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Where is Revere Most Valuable?

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#1 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:51 PM

Ben Revere made a big impact on the field for the Minnesota Twins in 2011. We keep hearing about players who need more time in the minor leagues to develop and Revere is no different. He played in only 126 games between New Britain and Rochester before being called up in May at the young age of 23. He played 117 games for the Twins and hit .267/.310/.309. He also set a new team record with 34 stolen bases. Truthfully Revere is ahead of where Hunter and Span were at their age. However, nobody is going to compare Revere to Hunter and Span because that is crazy talk. Revere has many obvious flaws like no power, low OBP, and probably the weakest arm ever. Revere worked on his arm strength this winter playing long toss football with his family and reports are his throws look better. So the question is where is Revere most valuable?

Revere is more valuable right now hitting towards the bottom of the lineup until he can learn to draw more walks, bunt, and get on base at a much higher clip. Revere will slide over to left field to make room for Denard Span in center. This is a big mistake made by the coaching staff and here are the reasons why. Revere runs down everything in center field and plays the position with absolutely no fear. The same argument cannot be made of Span especially after suffering from a concussion last year. Revere saved the Twins 10 runs in center field in 2011 and was clearly one of the elite outfielders defensively in MLB. He also cost the team 5 runs because of his terrible arm. If Revere managed to improve his arm strength and can get rid of the baseball quicker, having him patrol center field should be a no brainer. Revere has always played center field and might not be as good defensively in a corner position. You can't say the same thing about Span who is an elite defender in either left or right field. I forgot to mention Willingham has played his entire career in left field and moving him at 33 makes zero sense. I believe these moves are made because our great manager does not want to ask Span to switch positions. Gardenhire tried the same thing with Delmon Young (career right fielder) in 2008 because he refused to move his precious Cuddyer. Does anybody remember how well that worked out? Revere is most valuable in centerfield and it's not even close. Please tell me what you think.

Edited by Fanatic Jack, 02 March 2012 - 05:05 AM.


#2 Thrylos

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

A couple of quick thoughts about this: - I fundamentally agree that the Twins will be better with Revere in Center - I disagree about Span being "iffy" to hurt his body out there, especially in light of the fact that today he crushed head-first on the chain link fence trying to catch a Plouffe HR (thankfully he just got a fat lip only and he is ok)
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#3 Seth Stohs

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:36 PM

If it was me, I may put Revere in CF with Span in LF. I think that would be best. However, so many forget that when Span got hurt last summer, he was the #1 CF in all of baseball in UZR and was #1 in catches Out of Range. So, it's not like they're losing a ton by having Span in CF. I just like that the two of them are in LF and CF, covering so much space in that outfield. If healthy, both will be quite valuable for the Twins.

#4 Cody Christie

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

I could see the Twins leaving Span in center at the start of this season but moving Revere back to center in the future. Gardy doesn't want to upset his veterans by moving them to a different position in favor of a younger player. Even if it is better for the team.

#5 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:51 AM

Cody, Your answer is a perfect example of why Gardenhire is a TERRIBLE manager. Do what's best for the team and don't worry about if the players like you.

#6 Jontler

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:33 AM

Cody,

Your answer is a perfect example of why Gardenhire is a TERRIBLE manager. Do what's best for the team and don't worry about if the players like you.


This is a false dichotomy. A manager's job is to set the lineups as well as manage his players. Managing a player's attitudes and opinions is very much a part of the manager's job. Oftentimes what's best for the team is having the players happy.

#7 BigVin

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:36 AM

I agree as well here boys!

#8 Captain Kirkus

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:44 AM

I would like to make 2 points. 1st Gardy is not a terrible manager. I beleive he manages with his heart and not his head. This may lead to some poor decisions, but in the 10 years he has managed, 7 times Gardy has been top 3 for Manager of the Year. Until recently, most of that was accomplished with a lower payroll. 2nd, I agree with Fanatic Jack that Revere should be in center. Willingham should be in left and Span in right. Willy said he would adjust to Right field, why would the Twins have a guy adjust at 33 years old. They brought him in to mash the ball and drive in runs. As we have witnessed in the past, not all players adjust well to position changes and that can lead to poor performance at the plate as well. In defense of Delmon Young, he would have sucked at all position.

#9 Thrylos

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:51 AM

I would like to make 2 points. 1st Gardy is not a terrible manager. I beleive he manages with his heart and not his head. This may lead to some poor decisions, but in the 10 years he has managed, 7 times Gardy has been top 3 for Manager of the Year. Until recently, most of that was accomplished with a lower payroll.
.


