Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

Recent Blogs

Photo

Steroids in your supplements?

  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 goulik

goulik

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,589 posts

Posted 19 March 2018 - 09:40 PM

I don't want this post to be about blaming or defending Jorge but about what could be solutions to a problem. I did a little looking and found a few tid bits about supplements that give me a little more sympathy for Jorge. First is this article. Sounds like we all need to pay more careful attention to what's going into our bodies.
https://www.labrada....ur-supplements/

I also found a comment that I cannot verify the validity on which stated that players have a list of companies they are encouraged to buy supplements from. That's a good idea...

Here's my thoughts based on this little information I've found.

First:
Minor league players are not paid much so they are going to look for ways to acquire things cheap. I'm confident things are cheaper in the DR than here and guys living there in the off season are going to be more likely to go local. These poorer minor leaguers are probably establishing bad habits in this area that may bite them in the behind when they're MLB players making enough money to avoid that.

Second:
Wouldn't MLB teams be wiser to offer the supplements directly year round just to protect their players at all levels? Choose a company, tell the players to order through the team, and we will ship it to you no charge because we want healthy, strong, clean athletes? I know I'm spending someone else's money on this one but that may be an important investment...

Edited by goulik, 19 March 2018 - 09:42 PM.

  • nicksaviking, PseudoSABR, Ben Noble and 3 others like this

#2 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,866 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 20 March 2018 - 10:28 AM

Wouldn't MLB teams be wiser to offer the supplements directly year round just to protect their players at all levels? Choose a company, tell the players to order through the team, and we will ship it to you no charge because we want healthy, strong, clean athletes? I know I'm spending someone else's money on this one but that may be an important investment...

Oscar Wilde had this quote defining a cynic: "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

 

You'd think Oscar had gotten his training as a student of the game of baseball. :)

Trust everybody ... then cut the cards.


#3 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 14,221 posts

Posted 20 March 2018 - 10:40 AM

"Hey, you got steroids in my supplements!"

"Hey, YOU got supplements in my steroids!"

  • Jerr, Mike Sixel, nicksaviking and 2 others like this

#4 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 27,322 posts

Posted 20 March 2018 - 10:43 AM

 

"Hey, you got steroids in my supplements!"

"Hey, YOU got supplements in my steroids!"

 

The old guy in the background is kind of creepy....

I remain hopeful on Buxton and Sano.....but I'd not bet the franchise on them.


#5 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    G.O.A.T.

  • Twins Mods
  • 12,564 posts
  • Locationthe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 20 March 2018 - 10:45 AM

 

I don't want this post to be about blaming or defending Jorge but about what could be solutions to a problem. I did a little looking and found a few tid bits about supplements that give me a little more sympathy for Jorge. First is this article. Sounds like we all need to pay more careful attention to what's going into our bodies.
https://www.labrada....ur-supplements/

I also found a comment that I cannot verify the validity on which stated that players have a list of companies they are encouraged to buy supplements from. That's a good idea...

Here's my thoughts based on this little information I've found.

First:
Minor league players are not paid much so they are going to look for ways to acquire things cheap. I'm confident things are cheaper in the DR than here and guys living there in the off season are going to be more likely to go local. These poorer minor leaguers are probably establishing bad habits in this area that may bite them in the behind when they're MLB players making enough money to avoid that.

Second:
Wouldn't MLB teams be wiser to offer the supplements directly year round just to protect their players at all levels? Choose a company, tell the players to order through the team, and we will ship it to you no charge because we want healthy, strong, clean athletes? I know I'm spending someone else's money on this one but that may be an important investment...

 

My understanding is that MLB has something like this in place already... I could be wrong there, but I thought that the union was working with MLB to do just that... and I thought that was done years ago.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but this is one big reason why I don't feel sorry for Jorge, even if it was an accident. Even if this didn't exist, he should know by now that he should be purchasing through reputable providers and not some place in the DR. Otherwise, all he's really looking for is someone to give him Manny's secret sauce without disclosing what is in the sauce. That's still juicing as far as I'm concerned, even if you have plausible deniability. 

