as long as he’s under contract and he passes medical evaluations.

If I were in his shoes I like to think that I’d hang it up, but then it’s easy for me to say that from here.

If I were in Falvine’s shoes, I don’t think I’d re-sign Joe, for health reasons.
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#44 DrNeau

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 02:34 AM

Timeline

 

* 8/2013: Mauer suffers concussion - ending season and prompted move from catcher.
* 10/2013: Mauer is fully-cleared to resume baseball activities
* 5/30/14: [Mauer's remark on health and sub-par performance] "I feel pretty good actually, which is even more frustrating." 
* 2015 spring: "Just overall, I feel great." 
* 11/6/2015: Mauer stated he had "no lingering issues from the 2013 concussion". 
* 2016 spring: Mauer stated he had been experiencing "blurred vision" for 2.5 years since the 8/2013 concussion. Mauer followed up in a separate interview and stated he was "feeling great".
* 5/11/2018: Mauer dives for foul ball in game. 
* 5/18/2018: Mauer leaves mid-game and stated he had a condition which was "neck and upper-back related", similar to whiplash. 
* 5/19/2018: Twins place Mauer on 10-day DL for cervical strain that includes concussion-like symptoms. Twins decided to have doctors administer a SCAT 5 concussion examination. Mauer passes the test. Team maintains that Mauer did not officially have a concussion.
 

Sort of an interesting chain of events. 

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#45 DrNeau

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 01:05 PM

The Twins placed him on the 10-day disabled list the following day with a cervical strain and concussion-like symptoms. Asked directly if he believes he suffered a concussion against the Angels, Mauer suggested he had.


“Definitely having the symptoms,” he said. “I think that’s kind of how they do (differentiate): If you have the symptoms, then you probably had one.”

https://www.twinciti...-not-there-yet/

 

Very interesting that despite the Twins putting Mauer on the DL due to Mauer's claims of experiencing symptoms, the team has maintained that (1) Mauer has not had a concussion, and additionally, (2) Mauer passed the concussion test. In the article above, Mauer has made a statement that doctors "differentiate" a concussion by a person having "the symptoms". Doctors don't make a diagnosis off of the symptoms alone. 

 

To say that, isn't really accurate. He took the test - and passed. 

 

Additionally, his statements regarding his own health have been demonstrated (time and time again) to not add up.

 

Isn't that weird to anyone? I wonder why this is not being discussed.

Edited by DrNeau, 06 June 2018 - 01:43 PM.


#46 yarnivek1972

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 05:59 PM

Ultimately, whether he plays for the Twins isn't his decision to make. He doesn't run the team. He might want to keep playing, but it comes down to management. Joe has a mysterious past with concussions so they are going take this one very seriously. According to Joe he played with symptoms for over three years. If you know something about concussions the more you get them easier it is to get them. If this lasts a month or so the decision should be made for him.



If he is medically cleared, the decision is absolutely his to play or not. They can’t keep him on the DL if he’s medically cleared. Are you suggesting the Twins release him even if he is cleared and wants to play? I don’t see that happening and it certainly benefits no one.
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#47 ewen21

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 08:19 PM

 

If he is medically cleared, the decision is absolutely his to play or not. They can’t keep him on the DL if he’s medically cleared. Are you suggesting the Twins release him even if he is cleared and wants to play? I don’t see that happening and it certainly benefits no one.

NO, I am mostly concerned about the compounding effects of concussions at this point.For Joe's sake he should weigh his options because he is in a good place if he decides not to play after this year. Do you believe he should risk his well being and play on after this year?At this point, I don't see that as a good move.Not for anyone.

 

Does anyone want to see his career end being taken off the field for (God forbid) something bad?I know I don't.NO one does.

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#48 ewen21

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 08:20 PM

My thing is if we extend the timeline out far enough it opens the door for the potential for something bad to happen and that should be a concern for any fan.


#49 yarnivek1972

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 06:13 AM

Unless you have a medical degree you are in no position to offer an opinion as to what kind of risks he is taking. Is Mauer having that discussion with his doctor and family?

