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Article: SEA 1, MIN 0: Twins Get LeBlanc’ed

jake odorizzi mitch garver
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#21 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:34 AM

That's a nice sign, but not that remarkable in itself. It would put him about 59th out of 189 qualifiers in that time. But, I hope it continues.


Top one third of all players isn't good enough? How high are your expectations?
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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#22 slash129

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:46 AM

 

Wade and Gordon should be up here, imo.

They really miss Sano and Polanco on offense. A lot.

That's two 40 moves, two burnt options and two clocks a tickin'. 

 

I think Wade's approach will translate, and he should be a significant defensive upgrade over Grossman. However, if that was going to be the move, it should have been done when Buxton went on the DL.Now he's not going to play every day. Is that worth the 40-move, option and clock start?

 

How much is BABIP Gordon going to move the needle at the MLB level against MLB defenses? I don't think he runs like his brother, so he could just be the AA version of 2014 Danny Santana. Is he going to make that play that Adrianza made last night to keep the game at 0-0 at the time?

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#23 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:48 AM

Top one third of all players isn't good enough? How high are your expectations?

Over a two week stretch it's not very meaningful. I'd like to see it continue.
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#24 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:54 AM

That's two 40 moves, two burnt options and two clocks a tickin'.

I think Wade's approach will translate, and he should be a significant defensive upgrade over Grossman. However, if that was going to be the move, it should have been done when Buxton went on the DL. Now he's not going to play every day. Is that worth the 40-move, option and clock start?

How much is BABIP Gordon going to move the needle at the MLB level against MLB defenses? I don't think he runs like his brother, so he could just be the AA version of 2014 Danny Santana. Is he going to make that play that Adrianza made last night to keep the game at 0-0 at the time?


Wade is 25.... And you are worried about options and service time? We probably don't agree on that. He certainly plays better defense than Grossman, and he hits better than Buxton, and maybe Grossman. Despite what people say, Grossman plays a lot. A and he's replacement level....

Gordon? I just think he's going to be better than what they have. I understand the doubters. I don't agree with them.

And, forty man? They don't need everyone on that list now, as we see from history when they turn over the list every year.
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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#25 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:55 AM

Over a two week stretch it's not very meaningful. I'd like to see it continue.


Agreed, but that's not what i thought you said, must have read it wrong. I'd be thrilled if he's one of the top third of players in the game.
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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#26 bobs

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:10 AM

Terrific effort from Odorizzi.Bad approach/game plan from Twins hitters.


#27 USAFChief

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:34 AM

 

Morrison also failed to make a defensive play in the Yankees series, that led to a loss. Mauer is much, much better in the field. Morrison needs to DH. I am cautiously optimistic for his bat to heat up. But if Morrison can't "get in the game" as a DH then the FO needs to deal with it somehow.

i doubt Morrison playing first is about Morrison.

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#28 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:39 AM

Agreed, but that's not what i thought you said, must have read it wrong. I'd be thrilled if he's one of the top third of players in the game.


Many of those 189 players also provide value at defense or baserunning though.
Not that I can't live with those numbers from Morrison, but top third in offense is probably the minimum bar for a player with no other value.
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#29 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:44 AM

Many of those 189 players also provide value at defense or baserunning though.
Not that I can't live with those numbers from Morrison, but top third in offense is probably the minimum bar for a player with no other value.


I'm not sure, I haven't thought about that. But they certainly aren't promoting any better options soon, even if they are there....

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#30 ThejacKmp

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 11:00 AM

 

If Mauer plays in the field and Morrison is the DH, that doesn't happen, yes?

 

 

I haven't seen Morrison much, but from what I've read he's a below average 1B, right?

 

It's hard to complain about losing a 1-0 game with zero earned runs scored. These things happen. Though I'd rather see hits, of course.

 

With Chief on this one. He looked pretty good last night. Made several nice scoops, had nice range on ground balls.

 

That throw was terrible though but Ozzie Smith made errors too. I like to think Mauer wouldn't have done the same but who knows. I want Mauer to be effective in August and September and getting him some days off makes sense. I've noticed the Twins flipping Morrison and Mauer on days after Joe makes a lot of diving plays. I wonder if they're trying to manage his soreness.

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#31 ThejacKmp

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 11:04 AM

 

Wade is 25.... And you are worried about options and service time? We probably don't agree on that. He certainly plays better defense than Grossman, and he hits better than Buxton, and maybe Grossman. Despite what people say, Grossman plays a lot. A and he's replacement level....

Gordon? I just think he's going to be better than what they have. I understand the doubters. I don't agree with them.

And, forty man? They don't need everyone on that list now, as we see from history when they turn over the list every year.