  • nicksaviking, Blackjack and Dman like this

#6 spanman2

spanman2

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 197 posts

Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:07 AM

Don't take the supplement unless it is given to you by someone within the organization.Problem solved.I would be very surprised if MLB does not have approved products in play for teams to distribute to their players.If for some reason they don't then you ask the team trainer/Dr. etc. what is legal to take that is being sold in the supplement market.Certainly don't buy from someone as Jorge did.The odds of them being honest of what is in it or knowing with absolute certainty what MLB allows or does not allow is very low IMO. 

I WAS TOLD I WOULD NEVER MAKE IT BECAUSE I AM TOO SHORT. WELL, I'M STILL TOO SHORT. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOUR HEIGHT IS. IT'S WHAT'S IN YOUR HEART.

KIRBY PUCKETT

#7 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Billy G.O.A.T

  • Twins Mods
  • 12,782 posts

Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:10 AM

 

My understanding is that MLB has something like this in place already... I could be wrong there, but I thought that the union was working with MLB to do just that... and I thought that was done years ago.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but this is one big reason why I don't feel sorry for Jorge, even if it was an accident. Even if this didn't exist, he should know by now that he should be purchasing through reputable providers and not some place in the DR. Otherwise, all he's really looking for is someone to give him Manny's secret sauce without disclosing what is in the sauce. That's still juicing as far as I'm concerned, even if you have plausible deniability. 

 

Yeah, I thought players were able to get these things through the club from a league approved provider. I also thought that the MLBPA had a hotline players were supposed to call to reference anything of this nature they planned on ingesting.


#8 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 14,221 posts

Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:10 AM

My understanding is that MLB has something like this in place already... I could be wrong there, but I thought that the union was working with MLB to do just that... and I thought that was done years ago.


I would be very interested in that answer too. And I wonder what MLB would be offering (would they send B12 injections?).

#9 Eris

Eris

    Cedar Rapids

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:22 AM

Here is an article on the topic from the British Journal of Sports Medicine.Dietary supplements is for the most part an unregulated industry.There is mention in the linked article below (ref 34 from 2008 study involving Germany and Spain) that Vitamin C has been found to be cross-contaminated.

 

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/52/7/439

 

The USADA (anti doping agency) keeps a list of high risk supplements

https://www.usada.or...e-athlete-risk/

 

Also, I am curious is any athlete has successfully sued a supplement manufacture for damages.


#10 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 19,866 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:29 AM

snakes2.jpg

  • Mike Sixel and Sconnie like this

Trust everybody ... then cut the cards.


#11 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    G.O.A.T.

  • Twins Mods
  • 12,564 posts
  • Locationthe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 20 March 2018 - 01:15 PM

 

I would be very interested in that answer too. And I wonder what MLB would be offering (would they send B12 injections?).

Well, I'm sure it would not be free. Only thing I could see that could be in play is if the costs for this service are significantly high. That's going to hurt a minor leaguer making less than minimum wage, and even a guy like Jorge on the major league minimum may still be running on a personal budget (especially if he's taking care of family or has a litter of children with different women).But something like this could send B12 injections to say a doctor to administer, though any liability goes when they aren't using a team doctor. 

 

That would (at least partially) be on MLB... Personally, I would think these types of things teams would be happy to pay for simply to avoid what Jorge claims happened... Just as I'd be happy to feed/house my minor leaguers to ensure they are getting good nutrition/living conditions... But hey, what do I know?

  • spycake and goulik like this

#12 Sconnie

Sconnie

    Touch ‘em all!

  • Members
  • 3,874 posts
  • LocationNW Wisconsin

Posted 20 March 2018 - 07:20 PM

I never worked in supplements, but did work in food production and distribution that are both USDA and FDA regulated, as are supplements (organic supplements are both USDA and FDA regulated)

Supplements are definitely USDA and FDA regulated in the US. Of course supplements not manufactured or distributed in the US are not regulated by the FDA.

https://www.fda.gov/...arySupplements/

FDA regulation is not easy, neither is USDA. We also were a Kosher and AIB accredited plant, so we were inspected at least monthly by somebody. FDA typically inspected our plant annually on a schedule and annually on a surprise audit. Audits were rigorous, requiring receiving documents audits, shipping document audits, production reporting audits, inventory, recipes, samples and testing. There were 5 auditors in our plant for a couple weeks and then a follow up with findings, which is why we added the Kosher and AIB accreditation as it made us over-compliant with the government. Reminder, all producers and DISTRIBUTORS of supplements and ingredients in the US are subject to the FDA. The FDA goes so far as to inspect and sample at port of entry into the US. 1 in 5 receipts of imported dried lentils or beans (we made easy to prepare shelf stable entre’s) has a note of sample and how many pounds of samples they took from each bulk bag.

