Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Twins option Ryan LaMarre to AAA

ryan lamarre phil hughes
  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#81 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Anyone got a smoke?

  • Twins Mods
  • 21,455 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:53 AM

 

The best part (for me) is watching people - here and on my Facebook/Twitter feeds - get all worked up about LaMarre. I get great joy out of them trying to compare him to JD Martinez, quote his spring training stats, his "new approach" at the plate, and cite his ".500 batting average," while glossing over his entire career and the fact that he's also struck out 4 times this year.

 

Good times, indeed.

 

But, yes, he is the perfect 25th man - has options and contributes very little on the field so his absence is barely noticed. Could also hold down the fort on defense for a day until Granite could get to town.

For me, the perfect 25th man would contribute quite a bit on the field.

  • Mike Sixel, James, Riverbrian and 3 others like this

I am not the paranoid you're looking for.


#82 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:54 AM

 

Well, it appears Hughes will be there, so I don't know that the judgment can be overly positive.

 

Meh, is Hughes that much worse of a call the Mejia? I'd like to see Hughes get a shot. As long as the Twins have a quick hook with him and aren't giving him too much rope, I think the difference between Hughes or Mejia being the bridge to Santana is negligible. 


#83 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 26,481 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:56 AM

 

Meh, is Hughes that much worse of a call the Mejia? I'd like to see Hughes get a shot. As long as the Twins have a quick hook with him and aren't giving him too much rope, I think the difference between Hughes or Mejia being the bridge to Santana is negligible. 

 

One pitched pretty well last year, one did not. One is part of the future, possibly, one is not. I prefer One to one.

  • Danchat and jud6312 like this

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#84 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:00 AM

 

For me, the perfect 25th man would contribute quite a bit on the field.

 

At that point, doesn't he stop being the 25th man? 

 

A 25th man provides:

  • Pinch running late in game
  • Pinch hitting pop for late in a game
  • Occasional start in getaway game
  • Defensive replacement

The Twins don't need a defensive replacement in the OF. Lamarre doesn't have the pop but he's not bad for pinch running or the occasional start in a getaway game. 

 

I've seen people get worked up about Danny Santana or Florimon for years. Never makes much sense - the 25th man doesn't really matter. What matters more is the guy waiting in AAA who comes up if someone is actually hurt. That's Granite/Wade in the OF, Gordon in the IF and Who-Knows-What at C.

 

I think a fairer criticism might be Grossman. He had a great 2016 and an okay 2017 but has started slow this year. Small sample but if he's more 2017 than 2016 by mid-June, the Twins might have to think about hitting the trade market for a better 4th RH hitting 4th OF. That's not a big problem - guys like that never cost much and are usually veterans who can bolster the clubhouse.

  • WLFINN likes this

#85 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:03 AM

 

One pitched pretty well last year, one did not. One is part of the future, possibly, one is not. I prefer One to one.

 

The odds of Mejia really being a part of the future is pretty low though. With Romero, Gonsalves, Jorge and Thorpe in the minors plus Pineda, Santana, Odorizzi and Berrios at the MLB level next year, Mejia seems like minor league depth. Not ragging on him, I love having a guy like Mejia in that role. But his upside is maybe a #4 starter. Seems like we overstate Mejia a bit.

 

Hughes has worked hard to get back to the ML level. There's a value to demonstrating that you'll stick by veterans who work hard. Hughes is well-liked in the clubhouse. If they were blocking Romero, I'd get the  argument. But giving Hughes a start or two over a 6th/7th starter like Mejia seems pretty defensible. 

Edited by ThejacKmp, 16 April 2018 - 11:05 AM.


#86 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:05 AM

 

Talking about something is literally NOT equivalent to getting worked up about it, or angsting about it, or freaking out about it......

 

I'm constantly amazed on this site, when people have a conversation about something, that so many people think there are HUGE emotions tied up in something, when really, there aren't for most of us (as far as I can tell). It's just a conversation.

 

Agree. But I think you know as well as I do that often people do get worked up - it's not a conversation, it's an argument. I think that's when saying "worked up" is a fair characterization.


#87 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 26,481 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:05 AM

 

The odds of Mejia really being a part of the future is pretty low though. With Romero, Gonsalves, Jorge and Thorpe in the minors plus Pineda, Santana, Odorizzi and Berrios at the MLB level next year, Mejia seems like minor league depth. Not ragging on him, I love having a guy like Mejia in that role. But his upside is maybe a #4 starter. Seems like getting worked up about something small.

 

Hughes has worked hard to get back to the ML level. There's a value to demonstrating that you'll stick by veterans who work hard. Hughes is well-liked in the clubhouse. If they were blocking Romero, I'd get the  argument. But giving Hughes a start or two over a 6th/7th starter like Mejia seems pretty defensible. 