 

Wade (and Granite) hit lefty. The Twins have little need for a LH hitting OF unless Rosario or Kepler goes down. Wade wouldn't play over either of those. If he was right-handed, Grossman might not be on the team but he isn't.

 

Robbie Grossman had a tough first two weeks but he's put up an .868 OPS over his last 16 games. Driving the ball, getting on base, not as awful in the field. I'd prefer the Twins go find a new fourth OF (Wade/Granite bat from the wrong side; I'd like to see McCutchen if he's available) but Grossman is an acceptable 5th OF/bench bat. He almost always takes a good approach and there's value to that.

 

 


#32 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 11:07 AM

Wade (and Granite) hit lefty. The Twins have little need for a LH hitting OF unless Rosario or Kepler goes down. Wade wouldn't play over either of those. If he was right-handed, Grossman might not be on the team but he isn't.

Robbie Grossman had a tough first two weeks but he's put up an .868 OPS over his last 16 games. Driving the ball, getting on base, not as awful in the field. I'd prefer the Twins go find a new fourth OF (Wade/Granite bat from the wrong side; I'd like to see McCutchen if he's available) but Grossman is an acceptable 5th OF/bench bat. He almost always takes a good approach and there's value to that.


They need guys who can hit, left or right. This handedness obsession is odd to me. I get it, I don't agree with it. Don't forget defense and baserunning....

Sure, trading for an OF would be nice, but that's not happening until mid July....
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#33 bighat

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 11:45 AM

 

Top one third of all players isn't good enough? How high are your expectations?

 

The Twins didn't sign Morrison play like a minor leaguer for a month (April) and be a borderline average singles hitter for the next 2 weeks (May).


#34 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 11:51 AM

 

The Twins didn't sign Morrison play like a minor leaguer for a month (April) and be a borderline average singles hitter for the next 2 weeks (May).

 

that literally has nothing to do with the post i replied too....which was that being a top 59 offensive player in all of baseball isn't good enough. No place was I taliking about the past......

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#35 ThejacKmp

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 12:03 PM

 

They need guys who can hit, left or right. This handedness obsession is odd to me. I get it, I don't agree with it. Don't forget defense and baserunning....

Sure, trading for an OF would be nice, but that's not happening until mid July....

 

Not sure what there is to agree with. Lefties hit righties better and righties hit lefties better. You're putting your team in a better spot if you have a backup OF who hits from the opposite side as the guy he spells.

 

Twins 4th OF is likely to play when there is a LH starting pitcher on the mound. Lamonte Wade has a .667 OPS vs. LH so far this season (admittedly small SS) and would not be put in a position to succeed. Robbie Grossman's career MLB OPS vs LHP is .753 (and even as he has slumped this year it is still .733).

 

If Lamonte Wade was a can't miss prospect, sure he'd be up. But he seems like more of a 4th OF unless he starts hitting with power (another reason he should be playing every day in the minors). His defense would be better than Grossman but a defensive OF is less useful for the Twins than a guy who hits righty. Especially with Sano out and our right handed options severely limited.

 

As for the deadline, not necessarily. Trade deadline is the final date but trades can and do happen before then. The Giants, for instance, are 21-21 with top two pitchers out for at least another month. They may be ready to sell by late June, especially a guy like McCutchen who would get them close to being under the luxury tax (important if they see themselves as a Harper/Machado target this offseason).

 

For now Grossman is fine (there aren't internal options and the available external options are not better than Grossman now) but hopefully by the All-Star Break, the twins can make an upgrade. With the pen and the rotation looking good and Polanco back around the break, it might be their biggest need.

 


#36 ThejacKmp

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 12:07 PM

 

The Twins didn't sign Morrison play like a minor leaguer for a month (April) and be a borderline average singles hitter for the next 2 weeks (May).

 

No they signed him for his entire body of work. Morrison is trending in the right direction and has a career OPS+ of 108. He isn't striking out more often than he has in the past and his line drive rate is similar to his career rate. His BABIP is .224 and while some will blame the shift, he saw the shift a lot last year and still had a career year.

 

He'll get a bit more lucky and the hits will fall. He may not be last year's Logan Morrison but should settle in to be an above average hitter. At some point he will carry the team for a week and that will be fun. When Sano comes back, he should be DHing against lefties less, which would be nice.

Edited by ThejacKmp, 15 May 2018 - 12:08 PM.

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#37 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 12:14 PM

 

Not sure what there is to agree with. Lefties hit righties better and righties hit lefties better. You're putting your team in a better spot if you have a backup OF who hits from the opposite side as the guy he spells.