Now, back to the caveat.... USDA has no jurisdiction in the DR. Those supplements could have been sourced from anywhere. China is the “Wild Wild East” where anything goes. I once received a recall on Chinese baby formula that was cut with Melamine powder. They cut baby formula with fricken abrasives! Poor babies, that had to hurt! Point is, anything is possible, but unlikely here in the US. I don’t know anything about the rules in DR.

Important distinction regarding the FDA between supplements and medications. With supplements you don’t have to prove what the supplement does as long as your legalese on the advertising or package doesn’t make any false claims. It’s easy to skirt.

Edited by Sconnie, 20 March 2018 - 07:33 PM.

  • big dog likes this

#13 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    G.O.A.T.

  • Twins Mods
  • 12,564 posts
  • Locationthe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 21 March 2018 - 06:04 AM

 

I never worked in supplements, but did work in food production and distribution that are both USDA and FDA regulated, as are supplements (organic supplements are both USDA and FDA regulated)

Supplements are definitely USDA and FDA regulated in the US. Of course supplements not manufactured or distributed in the US are not regulated by the FDA.

https://www.fda.gov/...arySupplements/

FDA regulation is not easy, neither is USDA. We also were a Kosher and AIB accredited plant, so we were inspected at least monthly by somebody. FDA typically inspected our plant annually on a schedule and annually on a surprise audit. Audits were rigorous, requiring receiving documents audits, shipping document audits, production reporting audits, inventory, recipes, samples and testing. There were 5 auditors in our plant for a couple weeks and then a follow up with findings, which is why we added the Kosher and AIB accreditation as it made us over-compliant with the government. Reminder, all producers and DISTRIBUTORS of supplements and ingredients in the US are subject to the FDA. The FDA goes so far as to inspect and sample at port of entry into the US. 1 in 5 receipts of imported dried lentils or beans (we made easy to prepare shelf stable entre’s) has a note of sample and how many pounds of samples they took from each bulk bag.

Now, back to the caveat.... USDA has no jurisdiction in the DR. Those supplements could have been sourced from anywhere. China is the “Wild Wild East” where anything goes. I once received a recall on Chinese baby formula that was cut with Melamine powder. They cut baby formula with fricken abrasives! Poor babies, that had to hurt! Point is, anything is possible, but unlikely here in the US. I don’t know anything about the rules in DR.

Important distinction regarding the FDA between supplements and medications. With supplements you don’t have to prove what the supplement does as long as your legalese on the advertising or package doesn’t make any false claims. It’s easy to skirt.

 

My wife is on the drug side of that equation, working with the FDA with regards to drugs, blood products, and medical devices. Everything Sconnie noted in here is true. I'd note that Europe is even stricter than the US. 

 

As I said before, I can certainly see it being an accident on Polanco's part... not a smart accident, but not intentionally juicing. But that said, Polanco is responsible for this.

 

Whether intentional or not, he had a dozen ways to do this right. He has no one to blame but himself. 