Gardenhire is the Manager of the Millennium

(manager of the year and other post-season awards are worthless, btw, because the ones who vote for them see like 10-15 games a year max, while some of us see about 150+)
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#10 kemics

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:02 AM

I don't believe the Twins lose anything by putting Revere in Center except that his arm is much weaker than Span's. Having him in left gives him a shorter throw to third and to home then it would be if he were in center. I've always seen the center fielder as the captain of the of, and I believe having Span there with his experience helps the defense. Revere can cover all of left himself, allowing Span to help willingham in right. I don't think you are using either Revere or Span correctly if you put them in right, revere especially because of his arm. Revere needs to hit at the bottom of the lineup until he brings up his avg and obp. If he can get his OBP into the .330 range he will help the team immensely. Playing a full season he should easily steal 40+ bases. Putting him 9th, before the turn of the lineup, it's like having 2 speedy leadoff hitters, both he and Span will wreak havoc on the base paths. This potentially helps Spans OBP and AVG because of teams pitching out in order to keep Revere in check. Their speed keeps them from getting doubled up, having both on will allow carroll to move them over, and I think we will see Mauer up with runners on 2nd and 3rd a lot. If Mauer is healthy, he could have his highest OBP ever, I see him drawing a ton more walks because of the above situation, especially if Willingham is 4th and splits the M&M boys. I can't help but be excited by the possibilities.

#11 Steve Lein

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:16 AM

I disagree with the notion that Ben Revere is a better in CF than Span, and also disagree that Revere's defensive value would be lost in LF.

Last year at Spring Training, Revere was playing LF and ran down a ball deep in the LCF gap, full-out superman diving onto the Warning Track to make the catch. I'd go so far as to say it was a better play than his over the shoulder jumping into the wall catch at Target Field that won awards for play of the year.

Revere is a speedy/uber-rangy OF. He'll be successful no matter where you put him as far as running down fly-balls and making plays like that. I leave Span in CF because #1) It's his position, he's earned it through both his fielding and hitting. I'd be pissed if the manager all of the sudden made me switch in this situation. #2) Span is still pretty damn good at it, as mentioned. #3) Arm strength is more important in CF than LF. Span's arm isn't great either, but much can be gained from hiding Revere's in LF.

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#12 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:39 PM

Seth, This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success. The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream. As a manager you make decisions based on what is best for your 25-man roster. You don't make decisions based on how one player is going to react to it. Gardenhire is scared to death of his players. He is the only manager in the history of the game to walk into a clubhouse and talk to each player before he makes a lineup card. He basically gives each player an opportunity to talk himself out of being in the lineup. The bottom line Gardenhire is afraid of hurting Span's feelings. Hey Gardenhire go work at the YMCA if your worried about hurting your players feelings. I'm quite certain you can coach a kid's basketball team and make sure everyone plays equally. However, your attitude here is all wrong. Gardenhire has had the most talented players in Twins history and he has lost 12 straight playoff games. You think he would have learned something from moving Delmon Young to left field but apparently not. He is smarter than everyone else!!

Edited by Fanatic Jack, 05 March 2012 - 11:48 AM.


#13 Captain Kirkus

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:55 PM

Steve,

Hey Gardenhire go work at the YMCA if your worried about hurting your players feelings.


Great line

#14 Jontler

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:15 PM

[quote name='Fanatic Jack']As a manager you make decisions based on what is best for your 25-man roster. You don't make decisions based on how one player is going to react to it.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes these are the same thing.

[quote name='Fanatic Jack']He is the only manager in the history of the game to walk into a clubhouse and talk to each player before he makes a lineup card.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='Fanatic Jack']Gardenhire has had the most talented players in Twins history[/QUOTE]
[quote name='Fanatic Jack']The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream.[/QUOTE]

Also, your ability to harness hyperbole is impressive.

#15 Cap'n Piranha

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

[quote name='Fanatic Jack']The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream.QUOTE]

Whatever works for you, I guess.

#16 Seth Stohs

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:19 PM

"why would the Twins have a guy adjust at 33 years old?" In Willingham's case, cuz he's 33 and there is a lot less ground to cover in RF than LF.

#17 minn55441

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:42 PM

Jack I think you are missing the obivous, Span will play 120-140 games in Center. Revere will end up being part of a platoon in left. So every time we face a lefty starter, we will move span back over to Center? Span is the everyday starter in Center, he has proven himself. He is solid in the field and at the plate. They are close in the field, but as a hitter span is better in every category except steals. Depending on how well Revere performs at the plate, will determine the amount of his starts and at-bats. Doumit and Plouffe will both get starts in the outfield. I think Plouffe will end up playing as much or more than Ben in left, when it is all said and done.

#18 James

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:43 PM

I would leave Span in CF for sure. Have you actually watched Revere track down a fly ball? He often starts out misreading it and starts running the wrong way. But, Revere manage to make a lot of plays because he is fast enough to make up for misreading the ball in the first place. Span takes great routes to the ball as well. Span is a great Center fielder. Think about this fact, move Willingham to RF. Keep Span in CF and Revere in LF. You could then shade Span and Revere over more towards RF, therefore leaving less ground for Willingham (who is not known for his fielding) to cover. With Span in CF and Revere in LF, they could cover a lot of ground.

