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Ryan LaMarre Opportunity

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#1 Riverbrian

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 01:40 PM

Ryan LaMarre has been infiltrating other topics, sometimes with my assistance so I'm starting a fresh LaMarre topic to help stay on topic elsewhere.

 

I realize that I'm starting to create the impression that I'm Ryan LaMarre crazy after 12 AB''s. I want to clarify my opinion because I'm getting a lot of small sample size type comments and even some flavor of the month snark comments in response. At the very least, I'm hoping that it can be understood that I understand small sample sizes and my point is probably more about opportunity and timing than it is about LaMarre himself. 

 

I believe it is the job of the front office (General Manager, Scouts... whoever is in the room with input) to put together a 25 man roster. I believe it the job of the GM and staff to look through past statistics and all the factors necessary to make the best determinations.I believe that front office should not waste a 25 man roster spot ever unless the team is in some sort of rebuild situation.

 

If the front office made the determination that Ryan LaMarre gets a 25 man roster spot. I believe they have made a determination that he can play or else they failed to secure a guy who can play. I believe the front office will have made a huge mistake if they just handed a 25 man spot to a player that they (or the manager) doesn't believe can play. 

 

I believe it is the job of the manager to take that 25 man roster and manage it. If the Manager only trusts 22 of the 25 players, I will believe one of two things:

 

1. There are three players that shouldn't be on the roster.

2. Or... those twenty-two players that he trusts to play must be performing at such a high level that he just can't find a spot for the other three to play.  

 

I believe the 25 man roster is important because having depth means that you don't have to put struggling players in the lineup every single day because you have nobody else to play. 

 

I believe a player on the 25 man roster who is 7 for 12 deserves the chance to see if he can go 9 for 16. 

 

I believe there is no past metric or future projection that justifies sitting a player with 7 hits in 12 AB's over a guy who has 4 hits in 48 AB's. The Past is the Past and the Future is the Future... It is the manager's job to put the best player in the lineup TODAY... RIGHT NOW. It is the job of the manager to manage the 25 man roster he has. While Molitor has been trying to bust Morrison out of his slump, he has been ignoring a player who is clearly performing better... right now. 

 

I don't believe the solution is to sit Morrison extensively either because... yeah... he will never get out of his slump that way. But I do believe that he can yield some playing time to see if the 7 for 12 guy can go 9 for 16. I believe that Castro can yield some playing time to Garver as long as Castro has less hits than LaMarre has in 4X the AB's. 

 

I believe that a player will never get a chance to prove himself if he is playing for a manager who is so full of hubris that he will ignore 7 for 12 because he believes the 4 for 48 guy is better. 

 

To further strain on my point from another angle... I believe it was wrong of Tommy Pham to go public with his complaints but I do believe that there are Tommy Pham stories all over the place. Players who never got a chance because the people who control their fate never gave them a chance. Players who don't get a chance and have to watch from the sidelines while players like Piscotty and Grichuk below average the Cardinals out of the playoffs. 

 

I'm not saying that I'm placing a bet on Ryan LaMarre.

 

I'm not saying that Ryan LaMarre is the next Tommy Pham.

 

I'm not saying that Ryan LaMarre is better than Logan Morrison but I'm am saying that Ryan LaMarre has been better than Logan Morrison in the first 14 games.

 

I'm saying it can't be denied that Ryan LaMarre has been better than Logan Morrison in the first 14 games.

 

I'm saying it is the job of the manager to recognize who is better right now and then play them right now. I believe the player should be given the opportunity to earn it... regardless of how he hit in Louisville 3 years ago. 

 

In a nutshell... See if he LaMarre can go 9 for 16 or cut him immediately and go get a player that Molitor will trust to stick in the lineup when Morrison goes 4 for 48. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#2 tbhysgb

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 03:10 PM

If Lamarre is good enough to go into centerfield he should've been good enough to get a start over Grossman in right. Not like Grossman has been lighting the world on fire.