  • Sconnie likes this

#14 Doug Y

Doug Y

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 21 March 2018 - 07:08 AM

I never worked in supplements, but did work in food production and distribution that are both USDA and FDA regulated, as are supplements (organic supplements are both USDA and FDA regulated)
Supplements are definitely USDA and FDA regulated in the US. Of course supplements not manufactured or distributed in the US are not regulated by the FDA.https://www.fda.gov/...arySupplements/
FDA regulation is not easy, neither is USDA. We also were a Kosher and AIB accredited plant, so we were inspected at least monthly by somebody. FDA typically inspected our plant annually on a schedule and annually on a surprise audit. Audits were rigorous, requiring receiving documents audits, shipping document audits, production reporting audits, inventory, recipes, samples and testing. There were 5 auditors in our plant for a couple weeks and then a follow up with findings, which is why we added the Kosher and AIB accreditation as it made us over-compliant with the government. Reminder, all producers and DISTRIBUTORS of supplements and ingredients in the US are subject to the FDA. The FDA goes so far as to inspect and sample at port of entry into the US. 1 in 5 receipts of imported dried lentils or beans (we made easy to prepare shelf stable entre’s) has a note of sample and how many pounds of samples they took from each bulk bag.
Now, back to the caveat.... USDA has no jurisdiction in the DR. Those supplements could have been sourced from anywhere. China is the “Wild Wild East” where anything goes. I once received a recall on Chinese baby formula that was cut with Melamine powder. They cut baby formula with fricken abrasives! Poor babies, that had to hurt! Point is, anything is possible, but unlikely here in the US. I don’t know anything about the rules in DR.
Important distinction regarding the FDA between supplements and medications. With supplements you don’t have to prove what the supplement does as long as your legalese on the advertising or package doesn’t make any false claims. It’s easy to skirt.



Supplements in the United States are not regulated the same way as drugs. You do not need USDA approval or FDA approval before the supplement goes on the market in the United States. There are just way too many supplements on the market and coming out of the market for either organization to take the time to approve them. Most supplement companies do not have the funds to do the necessary research and scientific studies that FDA approval would require like a drug. In the US, the only way the FDA or the USDA will look at a supplement and test it, is if they start getting complaints about the supplements. Then they will start an investigation. https://www.fda.gov/...arySupplements/

#15 big dog

big dog

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,860 posts

Posted 21 March 2018 - 07:11 AM

 


Now, back to the caveat.... USDA has no jurisdiction in the DR. Those supplements could have been sourced from anywhere. China is the “Wild Wild East” where anything goes. I once received a recall on Chinese baby formula that was cut with Melamine powder. They cut baby formula with fricken abrasives! Poor babies, that had to hurt! Point is, anything is possible, but unlikely here in the US. I don’t know anything about the rules in DR.

 

 

Melamine is used in certain plastics and fertilizers.Six babies died, and over 300,000 became ill.Two of those found guilty were executed and at least more received long prison sentences.

  • Sconnie likes this

#16 Parker Hageman

Parker Hageman

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,673 posts

Posted 21 March 2018 - 08:58 AM

That is true. There are studies dating back to 1999 and as recently as 2005 which have shown supplements have had steroids in them:

 

An international study performed in 2001 and 2002 on 634 nutritional supplements that were purchased in 13 different countries showed that about 15% of the nonhormonal nutritional supplements were contaminated with anabolic-androgenic steroids (mainly prohormones).

 

 

But that doesn't include Stanozolol. As far as Stanozolol goes, one study found some supplement products were "intentionally spiked" with steroids such as Stanozolol (as in, here's some over-the-counter weight gainer wink-wink). 

 

The New York Post had a good look at the B12/Stanozolol craze that happened two years ago. Former trainer and steroid pusher Kirk Radomski was highly skeptical of the idea that a company would spike a product with Stanozolol:

 

“Winstrol [Stanozolol] is not a cheap drug,” says Radomski, who now operates a supplement company called EPSG Labs. “I’ve been around 30 years and I’ve never heard of supplements spiked with Winstrol. I’ve heard of supplements spiked with Dianabol (a less-expensive steroid) and amphetamines. What is the bottom line for supplement companies? It’s to make money, and you don’t make money adding Winstrol to a supplement.”

 

{snip}

 

“My guess is somebody got around the players and said they had something that could beat a test, and it ended up having stanozolol in it,” says one source familiar with the underground doping world.

 

 

For those who have watched the documentary Icarus on Netflix (which you should watch if you have not), you should listen to Bryan Fogel's appearance on The Forward (Lance Armstrong's podcast). On it, Fogel talks more about how Russian anti doping lab director Grigory Rodchenkov was able to procure PEDs for the Olympic team. At one time, the Russians were buying steroids from China which had some of the purest/undetectable products available. Across the globe, his testing found that when they had tried to find similar steroids in other countries, often those supposedly designer steroids were tainted with older, more easily detectable steroids like Stanozolol.  

 

While I am not suggesting this is what Polanco or the other players did however you can see how there is a possibility that they thought were consuming something they believed was undetectable but ultimately wound up with a low-quality batch of steroids. 

  • goulik likes this

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." -- Jim Bouton, "Ball Four"