Probably.

But you continue to assert that it is the Twins decision to make and not Mauer’s. That is simply not true, unless the Twins flat out release him. They can’t force him to retire.
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#50 ThejacKmp

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 07:16 AM

 

Very interesting that despite the Twins putting Mauer on the DL due to Mauer's claims of experiencing symptoms, the team has maintained that (1) Mauer has not had a concussion, and additionally, (2) Mauer passed the concussion test. In the article above, Mauer has made a statement that doctors "differentiate" a concussion by a person having "the symptoms". Doctors don't make a diagnosis off of the symptoms alone. 

 

To say that, isn't really accurate. He took the test - and passed. 

 

Additionally, his statements regarding his own health have been demonstrated (time and time again) to not add up.

 

Isn't that weird to anyone? I wonder why this is not being discussed.

 

I think it's semantics and a lay person talking about the vagueries of health care terms. Doctors draw a line between concussions and concussion symptoms but to Joe, it's all the same. It's like if you're tripping on acid vs. having an acid flashback - you're seeing weird things either way, what does it really matter to you? But to a doctor, it affects treatment.

 

When has Joe lied about his health? He had a weird think in his leg and as a private guy, didn't talk about it a lot. Also not in his interest (or the Twins) to be forthcoming about injuries - Belichek has made an art of this in the NFL. The press blew it up because of the contract he'd signed and because it's the press and that's what it does.

 

Concussions are a weird thing. Doctors know less about the brain than any other part of the body. Some guys can take blows to the head and be relatively fine and some can't. Symptoms linger and get triggered by weird things - my brother has had a number of concussions and avoids driving more than 15 minutes at night because the headlights can give him problems.

 

Non-story to me.

Edited by ThejacKmp, 07 June 2018 - 07:18 AM.

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#51 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 08:44 AM

Unless you have a medical degree you are in no position to offer an opinion as to what kind of risks he is taking. Is Mauer having that discussion with his doctor and family?
Probably.
But you continue to assert that it is the Twins decision to make and not Mauer’s. That is simply not true, unless the Twins flat out release him. They can’t force him to retire.


This. Cutting Maier out of the decision is straight up nonsense.
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#52 ewen21

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 01:56 PM

 

This. Cutting Maier out of the decision is straight up nonsense.

Even AFTER the season is done and the contract is up?Do the Twins not decide on how the roster shakes out for next year and beyond or not?

 

 


#53 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 01:58 PM

Even AFTER the season is done and the contract is up?Do the Twins not decide on how the roster shakes out for next year and beyond or not?


They can decide if he remains a Twin. They don’t get to end his career as you keep insinuating. He can sign elsewhere and keep playing.

They can advise him to retire. His doctors can advise it too. Ultimately Joe decides when he is done, as he should.
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#54 ewen21

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 02:01 PM

 

They can decide if he remains a Twin. They don’t get to end his career as you keep insinuating. He can sign elsewhere and keep playing.

They can advise him to retire. His doctors can advise it too. Ultimately Joe decides when he is done, as he should.

And the Twins decide if they resign him.


#55 DrNeau

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 02:55 PM

 

I think it's semantics and a lay person talking about the vagueries of health care terms. Doctors draw a line between concussions and concussion symptoms but to Joe, it's all the same. It's like if you're tripping on acid vs. having an acid flashback - you're seeing weird things either way, what does it really matter to you? But to a doctor, it affects treatment.

 

When has Joe lied about his health? He had a weird think in his leg and as a private guy, didn't talk about it a lot. Also not in his interest (or the Twins) to be forthcoming about injuries - Belichek has made an art of this in the NFL. The press blew it up because of the contract he'd signed and because it's the press and that's what it does.

 

Concussions are a weird thing. Doctors know less about the brain than any other part of the body. Some guys can take blows to the head and be relatively fine and some can't. Symptoms linger and get triggered by weird things - my brother has had a number of concussions and avoids driving more than 15 minutes at night because the headlights can give him problems.

