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Article: MIN 7, PIT 3: Rosario Sparks Comeback, Inspires Some Head-Scratching

eddie rosario miguel sano brian dozier jake odorizzi trevor hildenberger
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#21 tarheeltwinsfan

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:16 AM

 

 Sano admitted to running through the stop sign. He also said "People say I'm fat, but I'm not. I'm quick." I like that :)

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#22 ThejacKmp

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:40 AM

 

Give me one reason for not running everything out? But then maybe that's just me.

 

What are the odds that someone tweaks a hamstring running hard to first? Are those odds higher on a day where it's 30 degrees out? Are those odds higher than the likelihood that an MLB player will miss a popup in front of the plate?

 

I don't know those numbers but it's not a simple matter of "run hard on everything". I don't want Sano busting ass down first base on a routine grounder to second. I want him moving at 3/4 speed and making sure he's available when I need him with two guys on in the 7th. If it's Nick Punto, get your butt down that line.


#23 ThejacKmp

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:41 AM

 

That was definitely not intentional.

 

In a postgame interview on FSN (available on their Twitter, but I don't have the ability to post a link right now), Sano admitted to running through the stop sign. He also said "People say I'm fat, but I'm not. I'm quick." I like that :)

 

I like it too. I don't like Sano running through stop signs. It will not usually work out.


#24 ThejacKmp

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:43 AM

 

That was definitely not intentional.

 

 

I dunno, Eddie seems like the kind of guy who might have thought through "I have a right to stay in this box, I can get in the way." It's actually not a bad baseball move to teach your players - you have a right to that spot and if you can legally make things better for your team, go ahead.

 

It did really look like he was almost trying to get in the way of the catcher.

Edited by ThejacKmp, 05 April 2018 - 08:43 AM.


#25 SQUIRREL

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:45 AM

 

I don't expect him to hustle to first on that play, but even if he was at the very least "dogging" it, he's probably safe. Any effort toward first base would have been nice, even if it was merely at a Miguel Sano homer trot pace.

He knows he did wrong. You see him in the dugout afterwards hitting himself in the head as if you say, 'You goofed.' Let's hope he doesn't do that again. It was not good. I actually think that's worse than the pick-off.

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#26 ashbury

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:03 AM

That was definitely not intentional.

 

In a postgame interview on FSN (available on their Twitter, but I don't have the ability to post a link right now), Sano admitted to running through the stop sign. He also said "People say I'm fat, but I'm not. I'm quick." I like that :)

I think it was more complicated than that. Glynn's signalling perhaps was momentarily inconsistent, because Sano inexplicably started pulling up while halfway between second and third. If Glynn was windmilling to indicate a dash for home was still possible, then had to switch to a stop sign a millisecond later than he could have, confusion may have entered in, causing a further hesitation on Sano's part and then a belated decision to go for it. As the final outcome proved, the stop sign never was absolutely necessary in terms of being able to make it (maybe, with only 1 out, caution still was advisable), and Sano going all out once past second base would have scored easily. Not good, and you'd like for all concerned to process the emerging information just a little better, but perhaps not simply a willful ignoring of a stop sign.

 

The video unfortunately doesn't show enough of Glynn, but at the 0:53 mark you see the left hand up for Stop and the right arm pointing Home. I'm trying to make sense of that. Blyleven's saying Glynn is pointing to the cutoff man, but maybe that's too complicated a signal for the situation.

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#27 Mike Sixel

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:08 AM

Nope, it's actually about the same thing. If anything, the routine grounder has a better chance of hopping weird and causing a bobble. That popup is caught just about every time. Four guys could have caught it. And what's the difference between not running at all and jogging? Neither one changes the result if a miscue is made.

I can think of several reasons that Eddie gets blamed more than a Brian Dozier. One is the young guy vs. veteran thing (though really, we should blame the vet more since he should know better). More controversially, I think race and ethnicity plays a role. I'm not sure we want to descend down this path too far but there are stereotypes about Latino players that come into play, often subconsciously.

This may be a poor place to take this and I apologize in advance if anyone gets offended but I think it's better to talk about the elephant in the room than ignore it.


So far this year, Eddie has turned a routine fly into a double, slid feet first into first, did not leave the batters box, and tried to get picked off. In less than ten games. This is not about race for me. It's that it happens over and over. How is that even a question?
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#28 Andrew Thares

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:10 AM

 

Reed only pitched 1 inning so he is definitely available for an inning today.With the day off tomorrow he could even be available for 2 innings today.