 

 

 

There is value in playing the best players, and rewarding the good ones for their hard work (I'm assuming Mejia is also a hard worker), over keeping a guy around because of money.

Edited by Mike Sixel, 16 April 2018 - 11:06 AM.

  • jud6312 and bighat like this

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#88 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,555 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:08 AM

The odds of Mejia really being a part of the future is pretty low though. With Romero, Gonsalves, Jorge and Thorpe in the minors plus Pineda, Santana, Odorizzi and Berrios at the MLB level next year, Mejia seems like minor league depth. Not ragging on him, I love having a guy like Mejia in that role. But his upside is maybe a #4 starter. Seems like we overstate Mejia a bit.

Hughes has worked hard to get back to the ML level. There's a value to demonstrating that you'll stick by veterans who work hard. Hughes is well-liked in the clubhouse. If they were blocking Romero, I'd get the argument. But giving Hughes a start or two over a 6th/7th starter like Mejia seems pretty defensible.


He had a league average ERA his rookie year.
If he can learn how to go longer in games, he can easily be a #3 (league average, by definition), without much improvement.

Mejia has both a higher floor and a higher ceiling than Jorge, IMO, not sure why he's even in the conversation for guys ahead of Mejia.

#89 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:10 AM

 

There is value in playing the best players, and rewarding the good ones for their hard work (I'm assuming Mejia is also a hard worker), over keeping a guy around because of money.

 

Absolutely value in getting young guys up too, they bring an energy. And I'm sure Mejia works hard too. 

Still think there's a value in demonstrating that a guy who works incredibly hard to come back from multiple injuries will get a shot. They did it with Nolasco and Perkins last year and I thought that was classy of them. As classy as Hughes not getting that extra 1/3 of an inning. 

 

Big question is: How much better is Mejia than Hughes? I think that's a fair question because we have no idea what Hughes is at this point in time. All we've seen are minor league starts and even then, we don't really know if Hughes was working on something specific or pitching an MLB-like start. I'd like to see what Hughes has left in the tank just to know. That way the Twins can make a decision to move him to the pen, where I could see him being an okay middle reliever. 

  • bighat likes this

#90 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:18 AM

 

He had a league average ERA his rookie year.
If he can learn how to go longer in games, he can easily be a #3 (league average, by definition), without much improvement.

Mejia has both a higher floor and a higher ceiling than Jorge, IMO, not sure why he's even in the conversation for guys ahead of Mejia.

 

He also stands to suffer when teams start to concentrate on him in film. Kind of like Duffey, who proved unable to sustain his start because teams figured out he only had two pitches and they could key on one. I'd bet on Mejia being more #6 starter than #3 starter but hope for the latter obviously. He is only 24 but his stuff isn't amazing so he'll have to figure out how to stop walking guys. 

 

Jorge has better stuff than Mejia. Mejia has had middling K rates throughout the minors while Jorge in the low-minors had relatively high K rates. Jorge may end up in the pen but he's got a higher ceiling if he can put everything together. I'd say he's much more likely to be a #3 starter while Mejia is more likely to be a good #5 starter.

 

P.S. I really disagree with the idea that a #3 starter is by definition a league average starter. I think that's way too simplistic. The Cubs #3 starter is Hendricks, he isn't a league average starter. The Marlins #3 starter might not start on any other team. To me, a #3 is a guy you'd be okay starting in game 3 of a division playoff series. The Twins have had a lot of years with four or five #4 or #5 starters.


#91 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 26,481 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:19 AM

It's reasonable to want to see Hughes.....I think it is also reasonable to not to want to. I guess we'll find out soonish...

  • jud6312 likes this

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#92 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Anyone got a smoke?

  • Twins Mods
  • 21,455 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:26 AM

 

At that point, doesn't he stop being the 25th man? 

 

A 25th man provides:

  • Pinch running late in game
  • Pinch hitting pop for late in a game
  • Occasional start in getaway game
  • Defensive replacement

The Twins don't need a defensive replacement in the OF. Lamarre doesn't have the pop but he's not bad for pinch running or the occasional start in a getaway game. 

 

I've seen people get worked up about Danny Santana or Florimon for years. Never makes much sense - the 25th man doesn't really matter. What matters more is the guy waiting in AAA who comes up if someone is actually hurt. That's Granite/Wade in the OF, Gordon in the IF and Who-Knows-What at C.

