Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Rays start Sergio Romo on consecutive days

  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 notoriousgod71

notoriousgod71

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,451 posts

Posted 20 May 2018 - 07:33 PM

totaling 2.1 innings.

 

If you need two consecutive bullpen games both the manager and the GM should be fired.

  • gunnarthor, bluechipper and DocBauer like this

#2 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,617 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 20 May 2018 - 09:25 PM

totaling 2.1 innings.

 

If you need two consecutive bullpen games both the manager and the GM should be fired.

Or voted into Cooperstown.

  • USAFChief, Riverbrian, Sconnie and 2 others like this

I'm in big trouble at home. I used one of the couch pillows AS A PILLOW.


#3 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,679 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 21 May 2018 - 06:14 AM

 

totaling 2.1 innings.

 

If you need two consecutive bullpen games both the manager and the GM should be fired.

 

It took a long time before people would allow themselves to be vaccinated.

 

To those opposed, it just seemed like a needle in the arm for the hell of it.:)

 

 

  • Sconnie likes this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate


#4 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 11,534 posts

Posted 21 May 2018 - 06:19 AM

 

It took a long time before people would allow themselves to be vaccinated.

 

To those opposed, it just seemed like a needle in the arm for the hell of it.:)

 

The Rays are the vanguard team to a Brave New MLB World. Hello! soon-to-be-routine 4.5 hour games.

  • gunnarthor, Riverbrian and Oldgoat_MN like this

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#5 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,679 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 21 May 2018 - 06:24 AM

It wasn't designed to be a bullpen game. It's an interesting idea. Instead of the starter... starting the first inning. He comes in after the heart of the order bats. Yarborough pitched 6 plus innings after Romo started the first. 

 

By Romo going through the top of the order in the 1st. The starter doesn't have to face the Trout 3 times. 

  • USAFChief and Platoon like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate


#6 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 9,164 posts

Posted 21 May 2018 - 08:11 AM

It's not necessarily a horrible idea but it has a lot of downside that didn't happen. The most obvious is what if the relief pitcher gets knocked around? Do you bring in a second relief pitcher in the first? Bring in the starter with men on? But you could also have a long inning. Was the relief pitcher on a pitch count? We saw the Twins and Brewers' starters both have 30 pitch first innings the other day. Do they let Romo throw 30? Is that an injury concern for relief pitchers once they approach that? 

 

The upside makes some sense, use a big power arm to limit a top-heavy offense and then let your rookie feel more comfortable before facing those big bats. I'd also point out that gimmicky things with pitchers aren't new, despite Brian Kinney's mlbtv euphoria. Bobby Valentine once switched his LH pitcher to LF and brought in a RHP and then kept switching between the two during a game. 

 

I think mlb has a bit of a problem with the all-or-nothing game it's becoming and this is just another step in that direction. 

  • Riverbrian and wsnydes like this

#7 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,747 posts

Posted 21 May 2018 - 11:05 AM

The Rays are the vanguard team to a Brave New MLB World. Hello! soon-to-be-routine 4.5 hour games.


The two games being debated were 3:00 and 3:15.
  • ashburyjohn and Riverbrian like this

#8 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 27,010 posts

Posted 21 May 2018 - 05:44 PM

Teams with bad SP or injuries should try stuff like this.

 

I doubt that even one third of starts in 5 years will qualify for a "win", and not because the pitchers are bad, but because more and more teams will use more and more pitchers on their staffs.

 

It's bad FO / managing that no one has really tried, intentionally, to do something different with pitchers by now.

There's always next year, or the next, or maybe by the time I'm Chief's age, I guess....


#9 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 11,534 posts

Posted 21 May 2018 - 08:36 PM

 

The two games being debated were 3:00 and 3:15.

 

These examples will some day be seen as statistical outliers. Ks and BBs and pitches thrown are on an ever-expanding rate of linear progression in this century. The average RP averages ~1 K and ~1BB more per 9 IP. SPs will likely also increase velocity and resultant pitch count wildness in pursuit of ever-more Ks.

