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To bunt, or not to bunt? That is the question.

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#101 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 04:11 PM

I'm not going to defend my position, because I've clearly stated what my position is.


I wasn't asking you to defend anything.
I was asking you to expand on your position.
Surely you have reasons why you don't think players should bunt if a pitcher has a no hitter. I'm curious what those reasons are.

#102 Blake

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 07:56 PM

 

I wasn't asking you to defend anything.
I was asking you to expand on your position.
Surely you have reasons why you don't think players should bunt if a pitcher has a no hitter. I'm curious what those reasons are.

Fair enough.

 

I did not say "no bunting with a no hitter under no circumstances."

 

I stated the unwritten rules of no bunt are fine, providing the hitter is being played straight up. However, if the hitter is trying to hit against a shift, by all means lay down the bunt.

 

The unwritten rules date back to before shifts became as prevalent as they are now. Baseball has long had those unwritten rules that everyone knew about and played by. I happen to like those traditions and I believe they have a place in baseball.  

 

However, that tradition is being turned on its head with all the shifts that are being used.

 

So, if teams want to remain true to the unwritten rule, then they need to play the hitter straight up and not shift in the ninth inning.

 

If a team wants to shift, then all bets are off in regards to the no bunt to break up the no-hitter.


#103 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 08:41 PM

I'm aware that the unwritten rule exists.
I was curious if you had specific reasons for agreeing with it.

#104 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:55 PM

 

Personally I think it would be a lot easier to get a hitter to hit the ball the other way than to bunt.Bunting, especially with a slugger who likely hasn't practiced.....ever, is so unnatural to your regular hitting approach.Standing at a completely different angle, opening yourself up and a 100% different motion .If you think hitting a major league slider was hard, now imagine trying to bunt it.Slapping or check swinging would in theory be a lot more natural and would generally cut down on the pop ups to the catcher and pitcher. 

I disagree. Laying down a good bunt against a straight-up defense is a challenge and certainly takes time to practice and hone the skill.

 

But against the shift, all you need to do is keep the ball left of the pitcher and bunt the damned ball as hard as you can.

 

Most of the nuance of a traditional "good bunt" doesn't exist when bunting against a shift. In fact, you want the opposite effect against a shift (bunt hard versus practicing making the ball die in the grass 20-30 feet from the plate). When bunting against a shift, you want the ball to roll as far as possible as quickly as possible. If the defense is radically shifted, there's a chance you get two bases if it reaches the outfield grass.

 

Is doing that easy? Eh, I hesitate to call anything at the MLB level "easy" but holding out a bat, putting wood on the ball, and hitting it in a specific direction isn't the most challenging skill to learn.

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#105 Nine of twelve

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 08:29 PM

I disagree. Laying down a good bunt against a straight-up defense is a challenge and certainly takes time to practice and hone the skill.
 
But against the shift, all you need to do is keep the ball left of the pitcher and bunt the damned ball as hard as you can.
 
Most of the nuance of a traditional "good bunt" doesn't exist when bunting against a shift. In fact, you want the opposite effect against a shift (bunt hard versus practicing making the ball die in the grass 20-30 feet from the plate). When bunting against a shift, you want the ball to roll as far as possible as quickly as possible. If the defense is radically shifted, there's a chance you get two bases if it reaches the outfield grass.
 
Is doing that easy? Eh, I hesitate to call anything at the MLB level "easy" but holding out a bat, putting wood on the ball, and hitting it in a specific direction isn't the most challenging skill to learn.

Yes. When bunting toward third base against a standard defensive alignment you want the ball to stop very close to the line, about equidistant from the pitcher and the third baseman. Against the shift you want it to be hit hard enough to get past the point where the pitcher can field it.

#106 old nurse

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:10 PM

 

I think we're seeing a new generation of players that is willing to embrace the simplicity and fun of the game.I hope it pays off for baseball like I think it will.  

 

The outcry against Dozier's remarks are a good sign of that IMO.  

the simplicity they seek is elevate and celebrate

 


#107 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 11:25 AM

Just in case you thought this issue had reached it's low point....