 

I think a fairer criticism might be Grossman. He had a great 2016 and an okay 2017 but has started slow this year. Small sample but if he's more 2017 than 2016 by mid-June, the Twins might have to think about hitting the trade market for a better 4th RH hitting 4th OF. That's not a big problem - guys like that never cost much and are usually veterans who can bolster the clubhouse.

I don't agree that the "25th guy" is only there to provide pinch hitting/pinch running, and a useless place holder for getaway day games.

 

For one thing, teams only carry 12 or 13 players, so the term "25th guy" isn't even really that accurate. Smart GMs squeeze as much value as possible out of each of those 12 or 13 guys.

 

 A dangerous RH hitter, who could spell the corner OFers and occasionally DH against a LH starter, would provide much, much more on field help than someone who only pinch hits/pinch runs. And there's no reason a good bat couldn't do both of those things, too.

 

It's a long season. Squeezing a little extra talent onto the roster will pay off. 

  • Riverbrian, snepp, KirbyDome89 and 1 other like this

I am not the paranoid you're looking for.


#93 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:55 AM

 

I don't agree that the "25th guy" is only there to provide pinch hitting/pinch running, and a useless place holder for getaway day games.

 

For one thing, teams only carry 12 or 13 players, so the term "25th guy" isn't even really that accurate. Smart GMs squeeze as much value as possible out of each of those 12 or 13 guys.

 

 A dangerous RH hitter, who could spell the corner OFers and occasionally DH against a LH starter, would provide much, much more on field help than someone who only pinch hits/pinch runs. And there's no reason a good bat couldn't do both of those things, too.

 

It's a long season. Squeezing a little extra talent onto the roster will pay off. 

 

Yeah, that would be nice. Two ways to get that in April:

 

1) From within. The Twins don't have this player. And even if you did, it'd have to hit a pretty narrow range. You need someone who wouldn't benefit from regular playing time in the minors but who doesn't provide so much value that you're wasting them in the majors and should think about trading them. Easier said than done and we can just magic that player into being. If Granite hit RH he might be an approximation of this (minus the pop). 

 

2) Free agent. Youngish power-hitting free agent outfielders don't sign on to become 4th OFers, they look for a starting job or a place with a platoon (like Carols Gomez signing for $4 million in Tampa). So you're not getting someone with upside. You're going to get someone older on the downswing. And you're going to have to pay a decent amount because those guys have made money and they aren't coming back for the minimum. And if you get an old guy you likely sacrifice your speed/base running. An example might have been Jose Bautista but you'd have to pay him at least $5 million and you run the risk of him sucking. 

 

That's why you end up with the Lamarre types. And sometimes they work out. See Grossman, Robbie in 2016. Sometimes they don't but they didn't cost you much. And that leads you to the time to upgrade this spot . . .

 

the deadline. By midseason, struggling teams are looking to deal their veteran power bats to save money, free up space for their young prospects and maybe get a lottery ticket in the process. And players who would not have signed on to be a 4th OF in the offseason are okay moving to a team with playoff hopes. 

 

I get being upset if Lamarre is hitting poorly and is still the Twins 25th guy in August or October. But in April, he's as good a bet as anybody, especially with that option that allows you to have some flexibility. 

 

I look at this (http://www.espn.com/...s/_/position/of) and I don't see anyone I'm sad the Twins missed out on. Thoughts? Is there someone you think the Twins could and should have signed this offseason?

  • Twins33, SwainZag, WLFINN and 1 other like this

#94 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:56 AM

 

I don't agree that the "25th guy" is only there to provide pinch hitting/pinch running, and a useless place holder for getaway day games.

 

For one thing, teams only carry 12 or 13 players, so the term "25th guy" isn't even really that accurate. Smart GMs squeeze as much value as possible out of each of those 12 or 13 guys.

 

 A dangerous RH hitter, who could spell the corner OFers and occasionally DH against a LH starter, would provide much, much more on field help than someone who only pinch hits/pinch runs. And there's no reason a good bat couldn't do both of those things, too.

 

It's a long season. Squeezing a little extra talent onto the roster will pay off. 

 

Also, this would totally be a different question for an NL team. With pitchers hitting and double switches, the 25th man is super important. If the Twins were in the NL, you'd certainly see Granite or maybe even Gordon on the team. They'd get enough at bats to justify having them on the squad. Ryan Lamarre wouldn't stand a chance. Adrianza would be more valuable because he can play corner OF as well as IF.


#95 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:01 PM

 

while glossing over his entire career and the fact that he's also struck out 4 times this year.

 

I mean, his BABIP is 1.000. He literally never makes contact and doesn't get a hit.