 

By the same token, the offenses' game plans revolve around strategically stretching pitch counts to ascertain pitching weaknesses as well as an overall weapon of pitching arm attrition.

 

The math seems both simple and inevitable. More pitches, more pitching changes, more situational pitcher-hitter match-ups is most certainly going to extend game times.

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#10 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,679 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 21 May 2018 - 09:22 PM

 

These examples will some day be seen as statistical outliers. Ks and BBs and pitches thrown are on an ever-expanding rate of linear progression in this century. The average RP averages ~1 K and ~1BB more per 9 IP. SPs will likely also increase velocity and resultant pitch count wildness in pursuit of ever-more Ks.

 

By the same token, the offenses' game plans revolve around strategically stretching pitch counts to ascertain pitching weaknesses as well as an overall weapon of pitching arm attrition.

 

The math seems both simple and inevitable. More pitches, more pitching changes, more situational pitcher-hitter match-ups is most certainly going to extend game times.

 

Could be but I don't think the Manager should worry about that. He's got a ball game to win. I think the move was excellent out of the box thinking. Start with a right handed bullpen guy against a tough all righty lineup. Then have your starter start in the 2nd or 3rd and this gives him a decent chance of going 6 innings without facing Trout 3 times when the research is showing the sharp decline the third time around. And... it doesn't have to mean an increase in game times because all he did was change the order with the same amount of pitchers. Sunday became a bullpen game because Andriese only lasted two innings for whatever reason but Saturday was similar to regular usage in a different order. 

 

Kevin Cash just moved up on my list of managers I'd consider for the Twins. 

 

As for the length of games... The MLB front office can conduct that research and interpret in wrong.:)

  • USAFChief likes this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate


#11 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,679 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 21 May 2018 - 09:29 PM

1. Cozart

2. Trout

3. Upton

4. Pujols

5. Simmons

6. Kinsler

 

All right handed.

 

Ryan Yarborough the scheduled starter in the rotation is left handed. 

 

By starting Romo... He faces all the tough right handers in the 1st inning... maybe the 2nd as well.Yarborough simply starts the 2nd or 3rd instead of the 1st. It's brilliant out of the box thinking and I'm hoping Molitor was paying attention. 

 

  • USAFChief, jokin, Blackjack and 1 other like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate


#12 jkcarew

jkcarew

    Chattanooga Lookouts

  • Members
  • 639 posts

Posted 21 May 2018 - 09:41 PM

Any and all innovations that prove to be ‘effective’ will not necessarily make for better baseball. This amounts to yet another reason to carry more pitchers and make more pitching changes. Yuk.
  • notoriousgod71 and Platoon like this

#13 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 11,534 posts

Posted 22 May 2018 - 05:55 AM

 

Could be but I don't think the Manager should worry about that. He's got a ball game to win. I think the move was excellent out of the box thinking. Start with a right handed bullpen guy against a tough all righty lineup. Then have your starter start in the 2nd or 3rd and this gives him a decent chance of going 6 innings without facing Trout 3 times when the research is showing the sharp decline the third time around. And... it doesn't have to mean an increase in game times because all he did was change the order with the same amount of pitchers. Sunday became a bullpen game because Andriese only lasted two innings for whatever reason but Saturday was similar to regular usage in a different order. 

 

Kevin Cash just moved up on my list of managers I'd consider for the Twins. 

 

As for the length of games... The MLB front office can conduct that research and interpret in wrong.:)

 

I'm a big fan of innovative thinking, but it was none other than Billy Martin who began three-by-three pitching corps back in the 80s.

 

In regards to your comments....

 

I had a similar conversation with Tom Kelly on the radio back in the 90s. Randy Johnson was pitching in middle inning relief after coming off of the DL. He had stopped the Twins in their tracks from sealing a victory by coming in and dominating from the end of the 5th into the 8th inning. It occurred to me what a weapon he might be pitching in 40-50 competitive games in higher leverage situations at say, 3-4 innings per outing.