 

Twins 4th OF is likely to play when there is a LH starting pitcher on the mound. Lamonte Wade has a .667 OPS vs. LH so far this season (admittedly small SS) and would not be put in a position to succeed. Robbie Grossman's career MLB OPS vs LHP is .753 (and even as he has slumped this year it is still .733).

 

If Lamonte Wade was a can't miss prospect, sure he'd be up. But he seems like more of a 4th OF unless he starts hitting with power (another reason he should be playing every day in the minors). His defense would be better than Grossman but a defensive OF is less useful for the Twins than a guy who hits righty. Especially with Sano out and our right handed options severely limited.

 

As for the deadline, not necessarily. Trade deadline is the final date but trades can and do happen before then. The Giants, for instance, are 21-21 with top two pitchers out for at least another month. They may be ready to sell by late June, especially a guy like McCutchen who would get them close to being under the luxury tax (important if they see themselves as a Harper/Machado target this offseason).

 

For now Grossman is fine (there aren't internal options and the available external options are not better than Grossman now) but hopefully by the All-Star Break, the twins can make an upgrade. With the pen and the rotation looking good and Polanco back around the break, it might be their biggest need.

 

Trades just don't happen, of good players, historically until July. That's what history shows us. Whether teams should or should not trade earlier is a different discussion, but they just don't usually. Super, super, rarely. So, another 6 weeks by your timeline.

 

In the meantime, Wade could be up and playing (though that is less needed now that Buxton is back, agreed). I'm not sure why we are looking at 6 weeks of data for Wade, but a career for Grossman....

 

And, despite people continuing to type it, I disagree. Defense matters.

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#38 ThejacKmp

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:55 PM

 

Trades just don't happen, of good players, historically until July. That's what history shows us. Whether teams should or should not trade earlier is a different discussion, but they just don't usually. Super, super, rarely. So, another 6 weeks by your timeline.

 

In the meantime, Wade could be up and playing (though that is less needed now that Buxton is back, agreed). I'm not sure why we are looking at 6 weeks of data for Wade, but a career for Grossman....

 

And, despite people continuing to type it, I disagree. Defense matters.

 

Defense does matter (BTW, I never said it didn't) but it isn't the sole thing. Also, Lamonte Wade isn't a defensive whiz, he's a decent fielder. Grossman is below average but he matches other needs (switch hitter) that Wade does not. In an overall picture of the 4th OF role, the defense seems less important, especially since the Twins have the guy Grossman replaces as a defensive sub in late-inning situations. Wade's defense is useless in games he does not start (he's not a defensive replace for Buxton, Kepler or Rosario) while Grossman's ability to PH as a switch hitter makes him potentially useful every game.

I use the data we have at hand, the more we have the better. We don't have any other data of Wade in the high minors or majors. Another point in Grossman's favor. He may not be perfect but you know what you get. Wade is likely to be overmatched at times simply because of inexperience. If he checked every other box, great. But as is, he doesn't fit the team.

 

This does raise some long-term concerns for Wade and Granite. It's hard to see the Twins having much of a role for either one (and certainly not both) in the upcoming 2-3 years. It'll be interesting to see if they become trade chips at the deadline.

Edited by ThejacKmp, 15 May 2018 - 02:01 PM.


#39 ThejacKmp

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:59 PM

 

Trades just don't happen, of good players, historically until July. That's what history shows us. Whether teams should or should not trade earlier is a different discussion, but they just don't usually. Super, super, rarely. So, another 6 weeks by your timeline.

 

 

Certainly most trades take place in July but there are trades of consequence that happen in June.

2016: James Shields traded to White Sox by Padres
2015: Mark Trumbo moves from ARI to SEA as ARI ties to dump payroll
 

These two both seem like decent comps. Veteran guys who are biggish names but who don't fit a fading team are dumped early because of payroll concerns and a need by a team that wants to contend. The Twins have a definite need for a 4th OF who hits RH.

I guess here's a question: Would you trade Wade or Granite (and the five to six years of control) for McCutchen (and his salary) today? I wouldn't with Wade (he's only 24 and may develop a power tool that could make him useful) but I think I'd pull the trigger with Granite. He's almost 26 and seems like a 4th OF - that seems reasonable to get a guy who makes more sense for a team with hopes to contend. Thoughts?

Edited by ThejacKmp, 15 May 2018 - 02:01 PM.


#40 Mike Sixel

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:05 PM

Granite? Before the other team finished asking the question.

Wade? That's tougher. This team isn't close to New York or Boston, or Houston, so I have to think hard about that right now. The playoffs aren't random enough to give up a guy I believe in for a couple months of a backup. Trading for a starter might lead to an easier yes.

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.




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