 

Not only that but it's not like Grossman is hitting 9th where if he takes a walk to extend a chance for Dozier.

 

I agree though, you have several guys that Molly doesn't trust enough to use, why are they on the roster then?  

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#3 jkcarew

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 03:22 PM

Seams reasonable, but this seems to be a different argument than what was being made in the post-game thread.That argument seemed to be that the Twins should have gone with LaMarre instead of Grossman against Archer last night.But, the Grossman choice against Archer was easily defendable.And, in fact, the results were fine...Grossman contributed offensively, and his error was completely meaningless (...and, fwiw, LaMarre made a very bad play by throwing home in the 9th...which also ended up being meaningless)

 

"I do believe that there are Tommy Pham stories all over the place. Players who never got a chance because the people who control their fate never gave them a chance."

 

I don't know about the "all over the place" and "never got a change" part of that.Byron Buxton gets more changes than Tommy Pham.Royce Lewis more than Brian Dozier.And, mistakes can be made.But the incentive to ultimately be right and not wrong is astronomical.Tommy Pham is a mistake, but I don't conclude that mistakes/oversights of that magnitude are common.If we picked the next dozen most 'Tommy Pham-like' minor leaguers and 'gave them a change' with 1000 PA's...I suspect we would be hard pressed to come up with even one instance of anything close to Tommy Pham results.

 

Having said that, I'm with the tenor of this thread.I'm not going to have a problem with LaMarre playing instead of Grossman in many scenarios...to see what happens.LaMarre DH'ing against tough left-handed pitching?Hmm...I guess...try it.But, I'd much rather have an additional infielder with offensive potential on the 25-man...and have Sano (even the current version of Sano) DH'ing in that scenario.

 

 

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#4 Mike Sixel

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 03:56 PM

The front office that everyone seems to love thinks he should be on the roster.... So I guess they think he should be playing....
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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#5 Cbell67

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 03:58 PM

You have exactly described Ryan LaMarres' career to this point in this article. Almost everyone quoted extremely limited playing time in the past as reason to not give him a shot now. He has never been given a real chance....even now he has to practically force himself into the lineup by being nearly perfect, and it still isn't enough almost....but his perseverance is impressive luckily..the Twins are going to benefit in the long run from LaMarre....if they give him a legitimate shot

#6 jorgenswest

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 05:25 PM

Tommy Pham had an .840 OPS in AAA first arriving there at 25. LaMarre has a .726 OPS in AAA.

The 12 plate appearances are meaningless and should not be part of your argument. They don’t predict the next 12 plate appearances. Your comment about making the roster is meaningful and persuasive. If we have to look at LaMarre’s collective data, there is nothing to support he will be successful. There was evidence in Pham’s minor league career that he could hit. So we can’t look at numbers but he is on the roster for a reason and is getting a chance today.
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#7 Riverbrian

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 07:30 PM

 

Tommy Pham had an .840 OPS in AAA first arriving there at 25. LaMarre has a .726 OPS in AAA.

The 12 plate appearances are meaningless and should not be part of your argument. They don’t predict the next 12 plate appearances. Your comment about making the roster is meaningful and persuasive. If we have to look at LaMarre’s collective data, there is nothing to support he will be successful. There was evidence in Pham’s minor league career that he could hit. So we can’t look at numbers but he is on the roster for a reason and is getting a chance today.

 

The 12 plate appearances are absolutely meaningless in any projections. I'm not projecting.

 

I'm talking about right now.:)

 

Anyone can say that Morrison is better than LaMarre... I will probably agree with that because that is my assumption as well. I had no idea who LaMarre was or is still.:)  

 

However... the 12 plate appearances are not meaningless because that is all he has. You are taking the only thing he has and saying it's meaningless... So just send him to Rochester to be AAA filler like he has been forever. He has no business being on this roster if the 12 at-bats are meaningless. What can he do? 