#108 bunt_vs_the_shift

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 11:33 AM

I have no opinion on this topic

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#109 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 11:56 AM

 

Just in case you thought this issue had reached it's low point....

 

To be fair, that no-hitter, from a combined 4 pitchers, probably would have been the crowning sports accomplishment of the city of Hartford, including when the Whalers played there. What could have been, I mean can't you just picture it on a sign outside of town?

 

Welcome to Hartford, Home of Four Pitchers Who Combined to No Hit the Yankees Double A Affiliate

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#110 ashbury

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 03:12 PM

Just in case you thought this issue had reached it's low point....

We appear to have moved forward from the unwritten rules, to the untweeted rules.

 

Rising fastballs thrown behind the batter, and takeout slides with spikes high, were so passe anyway. Now it's some rando with a keyboard.

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#111 Nine of twelve

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 04:16 PM

I said something similar to this on another thread but I think it bears repeating. Context matters. If the game is close and late a batter should do what he and his manager feel is appropriate for the situation. If baserunners are needed and a bunt is a way to get a man on base then do it. I see that the game in question was a 3-0 game and in my mind that's close. The question of whether to bunt or not should be approached from the standpoint that there is a 3-run deficit, not from the standpoint that there is a no-hitter. If the bunt breaks up a no-hitter that's just collateral damage.

I seem to recall a game in which Tony LaRussa was managing the Cardinals, and one of his players stole a base in the third or fourth inning with a big lead. There were hard feelings at the time, but as it turned out the opponents came back to make it a close game at the end. LaRussa was asked about the sportsmanship of stealing a base with a big lead and he said something to the effect that if the other team had agreed to stop trying to win the game then he would have too.

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#112 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 05:33 PM

Im not sure context matters either. Just play baseball until the game is over by the written rules.
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#113 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 10:59 PM

If the trailing team has to play by a stricter set of rules to protect the other team’s pride, might as well just call the game after 8 innings during a no hitter so as to ensure there’s no hurt feelings.
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#114 Platoon

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 05:53 AM

The 4 man no no muted the whole issue. But no matter the rules, unwritten or not, if the defensive team is in a shift, then those rules are off the table. Bunt! If they don't want you to bunt, put someone at third base! :)
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#115 TheLeviathan

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 07:58 AM

 

If the trailing team has to play by a stricter set of rules to protect the other team’s pride, might as well just call the game after 8 innings during a no hitter so as to ensure there’s no hurt feelings.

 

I've long said, if you think a certain deficit becomes insulting - institute a mercy rule.In lieu of that....play the game.

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#116 gil4

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 08:51 AM

 

As they should, IMO. It's a great way to debunk the extreme shift strategy coaches implement against certain players.

I would hope players are able to swallow their pride if it means their batting average, OBP, and OPS increase by bunting.

I would hope our players do that. I hope the rest of the league keeps hitting ground balls into the shift. Unfortunately, the anecdotal evidence I have seen is that Cleveland has been bunting against the shift and the Twins haven't done it much.

Edited by gil4, 08 June 2019 - 08:51 AM.


#117 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 07:53 PM

 

I would hope our players do that. I hope the rest of the league keeps hitting ground balls into the shift. Unfortunately, the anecdotal evidence I have seen is that Cleveland has been bunting against the shift and the Twins haven't done it much.

 

I watched the Twins shift the Indians to the left side for every batter in the 1st inning last Tuesday. Not once did Cleveland bunt. 

 

My point is that my SSS eye test is probably yours too. I'd like to see the numbers to back that up please, and preferably 2019 numbers as the new FO has hired their in game guy now and largely has a staff that will execute what they want (and yes, I recognize that they would all be SSS at this point).

 

Setting that aside, I'm guessing the shift makes sense at various times, and if a team is willing to shift late game during a no hitter, they clearly want easier outs, which tells me it's close enough for a hitter to drop a bunt to the weak side as well. The other team wasn't coasting. So... more power to him. The game isn't over.

 

I like players that recognize that the game isn't over in the 8th or 9th innings... we had ones that didn't during our last run... and we lost a lot of playoff games.