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Lynn, Morrison, Ryan, Falvey and Levine

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#21 old nurse

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 08:56 PM

 

Rodney is not a scrapheap guy and Sanchez wasn’t guaranteed an MLB contract.

Rodney at 4 million when closers are getting8 or more may not be scrap heap, but close enough. Same for Duke, Same for AybarPineda has a ton of potential that has not been seen for a few years before his last injury. Sanchez has a non guaranteed contract but a major league roster spot and will get a good chunk of change for being cut. . Lynn and Morrison are the value deals that Ryan would do.That leaves Reed.

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#22 Sconnie

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 09:14 PM

Ryan would sign players like Rodney and Duke. It’s questionable if he would have signed Reed, although he may have recognized the change in value for relievers and the relative bargain Reed offered.

It’s hard to know about Odorizzi, Morrison and Lynn. Ryan simply wasn’t faced with similar opportunities, particularly Lynn and Morrison. It would not have been that out of character to trade a mid-tier prospect for a starter like Odorizzi.

As to total quantity, it’s hard to know, because the relievers were earlier. Whether Ryan would have stopped then and not gotten the last three under any cost or if he would have recognized the unique opportunities, it’s hard to say.

Lynn could be Ervin Santana or Ricky Nolasco. Ryan just paid full price because he never had an offseason market like Falvine had. May never have that again.
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#23 old nurse

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 09:29 PM

 

Lynn could be Ervin Santana or Ricky Nolasco. Ryan just paid full price because he never had an offseason market like Falvine had. May never have that again.

Odorizzi could be Rick Reed

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#24 jokin

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:36 AM

 

I credit the Ryan regime for finding this current corps of talent; this group is very capable of winning the whole thing. On the other hand, it would have been out of character for Ryan to cut Plouffe or buy out Perkins, and those types of moves are also necessary to winning.

 

Cutting dead weight seemed to be a painful exercise for TR, one to be avoided or put off until tomorrow. But what about this.... How about during the Ryan rebuilding phase of just ONE trade in moving a significant veteran at peak value?

 

Major aspect of failure during the previous regime that would have accelerated the Twins much sooner out of this (mostly) lost decade.

Edited by jokin, 13 March 2018 - 02:38 AM.

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#25 howieramone2

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:38 AM

 

You have TR to thank for the fact that Phil Hughes had occupied a spot on the 40- and 25-man roster the past few seasons and will do so next season.

 

Ryan extended Hughes (and Capps and Pelfrey before him.) Ryan would had extended Mauer and Dozier already.

 

As far as the "Twins' young core" goes, other than Buxton and Berrios who were drafted in 2012, Polanco Sano, Kepler, and Rosario were signed and drafted when Bill Smith and not Terry Ryan was at helm.Just in case people forget...

Hughes had a very good first year and got an extension. That's a no-brainer. Enough of the hindsight. 

 

Just in case people forget, TR was in charge of IFA during the Bill Smith era, not to mention he pioneered the IFA initiative circa 2005 or 2006. 

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#26 howieramone2

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:47 AM

 

Cutting dead weight seemed to be a painful exercise for TR, one to be avoided or put off until tomorrow. But what about this.... How about during the Ryan rebuilding phase of just ONE trade in moving a significant veteran at peak value?

 

Major aspect of failure during the previous regime that would have accelerated the Twins much sooner out of this (mostly) lost decade.

He traded what he had to trade for Alex Meyer and Trevor May. In other words, the teardown was completed within months. Name a mid-market team that completed their rebuild faster than the Twins. No one has ever been able to do that.


#27 jokin

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:12 AM

 

He traded what he had to trade for Alex Meyer and Trevor May.

 

In other words, the teardown was completed within months.

 

Name a mid-market team that completed their rebuild faster than the Twins.

 

No one has ever been able to do that.

 

No. Not sure whether Span was traded at peak, Revere irrelevant.(You left out multiple obvious others)

 

No. The teardown continued for multiple years, with the team spinning its wheels when Ryan was canned.A true teardown would have meant that Mauer would have been persuaded to move to Boston in the multiple opportunities to move him there.

 

Many teams have rebuilt faster than KC or MN, historically speaking.

 

Wrong. Ryan was removed by ownership because it was obvious that the team was going nowhere through the never-ending recycling of retreads and deadenders and failures to capitalize on timely personnel moves on those with value... and he had failed to deliver on any of his goals, timelines or promises. And that he was working off a 20th Century script vs. a Brave New World of scores of Ivy League mathematics and physics majors- veritable rocket scientists with a scientific approach that both Ryan and Gardy never understood the implications of- and publicly disdained.