 

Those 12 meaningless At-Bats have produced more than Morrison has in his 48 AB's. 

 

We can all wait to be right on our assessments that Morrison is better than LaMarre and I assume we all will be right before 2018 is up but it can't be denied that LaMarre has been better than Morrison in April.

 

We may be right in the end but we have all been wrong in April and our Manager needs to strongly consider that he has been wrong in April... Even if he is going to be right in May... Because the games in April are being played right now. 

 

 

In the end... LaMarre will have no chance to be better than Morrison when 2018 is over because Morrison will keep getting chances and LaMarre will not... because everything he is doing to try and show he belongs is meaningless. In my opinion... Only in projections is it meaningless. 

 

As for a Pham comparison... I wasn't going there. Pointing out Pham's AAA OPS and comparing it to LaMarre's AAA OPS is making a point that isn't mine. 

 

I don't care what LaMarre did in Louisville. I'm talking about April 2018. He's on the roster for a reason... while on the roster he is out performing quite a few of our pedigreed Twins and the only argument for not putting him in the lineup is: He hasn't done it before and nobody thinks he can do it again.:)  

 

BTW... This is why I brought up Pham:

 

https://www.si.com/m...louis-cardinals

 

I believe that there are players who get put to sleep. 

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#8 USAFChief

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:22 PM

LaMarre on a contenders roster was, is, and will continue to be a massive hole on the 25 man roster.

I wish the FO had found a legit 4th OFer this winter, and I hope they're still searching.

And I hope they waste few if any more PAs on LaMarre.
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#9 bluechipper

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:43 PM

 

Tommy Pham had an .840 OPS in AAA first arriving there at 25. LaMarre has a .726 OPS in AAA.

PCL numbers don't count.

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#10 Riverbrian

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:37 AM

 

LaMarre on a contenders roster was, is, and will continue to be a massive hole on the 25 man roster.

I wish the FO had found a legit 4th OFer this winter, and I hope they're still searching.

And I hope they waste few if any more PAs on LaMarre.

 

The only justification that I can think of is:

 

That last LaMarre spot on the roster was going to be considered a flex position all year. Sometimes it will be an extra pitcher, sometime it will be a hitter. A player with options in that spot makes it easier to have a flexible roster in that sense.

 

 

However... you are right... A 4th RH OF would balance the lineup better and help Molitor who is obviously trying to balance a lefty heavy lineup every game. ... A 4th RH OF would be very helpful now that Buxton is on the D.L. and a 4th RH OF could have served as Logan Morrison insurance. 

 

 

 

 

 

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#11 Kelly Vance

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 11:11 AM

Sorry for the long post.  

 

Ryan played his way onto the roster in Spring Training. He earned the spot. He is also swinging a hot bat. Any manager worth his salt would exploit that and ride that horse while the streak lasts. Ryan should get starts and ph opportunities, so he stays hot.

 

As for Lomo, he started cold and the Twins want him to break out. If he heats up, it is good to have a #5 hitter who is raking. So any manager worth his salt would give a high ceiling RBI guy a chance to work through some things.

 

But when these two things come into conflict, you would still play the hot hand. Unless you believe Ryan is a mirage. This is where those who think he is a waste of a roster spot and those who think he is a stud on an upward trajectory to greatness are both wrong. 12 at bats are not meaningless, not any more than his last 12 at bats in October will be. These ABs tell us something, if only to show us a flicker in a long season, they still happened. We now know Ryan is both capable of getting hot and swinging a hot bat right now. 

 

I think the fairest assessment is that Ryan started off hot and should be allowed to prolong his hot streak. We can use him on offense, especially with the spotty offense we have now.  With Buck out there is a vacancy he can fill. I think Molly pulled a Gardy and played the more veteran OFer.