#96 yarnivek1972

yarnivek1972

    Minnesota Twins

  • Members
  • 3,951 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:16 PM

No problem with the Lamarre moves. Makes sense to get an extra pitcher for the Puerto Rico series and Lamarre is the obvious candidate to do it. That's what being the 25th guy on the roster is about.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Buesnitz/Moya when Lamarre is done with his ten days and can come back. I wouldn't be surprised to see Moya head down and Buesnitz stay. The Twins could use some depth with Hildy and Duke being a little erratic. Allows Molitor to have a quick pull with them.

Not going to judge this till we see who's on the team in NYC.


Sooner or later the weather will improve. June is the latest forecast.

Anyway, the Twins will need a 5th starter eventually. I certainly hope the Twins don’t intend to carry 13 pitchers all year just on the slim chance Kinley pans out. The reward isn’t worth the risk of burning out the bullpen.
  • DocBauer likes this

#97 KirbyDome89

KirbyDome89

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Members
  • 1,524 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:28 PM

 

I'd agree this is on the front office...Many of us called all winter for the front office to find a RH hitting 4th OFer.

 

But I don't think Ryan LaMarre is that guy. He's never hit, anywhere. ANYwhere. Personally I'm glad the manager seems to understand a handful of ABs doesn't negate years of history. 

I was on that train this winter. I wasn't a big fan of LaMarre making the team out of ST either, but the FO stuck him there. 

 

For me at least it isn't so much about believing LaMarre is a legitimate 4th/5th OFer, rather it's about giving him the opportunity to prove he isn't. They were willing to force him onto the 25 man because of the ST he had and if that's the case then they might as well at least try to figure out what he can actually do. I'm not saying he needs to be playing every day, but if they were confident enough to give him a roster spot I'm not sure why there's hesitation to let him have a short audition. 

 

Overall I completely agree with you that the 25th man shouldn't be a pinch runner/filler guy. You're right, the Twins will only carry 12-13 position players, two of which are catchers so in reality they're looking at 2-3 actual bench players. They need to be more than an occasional pinch hitter/runner or late inning defensive replacement. I don't think LaMarre is one of the 2-3 guys, but I also think continuing to carry him while refusing to play him is worse than finding out he isn't. 

  • USAFChief, Riverbrian, DocBauer and 1 other like this

#98 Jham

Jham

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 1,648 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:03 PM

He had a league average ERA his rookie year.
If he can learn how to go longer in games, he can easily be a #3 (league average, by definition), without much improvement.

Mejia has both a higher floor and a higher ceiling than Jorge, IMO, not sure why he's even in the conversation for guys ahead of Mejia.


A number 3 isn't league average by definition. Twins started what 16 different pitchers last year? The majority of starting pitchers are bottom of the rotation, depth or swing man types, imo. Any pitcher that holds down a consistent rotation turn as a 3 is probably better than league average. Not saying Mejia can't get there, but he's got work to do with men on and past 2x through the order.
  • Sconnie likes this

#99 ThejacKmp

ThejacKmp

    Wing Commander

  • Members
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:13 PM

 

Sooner or later the weather will improve. June is the latest forecast.

Anyway, the Twins will need a 5th starter eventually. I certainly hope the Twins don’t intend to carry 13 pitchers all year just on the slim chance Kinley pans out. The reward isn’t worth the risk of burning out the bullpen.

 

You can carry Kinley. You just can't carry Kinley and Moya if you're afraid to use either one. Kinley can be a long-relief/14th inning guy. But Molly either needs to start trusting Moya or find someone else (Buesnitz, Duffey etc.) who he does trust.

 

I'd love to see what Curtiss can do too.

Edited by ThejacKmp, 16 April 2018 - 01:16 PM.

  • Twins33 and DocBauer like this

#100 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 18,895 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:16 PM

I mean, his BABIP is 1.000. He literally never makes contact and doesn't get a hit.

This season. Pfft.

 

For a career, if I used b-r.com's Play Index feature correctly, a current pitcher named Jesse Chavez holds the record for plate appearances while maintaining a pure 1.000 BABIP. Unsurprisingly, his 20 PA have been accounted for via 1 base hit, 4 sacrifice bunts (which do not count in BABIP despite being technically "in play"), and 15 strikeouts.

 

When you think about it a second, an NL-style relief pitcher stands out as the right candidate, and Chavez's only starts have been in the AL.

 

He's 34 now. Here's hoping Jesse doesn't spoil things by grounding out a nubber to the first baseman to close his career.

 

You want a position player? Try third baseman Fred Graf. In his one season with the Browns in 1913, he OPS'ed 1.225 and his BABIP the whole season was 1.000. Only 9 PA, but hey. He holds the career record.

  • ThejacKmp and snepp like this

Modesty, n.: Being comfortable that others will discover your greatness.




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: ryan lamarre, phil hughes