But he also threw 29 pitches over an inning and a third on Monday. That's 47 pitches over the past three days. I highly doubt that he is available for 2 innings today.


#29 ThejacKmp

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:41 AM

 

So far this year, Eddie has turned a routine fly into a double, slid feet first into first, did not leave the batters box, and tried to get picked off. In less than ten games. This is not about race for me. It's that it happens over and over. How is that even a question?

 

  • We talking about the Berrios game? That was not a routine fly ball. It was slicing away on a cold and windy day and it hit the wall. Not a gimme. He could make that but better OF than Rosario have missed that ball.
  • No one should slide into first, but feet first is probably smarter. And many people think it is charming when Dozier or Punto do the way more stupid headfirst slide.
  • He didn't try to get picked off. That's ludicrous. It was a nice move and he got caught leaning. And he was called safe.

This is why I think race/youth plays a role in this. Dozier slides headfirst into first, doesn't run out groundballs, swings at bad pitches and no one bats an eye. Rosario does it and it confirms what we already know about him and we tweak. 

 

 


#30 Mike Sixel

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:59 AM

 

 

  • We talking about the Berrios game? That was not a routine fly ball. It was slicing away on a cold and windy day and it hit the wall. Not a gimme. He could make that but better OF than Rosario have missed that ball.
  • No one should slide into first, but feet first is probably smarter. And many people think it is charming when Dozier or Punto do the way more stupid headfirst slide.
  • He didn't try to get picked off. That's ludicrous. It was a nice move and he got caught leaning. And he was called safe.

This is why I think race/youth plays a role in this. Dozier slides headfirst into first, doesn't run out groundballs, swings at bad pitches and no one bats an eye. Rosario does it and it confirms what we already know about him and we tweak. 

 

 

That fly ball had a 90% catch probability.

 

I don't think it's charming at all, I rip every player when they slide into first. Continuing this line is starting to look like you are calling me out specifically. I probably rip players for sliding into first more than anyone else here. It's not charming at all, nor have I ever read a single person say it was. 

 

"swings at bad pitches?" nice straw man.

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#31 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:37 AM

 

He knows he did wrong. You see him in the dugout afterwards hitting himself in the head as if you say, 'You goofed.' Let's hope he doesn't do that again. It was not good. I actually think that's worse than the pick-off.

 

I'm not sure how the pickoff even comes into play here. That stuff will happen, and a pitcher can fool a runner. Not saying it isn't heads up and cannot be corrected, but to me at least, that's a tradeoff for having someone who will be an aggressive base runner. 

 

As for not running out the pop up... yeah, no excuse. At the very least he should have been moving down the line. Even at a jog, he's safe or potentially forces an error. 

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#32 dbminn

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 11:10 AM

Twins won. Bullpen pitched great. Brian Dozier showed both power and his elite base running skills (considering his foot speed). Sano had more hits than Ks. Rosario had an adventure (great lede, Tom).I'll take it. 

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#33 KirbyDome89

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 11:16 AM

 

Yeah, I think my point would be that we fixate on Eddie and not on mistakes made by other players (Dozier, Kepler etc.)

 

I think there's a reason for that - confirmation bias (kind of like how when a young football player fumbles a few time, now everyone fixates on him fumbling and then defensive players go for the fumble more often because of that rep) and a bit of a racial bias (which I guess we need to take to the Sports Bar, whatever that is).

No, I get what you're saying but again, Eddie has earned the reputation that he has. I don't think anybody has trouble criticizing Dozier, Mauer, Kepler, ect. for questionable decisions on the field. The point I made was that Eddie makes those questionable decisions much more frequently, and so of course he's going to receive a disproportionate amount of criticism for doing so. IMO it starts and stops there. 

 

I can live with physical errors. Bad routes on fly balls and wild throws are going to happen from time to time. It's the mental mistakes that drive me nuts. Eddie has all the talent in the world but at times he's just so unaware of situations. He has played enough ball to this point where the mental errors are inexcusable.

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#34 SQUIRREL

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 12:29 PM

 

I'm not sure how the pickoff even comes into play here. That stuff will happen, and a pitcher can fool a runner. Not saying it isn't heads up and cannot be corrected, but to me at least, that's a tradeoff for having someone who will be an aggressive base runner. 

 

As for not running out the pop up... yeah, no excuse. At the very least he should have been moving down the line. Even at a jog, he's safe or potentially forces an error. 