 

I was somewhat surprised to hear TK respond that something like that might be a great idea, but it could never happen because the player agents wouldn't allow it.

 

Statistical analysis can take the game in new and unexpected directions, but the financial paydays that players receive in glamorous traditional roles represent barriers that will have to be broken down. In addition to that, the potential damage done to the game from such heavy micromanaging has to be carefully considered.

 

Meanwhile, MLB is already extremely concerned about the ever-increasing length of games in a world of ever-shrinking attention spans.

 

We're on a slippery slope, and with the frequency of pitcher injuries already a concern and (mixing metaphors), once the dam is burst and MLB agrees to expand rosters to say, 28, and adds three more pitchers, you have the prospect of managers swamped in data-driven analysis and inevitably tempted into assigning pitchers into ever-more specialized roles... 

Edited by jokin, 22 May 2018 - 05:58 AM.

  • USAFChief, Riverbrian and Platoon like this

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#14 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,679 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 22 May 2018 - 06:28 AM

 

I'm a big fan of innovative thinking, but it was none other than Billy Martin who began three-by-three pitching corps back in the 80s.

 

In regards to your comments....

 

I had a similar conversation with Tom Kelly on the radio back in the 90s. Randy Johnson was pitching in middle inning relief after coming off of the DL. He had stopped the Twins in their tracks from sealing a victory by coming in and dominating from the end of the 5th into the 8th inning. It occurred to me what a weapon he might be pitching in 40-50 competitive games in higher leverage situations at say, 3-4 innings per outing.

 

I was somewhat surprised to hear TK respond that something like that might be a great idea, but it could never happen because the player agents wouldn't allow it.

 

Statistical analysis can take the game in new and unexpected directions, but the financial paydays that players receive in glamorous traditional roles represent barriers that will have to be broken down. In addition to that, the potential damage done to the game from such heavy micromanaging has to be carefully considered.

 

Meanwhile, MLB is already extremely concerned about the ever-increasing length of games in a world of ever-shrinking attention spans.

 

We're on a slippery slope, and with the frequency of pitcher injuries already a concern and (mixing metaphors), once the dam is burst and MLB agrees to expand rosters to say, 28, and adds three more pitchers, you have the prospect of managers swamped in data-driven analysis and inevitably tempted into assigning pitchers into ever-more specialized roles... 

 

You and TK hit the nail on the head and along comes Andrew Miller a couple of decades later just to show how slow change is gonna be. 

 

When Tom talks about the agents not allowing it... he is also talking about the other side as well... he's talking about the arbitrators, he's talking about the GM's, he's talking about Dellin Betances in 2017. Your post is spot on. 

 

Tom could also be talking about the fans as well and the social media mobs who claim that Cash should be fired for trying something different. Change comes in very slow increments. 

 

As for the length of the game. I think MLB is making a mistake. They have an issue but reducing game time from 3:10 to 2:40 isn't going to fix it. It's not the length of the game... it's the pace of the game... it's the entertainment of the game. They need to think about presentation instead... however that's also going to be a long road of change as long as Brian Dozier has an issue with Chance Sisco and Ian Kinsler has a problem with Celebration. 

 

I thought your post was excellent. 

  • jokin likes this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate


#15 Platoon

Platoon

    Minnesota Twins

  • Members
  • 4,844 posts
  • LocationTwinsWorld

Posted 22 May 2018 - 07:00 AM

It took a long time before people would allow themselves to be vaccinated.
 
To those opposed, it just seemed like a needle in the arm for the hell of it.:)

I had my very first flu shot this year, and was sick for 3 days. More disconcerting was that as the nurse gave it to me we were discussing the effectiveness of said medication. She was recounting how her mom had one earlier in the year, but still got the flu. I asked how she was doing? Oh, she died, she was 93. My next flu shot will likely be when I am 94! :)
TwinsWorld: Did you hear we just updated the Stadium Club?