 

Non-story to me.

 

5/30/14: Player says he feels pretty good.
4/2/15: Player says he feels great.
11/6/15: Player says he has no lingering issues from 2013 concussion.
4/12/16: Player says he had been experiencing blurred vision during an entire 2.5-year span, since 8/13.
5/11/18: Player dives for ball in a game.
5/18/18: Player comes out of game a week later.
5/19/18: Player passes concussion test. Team says player didn't have concussion.
5/31/18: Player says doctors diagnose concussions on the basis that if a player has the symptoms, then that means the player had a concussionReporter stated the player suggested he had suffered a concussion. Player's suggestions were then in contrast with both the test results and the team's position on the topic. 

 

Lots of "semantics" here, that is for sure. Semantics where one statement is in direct opposition of another.

 

I had limited my discussion purely to his comments regarding concussions. You questioned when Joe has lied about his health and then brought up bilateral leg weakness. I'll let Mauer's own quote on his leg conditioning be my response. Mauer said on 3/7/14 - when transitioning to 1B - that he got all of his leg workouts catching bullpens in the past. "The past", as it applied to his MLB experience, from the date of that quote (3/7/14), was 10 years and 29 days. So, for 10 years and 29 days, Mauer did not lift legs, because his leg workouts were "catching bullpens". That is on direct quote from Mauer. For you to brush off the reasoning for him having weak legs as just a "weird thing" is sort of interesting.


#56 ThejacKmp

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 03:07 PM

 

5/30/14: Player says he feels pretty good.
4/2/15: Player says he feels great.
11/6/15: Player says he has no lingering issues from 2013 concussion.
4/12/16: Player says he had been experiencing blurred vision during an entire 2.5-year span, since 8/13.
5/11/18: Player dives for ball in a game.
5/18/18: Player comes out of game a week later.
5/19/18: Player passes concussion test. Team says player didn't have concussion.
5/31/18: Player says doctors diagnose concussions on the basis that if a player has the symptoms, then that means the player had a concussionReporter stated the player suggested he had suffered a concussion. Player's suggestions were then in contrast with both the test results and the team's position on the topic. 

 

Lots of "semantics" here, that is for sure. Semantics where one statement is in direct opposition of another.

 

I had limited my discussion purely to his comments regarding concussions. You questioned when Joe has lied about his health and then brought up bilateral leg weakness. I'll let Mauer's own quote on his leg conditioning be my response. Mauer said on 3/7/14 - when transitioning to 1B - that he got all of his leg workouts catching bullpens in the past. "The past", as it applied to his MLB experience, from the date of that quote (3/7/14), was 10 years and 29 days. So, for 10 years and 29 days, Mauer did not lift legs, because his leg workouts were "catching bullpens". That is on direct quote from Mauer. For you to brush off the reasoning for him having weak legs as just a "weird thing" is sort of interesting.

 

I'm curious what your overall view is. Joe Mauer lies about his health? Joe Mauer is not on the same page as his doctors? Joe Mauer is making up or babying health issues?

 

I think concussions are super confusing and hard to diagnose. I think the same thing is true of a lot of other medical aspects - doctors misdiagnose things or can't give you something precise.

 

I don't get your catching bullpens issue. He seems to say that he doesn't do leg workouts because catching bullpens works out his legs. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I tried catching when I was 75 pounds and it was really hard on legs, I can't imagine how crazy it would be on the pro level.


#57 DrNeau

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 03:36 PM

 

I'm curious what your overall view is. Joe Mauer lies about his health? Joe Mauer is not on the same page as his doctors? Joe Mauer is making up or babying health issues?

 

I think concussions are super confusing and hard to diagnose. I think the same thing is true of a lot of other medical aspects - doctors misdiagnose things or can't give you something precise.

 

I don't get your catching bullpens issue. He seems to say that he doesn't do leg workouts because catching bullpens works out his legs. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I tried catching when I was 75 pounds and it was really hard on legs, I can't imagine how crazy it would be on the pro level.