Yeah ... that's why I think the pop-up was a thing and I was less forgiving of the pick-off ... which ended up not being one, whether right or wrong.

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#35 USAFChief

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 12:42 PM

On a positive note, Hildenberger looked a little better than he has, IMO.

 

I'm nervous about him, but that was encouraging.

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#36 Kelly Vance

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 07:19 PM

As a former coach (and third base coach) I offer these observations. 

Eddie is not dissed because of his skin color. His skin color has nothing to do with 27 homers and all those throw outs in his rookie year. He is still a raw talent. He is not afraid to throw the runner out at the plate, and we love that. But he is an instinctive player, and those guys make mistakes. Still in all, I want that kind of guy on my team. 

 

Miggie runs through a stop sign. (Nobody suggests that he did that because he was black. Or did they and I missed it?)  He has up a head of steam, and went with his instinct. I like the desire and hustle. If I'm coaching third, I am pissed he runs through. But when he is safe, nobody grins bigger than me. Then I tell him "Don't ever do that again." But my takeaway is I am glad that Miggie wants to win. 


#37 ThejacKmp

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:19 PM

 

That fly ball had a 90% catch probability.

 

I don't think it's charming at all, I rip every player when they slide into first. Continuing this line is starting to look like you are calling me out specifically. I probably rip players for sliding into first more than anyone else here. It's not charming at all, nor have I ever read a single person say it was. 

 

"swings at bad pitches?" nice straw man.

 

Are you quoting a stat or is that a fact? I find it hard to believe that any ball hit 20 feet over someone's head to the fence has a 90% catch rate. Do I think he should have caught it? Yes, mostly because I think he's got above average range for left. But am I going to count it against him? No, that was a tough enough catch that missing it while crashing into the wall is okay.

 

I'm also saying that sliding into first is stupid no matter who does it, feet or face first. I'm just adding the context that Dozier has done that several times in the past as well and no one harps on that or brings it up when talking about Dozier.

 

Swing at bad pitches isn't directed at you, not everything is about you? Not everything is a one-on-one discussion. I see people complaining about Rosario's pitch selection on TD a lot, just adding that in. He swings at some bad pitches. So does every Twin not named Mauer. 

 

Not sure why you're taking this personally, I didn't even know who I was responding to.


#38 ThejacKmp

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:24 PM

 

No, I get what you're saying but again, Eddie has earned the reputation that he has. I don't think anybody has trouble criticizing Dozier, Mauer, Kepler, ect. for questionable decisions on the field. The point I made was that Eddie makes those questionable decisions much more frequently, and so of course he's going to receive a disproportionate amount of criticism for doing so. IMO it starts and stops there. 

 

I can live with physical errors. Bad routes on fly balls and wild throws are going to happen from time to time. It's the mental mistakes that drive me nuts. Eddie has all the talent in the world but at times he's just so unaware of situations. He has played enough ball to this point where the mental errors are inexcusable.

 

See and I think I would disagree that Eddie does this much more than other players. I think we just focus on it more because of a narrative we've built.

 

Buxton and Dozier are two players I would argue make equally bad decisions but don't get called out on it as much. Buxton's arm is great in theory but he makes some terrible throws home and to bases. Lots of overthrowing and three bounce throws. And terrible pitch selection and situational hitting. Dozier is a great team leader but he's another guy swinging for the fences in bad situations. Another guy who makes some bad decision on steal attempts (though admittedly, it's hard to tell what is him and what is the coaches) and who has issues with running out balls and making "fake hustle" plays.

 

P.S. Sano's base running is often terrible. He runs through signs way too often and we excuse it because it's funny that a big guy is running through signs. But we hold him to a different standard. And that's my overall point -- we have developed a narrative where every bad Rosario decision is magnified unfairly because it fits that narrative.


#39 Tom Froemming

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 07:05 AM

There's already been a really good "Race and Rosario" discussion going on in The Sports Bar, let's keep it over there. 

 

http://twinsdaily.co...ce-and-rosario/

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#40 jimmer

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 07:23 AM

Are you quoting a stat or is that a fact? I find it hard to believe that any ball hit 20 feet over someone's head to the fence has a 90% catch rate. Do I think he should have caught it? Yes, mostly because I think he's got above average range for left. But am I going to count it against him? No, that was a tough enough catch that missing it while crashing into the wall is okay.

statcast had it at a 90% catchable rate. I am guessing that is where his number came from.

Edited by jimmer, 06 April 2018 - 07:26 AM.




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