 

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#28 spycake

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:28 AM

Hughes had a very good first year and got an extension. That's a no-brainer. Enough of the hindsight.


Actually this offseason highlights the readily apparent problems with the Hughes extension. Just like how everyone loves Lynn with the flexibility and low risk of his 1/12 contract versus, say, a predicted contract of 4/56, we still had Hughes on a 2/16 deal coming off his very good season, but we tore that up for a 5/58 deal instead. Not impossible to justify, nothing that was going to sink the franchise or anything, but still a questionable move.
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#29 spycake

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:37 AM

Just in case people forget, TR was in charge of IFA during the Bill Smith era


Do you have a cite for that? I am pretty sure TR was in a more generic advisory position during the Smith years. I've never seen the claim that he was "in charge" of anything as large as IFA during that time.

Edited by spycake, 13 March 2018 - 09:38 AM.


#30 howieramone2

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:41 AM

 

Do you have a cite for that? I am pretty sure TR was in a more generic advisory position during the Smith years. I've never seen the claim that he was "in charge" of anything as large as IFA during that time.

LaVelle wrote an article in the Strib. I've cited it several times previously. 


#31 gunnarthor

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:44 AM

 

Cutting dead weight seemed to be a painful exercise for TR, one to be avoided or put off until tomorrow. But what about this.... How about during the Ryan rebuilding phase of just ONE trade in moving a significant veteran at peak value?

 

Major aspect of failure during the previous regime that would have accelerated the Twins much sooner out of this (mostly) lost decade.

If you're talking about his second term with us, the only big pieces Ryan had were Span (traded for Meyer), possibly Perkins (signed team friendly deal instead) and maybe Dozier after 2014 season? He didn't have a Shark to trade. He moved pretty much every single vet.

 

If you're talking about his initial run, he made lots of moves like that (or kept the player for draft comps). 

 

And I think you're a bit harsh on the Twins. They were more or less competitive for a decade and then had a season from hell in 2011 when injuries destroyed them (only three players had more than 370 at-bats for the team). Ryan more or less gave it one more shot with the same group in 2012 and then started the rebuild. They were in full rebuild mode in 2013-2014 and competitive in 2015 (in the WC hunt to the last series of the year). That's not that long of a rebuild for this market size. 2016 was the crazy season.


#32 spycake

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:51 AM

LaVelle wrote an article in the Strib. I've cited it several times previously.


Then it shouldn't be too hard for you to cite again. :)

Seriously, I have never read that TR was "in charge" of IFA during those years. This article, for example, talks to a lot of Twins front office folks about the Sano signing and paints a very different picture -- that the culture previously established by Terry Ryan was very evident (and was even cited by Sano's agent), but TR himself was not involved in process, either in targeting the player, securing the financial commitment from ownership, or actually finalizing the contract:

http://www.1500espn....ct-miguel-sano/
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#33 old nurse

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:09 AM

 

Cutting dead weight seemed to be a painful exercise for TR, one to be avoided or put off until tomorrow. But what about this.... How about during the Ryan rebuilding phase of just ONE trade in moving a significant veteran at peak value?

 

Major aspect of failure during the previous regime that would have accelerated the Twins much sooner out of this (mostly) lost decade.

Peak value is in the eye of the beholder. What you deem as peak is far different than others. He traded 2 CF. He did not trade an outfielder with an injury history, poor defense and 2 years left on a contract. Hmmm. No one was surprised when the last year played out how it did. He did not trade Plouffe who had one year of what you would call production. He got peak value for Doumit.It took another trade but he got peak value for Drew Butera.In his rebuilding phase he really only had 2 significan veterans, Span and Mauer. Mauer had a no trade clause.


#34 markos

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:34 AM

 

Name one mid-market team. 

Challenge accepted... :)

 

By my own definitions, I decided that there have been 4 other mid-market teams that have recently gone through a rebuilding cycle: Oakland (2006-2012), Cleveland (2007-2013), Diamondbacks (2011-2017) and Milwaukee (2011-2017). By all of the metrics laid out below, I think it is fair to say that all four completed their rebuilds faster and with less overall losing than the Twins.

 

# of seasons between playoff births:
Twins - 6 (2010-2017)
A's - 5 (2006-2012)
Indians - 5 (2007-2013)
Diamondbacks - 5 (2011-2017)
Brewers - 5 (2011-2017) <- including because they won more games than the Twins last year even though they didn't make the playoffs.