If I wanted balls and strikes called by a robot, I would get an Xbox!

#16 Platoon

Platoon

    Minnesota Twins

  • Members
  • 4,844 posts
  • LocationTwinsWorld

Posted 22 May 2018 - 07:16 AM

It's true pace and entertainment are two different definitions. Add length for a third if you wish. The key word might be change though. Will all the possible changes to the game make it so unlike the baseball that was so popular, become unpopular. Or will the younger generations embrace a new style of play with the traditions of starting pitchers going seven, set up men, and closers becoming passe? And I imagine the demise of defensive driven positions like CF, SS, and even catcher. I don't know if this will all come to fruition, but it seems inexorably headed in that direction. Btw, increasing the roster to for example to 28, with most likely pitchers will make for some pretty lousy RP's in the game. There's barely enough as it is. But I don't see an alternative.

Edited by Platoon, 22 May 2018 - 07:18 AM.

  • jokin likes this
TwinsWorld: Did you hear we just updated the Stadium Club?

If I wanted balls and strikes called by a robot, I would get an Xbox!

#17 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 9,164 posts

Posted 22 May 2018 - 08:21 AM

 

I had my very first flu shot this year, and was sick for 3 days. More disconcerting was that as the nurse gave it to me we were discussing the effectiveness of said medication. She was recounting how her mom had one earlier in the year, but still got the flu. I asked how she was doing? Oh, she died, she was 93. My next flu shot will likely be when I am 94! :)

No! Get the flu shot. The "flu shots don't work" stories are mostly fake news from the anti-vac crowd. Getting the flu shot protects you but also protects others - the elderly and young children - who are more at risk. 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...ct/keyfacts.htm

  • Platoon likes this

#18 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,617 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 22 May 2018 - 09:36 AM

No! Get the flu shot. The "flu shots don't work" stories are mostly fake news from the anti-vac crowd. Getting the flu shot protects you but also protects others - the elderly and young children - who are more at risk. 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...ct/keyfacts.htm

Now that a couple of sides to the vaccine discussion have been heard, let's please move any continuation to the Sports Bar forum so as to not derail this thread.

  • Platoon likes this

I'm in big trouble at home. I used one of the couch pillows AS A PILLOW.


#19 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Anyone got a smoke?

  • Twins Mods
  • 21,930 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 22 May 2018 - 10:22 AM

http://joeposnanski....modern-romonce/

 

Posnanski's take. Always interesting, whether you agree or disagree with him.

 

Personally, I think it's an interesting idea. If Romo is going to pitch one inning anyway, it will make no difference in terms of numbers of pitchers used, or number of pitching changes, or number of pitchers needed on the roster, if he pitches that inning in the 1st or the 7th.

 

Get those three or four top of the order RH hitters out in the first, then let your LH starter come into the game and take it from there.

 

 

  • Riverbrian, jokin, snepp and 1 other like this

Cutting my carbs...with a pizza slicer.


#20 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,617 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 22 May 2018 - 11:14 AM

Get those three or four top of the order RH hitters out in the first, then let your LH starter come into the game and take it from there.

Here's a small additional angle, irrespective of matchups.

 

It's well known that, in the long run, the home team scores more runs than the visitors.

 

It was only recently unearthed that the biggest meaningful differential is accounted for in the first inning. (Innings after the eighth are a different and opposite story, since the home team is done if they achieve a walk-off.) Both teams score more runs in the first than in any other inning, no doubt due to getting to choose who bats. Article is here, for anyone interested.

 

So, for the visiting team, it's an interesting experiment, to try having one of your best one-inning guys give it a go in the first; maybe you can neutralize the home advantage to some degree. If you're the home team, it's also your best opportunity to stunt the opposition's scoring.

 

It will take a long long time, longer than Kevin Cash's tenure probably, to develop enough results to tell.

  • USAFChief, Riverbrian and jokin like this

I'm in big trouble at home. I used one of the couch pillows AS A PILLOW.