 

These are your points?
* Bilateral leg weakness was a "weird thing". The press "blew it up".
* Concussions are a "weird thing". They are confusing and hard to diagnose. Doctors misdiagnose things.
* Catching bullpens is "crazy" on the legs. For Joe Mauer, it was sufficient to not lift leg weights over the span of 10 years.

 

My overall view is that Mauer's quotes are often conflicting. His quotes have conflicted with medical exam results. His quotes have conflicted with the team, where Mauer says he had a concussion and the team says he did not. His quotes have even conflicted with his very own quotes. I find that odd; and, as I said, I wonder why that is not being discussed. 

Edited by DrNeau, 07 June 2018 - 04:04 PM.


#58 ThejacKmp

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:42 AM

 

These are your points?
* Bilateral leg weakness was a "weird thing". The press "blew it up".
* Concussions are a "weird thing". They are confusing and hard to diagnose. Doctors misdiagnose things.
* Catching bullpens is "crazy" on the legs. For Joe Mauer, it was sufficient to not lift leg weights over the span of 10 years.

 

My overall view is that Mauer's quotes are often conflicting. His quotes have conflicted with medical exam results. His quotes have conflicted with the team, where Mauer says he had a concussion and the team says he did not. His quotes have even conflicted with his very own quotes. I find that odd; and, as I said, I wonder why that is not being discussed. 

 

To not lift weights during the season. The offseason is a different matter. I'm also certain that Joe Mauer is not making his own training decisions, he's doing what the Twins training staff tells him to do.

 

You can put quotes around weird thing to minimize it but they're both relatively freak accidents that are difficult to decipher. In both cases, Joe gets blamed by an impatient media and fan base that feel entitled to complain because "he's got a big contract" when its the medical staff that doesn't have a clear concept of what's going on. And that doesn't mean I think we should blame doctors - we should just realize that with concussions, doctors are pretty much in the dark as to how an individual one will progress. With his leg issue, doctors had a difficult time diagnosing what was going on.

 

Joe's not a doctor, reading into the quotes of a guy who doesn't like talking to the media but is forced to talk to an increasingly bitter and hostile one seems like a pretty pointless activity.

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#59 KGB

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 07:11 AM

 

 

Joe's not a doctor, reading into the quotes of a guy who doesn't like talking to the media but is forced to talk to an increasingly bitter and hostile one seems like a pretty pointless activity.

I think trying to label the media as "bitter and hostile" is a Trump-like reach.

 

Overall the mainstream media has been very kind to Mauer.He is far from a perfect player, so writing or reporting about his injury history or weakness in his game doesn't make it a attack on him.People who attack him on the internet are not the same people as the media.It's Mauer's right not to talk to the media, but it leaves people guessing, so if he want to set the record straight it up to him. 


#60 ThejacKmp

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 07:21 AM

 

I think trying to label the media as "bitter and hostile" is a Trump-like reach.

 

Overall the mainstream media has been very kind to Mauer.He is far from a perfect player, so writing or reporting about his injury history or weakness in his game doesn't make it a attack on him.People who attack him on the internet are not the same people as the media.It's Mauer's right not to talk to the media, but it leaves people guessing, so if he want to set the record straight it up to him. 

 

You're right that "the media' is a bit of a broad overstatement. Many media members are calm and rational in talking about Joe the player.

 

But I think it'd be hard to deny that mouthpieces like Souhan have been getting their soundbites off at Joe's expense for years. There's a glee that comes to slamming him and calling him a wuss while ignoring the bigger picture. It's the same thing you often see when they talk about Sano's weight.

 

And I think that unfortunately, a few of them can drive a concept of a player just by bringing the concepts that he's a liar or spoiled or lazy or faking it into the conversation. They have a soap box and what they say steers the dialogue.

 

Interesting point about Mauer not talking to the media. In some ways, being Joe works against him. He's not a guy like David Price who can refuse to talk to people - he's way too nice for that. I think it would actively pain him to ignore someone like that. So he gets stuck in that "Oh shucks, I gotta say something. Wish I didn't have to." zone.