 

total # of losing seasons between playoff births:
Twins - 5 (2011-2014,2016)
A's - 4 (2008-2009,2011)
Indians - 4 (2009-2012)
Diamondbacks - 3 (2014-2016)
Brewers - 3 (2013,2015-2016)

 

largest # of consecutive <.500 seasons
Twins - 4 (2011-2014)
A's - 3 (2007-2009)
Indians - 4 (2009-2012)
Diamondbacks - 3 (2014-2016)
Brewers - 2 (2015-2016)

 

total # of <70-win seasons
Twins - 4 (2011-2014)
A's - 0
Indians - 3 (2009-2010,2012)
Diamondbacks - 2 (2014,2016)
Brewers - 1 (2015)

 

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#35 Doomtints

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:37 AM

 

TR was the architect of one of the fastest rebuilds of any mid-market team.

 

When was this?

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#36 Brandon

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:01 PM

Terry Ryan never had a 130 million budget.I liked Terry Ryan as a GM and I would be fine with him still at the helm.These new guys ended up with a nice offseason cause no one signed until spring training.I am happy with both.I am still upset about the Yu Darvish thing as they made it sound like they had a competetive offer but got beat out by the Cubs.I just wanted to see the Twins make a splash like that just to get that out of the way so we don't have to hear about how we don't spend anymore.  

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#37 ashburyjohn

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:07 PM

When Lance Lynn was signed, I found it necessary to remind posters "this is not a Terry Ryan thread". I was inclined toward going ahead and starting such a thread, but was a little short on time.

 

Deduno Abides's thread-starter here managed to encapsulate approximately what I would have said, had I done so.

 

For context, I was a long-time supporter of Ryan, who felt about a year before he left it was time for him to go.

 

This has been an unusual off-season, to put it mildly, with various useful players languishing on the open market even past the opening of Spring Training. Early estimates of contract values were regularly being under-achieved. It was the off-season that Terry Ryan was born to thrive in, and it's his bad luck that he didn't get the opportunity. Lowball offers were his stock in trade, and he likely would have succeeded in obtaining several useful players.

 

I am very happy with the job our FO has done this time. Next off-season will likely be a different beast, and it remains to be seen what they will accomplish in a seller's market, if that's how it plays out. So far, so good, and the jury's still out. For many reasons, judging a FO takes a long time.

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#38 Sconnie

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:30 PM

 

Terry Ryan never had a 130 million budget.I liked Terry Ryan as a GM and I would be fine with him still at the helm.These new guys ended up with a nice offseason cause no one signed until spring training.I am happy with both.I am still upset about the Yu Darvish thing as they made it sound like they had a competetive offer but got beat out by the Cubs.I just wanted to see the Twins make a splash like that just to get that out of the way so we don't have to hear about how we don't spend anymore.  

130 mil is relative to revenue and the total market. We won't know how much tis is relative to other teams for a couple weeks yet as the season has yet to begin, but at what looks to be roughly 52% of projected revenue Ryan and Smith both had budgets that were comparable in terms of MLB rank and % of revenue. The 51-52% number has not really changed in 10+ years and have been middle of the pack by rank several times.

 

 


#39 howieramone2

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:54 PM

 

Then it shouldn't be too hard for you to cite again. :)

Seriously, I have never read that TR was "in charge" of IFA during those years. This article, for example, talks to a lot of Twins front office folks about the Sano signing and paints a very different picture -- that the culture previously established by Terry Ryan was very evident (and was even cited by Sano's agent), but TR himself was not involved in process, either in targeting the player, securing the financial commitment from ownership, or actually finalizing the contract:

http://www.1500espn....ct-miguel-sano/

LaVelle wrote the article in May or June. The crux of the article was all of our current stars are TR guys. He specifically mentioned Sano and Kepler. LaVelle always leaves contact information, so feel free to contact him. I know I'm not the only member of the board that reads the sports page.


#40 Twins33

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:02 PM

LaVelle wrote the article in May or June. The crux of the article was all of our current stars are TR guys. He specifically mentioned Sano and Kepler. LaVelle always leaves contact information, so feel free to contact him. I know I'm not the only member of the board that reads the sports page.

I was interested too so I started googling. Are you sure it was LaVelle?

I see this from Souhan: http://www.startribu...cess/434397623/

And this from Sid: http://www.startribu...ryan/444565183/

Can't find one from LaVelle and I don't see any words in the above where it specifically says Ryan was in charge of the IFA.