 

But any manager worth his salt does what his instincts tell him and doesn't listen to the critics in the cheap seats. Our opinions don't really matter, and I doubt Paul Molitor reads TD

 

Ryan seems well liked, as shown by the mob scene after his walk off. Maybe Molly will give him more of a chance now that he gave the first nod to Grossman. 

 

And finally, I like watching Ryan hit. When he comes up its like with Eddie. You sit forward in your chair because you think something is probably going to happen. And for me, that is worth something too. 

 

I'm hoping a month from now there is a bigger sample size and its all good. 

 

Edited by Kelly Vance, 22 April 2018 - 11:14 AM.

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#12 Cbell67

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 05:42 PM

...and you aren't even talking about his speed or his defense

#13 jud6312

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:00 PM

I think you owe Eddie an apology for comparing his ABs to LaMarre's.

 

Best case scenario in a LaMarre AB is that he bleeds a single through the infield. Provided they don't throw him a curveball.


#14 jud6312

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:02 PM

And, yes, let's talk about his defense. Which play did you like better this weekend? The one where he overthrew the cutoff man on Friday or the one where he overthrew the cutoff man on Saturday?

 

True, neither ended up mattering much, but at some point they will.


#15 kab21

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 04:40 PM

In an ideal situation the utility outfielder, utility infielder and the last bullpen spot are guys that can fill in in a pinch but are mostly outside of the playing rotation. You could put a prospect (like Granite) into that role but a prospect needs regular AB's for development. I don't have any expectations for Lamarre (regardless of his 12 AB's) but I am also not upset that they didn't acquire a better 4th OF'er. If any of the OF'ers goes down then I am okay with Granite (injured), Cave (struggling) or Wade getting some chances. For day to day issues I am also okay with Grossman (struggling) or Lamarre filling in.

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#16 Twodogs

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 04:58 PM

Lamarre, the Twins version of Ohtani
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#17 Mike Sixel

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 05:01 PM

But is Granite really a prospect in Minnesota? With Cave, Wade and the the guys in the majors?

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#18 USAFChief

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 07:53 PM

In an ideal situation the utility outfielder, utility infielder and the last bullpen spot are guys that can fill in in a pinch but are mostly outside of the playing rotation. You could put a prospect (like Granite) into that role but a prospect needs regular AB's for development. I don't have any expectations for Lamarre (regardless of his 12 AB's) but I am also not upset that they didn't acquire a better 4th OF'er. If any of the OF'ers goes down then I am okay with Granite (injured), Cave (struggling) or Wade getting some chances. For day to day issues I am also okay with Grossman (struggling) or Lamarre filling in.


Granite isn’t a prospect, and when you watch good teams, you understand why Grossman/LaMarre do nothing to help the team win.
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#19 Doctor Wu

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 08:36 AM

 

Granite isn’t a prospect, and when you watch good teams, you understand why Grossman/LaMarre do nothing to help the team win.

I'm not sure if that's a fair criticism. Grossman certainly has his weaknesses, but you can't overlook his OBP number the past couple of seasons. And I'm still holding out hope the LaMarre is for real, and will prove all the doubters wrong. Amazing and surprising things can sometimes happen in baseball, one of the reasons i still keep following the game and this frustrating team of ours!


#20 kab21

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 08:50 AM

 

Granite isn’t a prospect, and when you watch good teams, you understand why Grossman/LaMarre do nothing to help the team win.

Grossman is nice bench bat on a good team. He is the Gene Larkin of this team. The Twins just happen to have Mauer (1B), Morrison (DH/1B), Sano (part time DH) and Garver (C/1B/DH). He just doesn't really fit on this team with so many DH/PH options.

 

You might not think that Granite needs daily AB's but he has only played half a season at AAA. He could be in the majors right now but getting daily AB's still helps. 

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Is 2016 2017 2018 the year that a good pitching prospect is truly blocked by 5 good pitchers in the starting rotation? 

Offseason (noun) - a time to propose trades assuming opposing GM's can't do the same basic analysis