#19 Shane Wahl

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 05:06 PM

Left field is much bigger than right field in TF, so it makes sense to move Willingham over. And I would think that Revere in LF and Span in CF would be about equal to Revere in CF and Span in LF. Span is not an "average" defensive CF, by the way. He is a good one.

#20 TwinsArmChairGM_Jon

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 05:28 PM

Ideally, at least for now, Revere is most valuable as a fourth outfielder off the bench. He's great as a defensive replacement and his speed plays well as a pinch runner. Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal team, so Ben is most likely going to be starting. His arm is not great or even average, so I have a hard time starting him anywhere but LF as long as we have Span. His offensive statistics consist of a small sample size in parts of two seasons, but so far he has shown low OBP's and little power which shouldn't surprise anyone who saw his minor league numbers. He needs to raise his OBP 20 points this year just to get to league average and even there his offensive value is limited because of his lack of power. Is it possible for him to drastically raise his on-base-percentage to something well above average? Sure, but he's going to need to to be a Leadoff/Two hitter. Until then he's going to be a bottom of the order OF with some speed.

#21 woolhouse

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 05:47 PM

Revere played in LF in Target Field towards the end of last season, too. And he made some great catches in the gap and running towards the line. But if his bat isn't there, I think his most valuable place is on the bench as a late-inning defensive replacement for Plouffe or Willingham (with Span or Plouffe switching to right) or pinch runner.

#22 spideyo

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:43 PM

Right now, Revere is most valuable standing on 2nd base. :-) Since we signed Willingham, I've thought it would be best to keep him in LF and put Span in RF. With Revere's range, he could cover a fair amount of LF to help out Willingham, and you wouldn't be forcing a guy to not just adjust to the other side of the OF, but also deal with the goofy-ass overhang. Span has the most experience at Target Field, let's put him in the trickiest spot. As far as the plate goes, that's where we gotta remember that Revere is only 23. He's young enough that he still could develop a decent amount of power and an excellent eye at the plate. Give him a little time in a low pressure slot at the bottom of the order, and I think we'll see some great things from this young man. Can someone tell Mr Carew to teach Revere how to steal home too? That'd be fun to watch.

#23 Clare Chen

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:38 AM

He's young enough that he still could develop a decent amount of power


Well, that seems like a bit of a questionable assertion.

#24 fbroschard

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:40 AM

Jack I just want to tell you what a great job you are doing! I think your opinion on the Twins are right on the mark. You are the only blogger who has the guts to say what is lacking with this organization. Thanks for your voice and keep it coming! I will always be listening.......

#25 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:34 AM

On the bench. Winning organizations don't give an OF spot to. 650-ish OPS outfielder.

#26 Todd G

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:48 AM

Revere played in LF in Target Field towards the end of last season, too. And he made some great catches in the gap and running towards the line.

But if his bat isn't there, I think his most valuable place is on the bench as a late-inning defensive replacement for Plouffe or Willingham (with Span or Plouffe switching to right) or pinch runner.


Exactly. Until he learns to get on base he's a 4th outfielder. Unfortunately carrying Revere, Butera and Nishioka all on the same bench would be an absolute pinch hitting nightmare.

#27 Cap'n Piranha

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 07:15 AM

Steve,

This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success. The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream. As a manager you make decisions based on what is best for your 25-man roster. You don't make decisions based on how one player is going to react to it. Gardenhire is scared to death of his players. He is the only manager in the history of the game to walk into a clubhouse and talk to each player before he makes a lineup card. He basically gives each player an opportunity to talk himself out of being in the lineup. The bottom line Gardenhire is afraid of hurting Span's feelings.

Hey Gardenhire go work at the YMCA if your worried about hurting your players feelings. I'm quite certain you can coach a kid's basketball team and make sure everyone plays equally. However, your attitude here is all wrong. Gardenhire has had the most talented players in Twins history and he has lost 12 straight playoff games. You think he would have learned something from moving Delmon Young to left field but apparently not. He is smarter than everyone else!!


You seem to be under the misassumption that feelings don't matter, so let me pose a hypothetical to you. At your place of employment you have two bosses who alternate days. One is friendly, genuinely cares about you, and manages you as a person, and not just an employee. The other is bossy, doesn't seek your input, and is only interested in doign things his way, not matter what anyone else thinks. Which one of these bosses would you rather work for, and which one would get the best effort from you?

Also, from a statistical standpoint, last year Span's UZR/150 in CF was 17.6. In the last 4 years, he's gone from -32.7 to -11.5 to 4.5 to that 17.6--in other words, he has vastly improved his defense over the past 4 years. Revere, meanwhile, was at 15.1 in CF for UZR/150 last year. Denard therefore, based on the extremely small sample size, is more valuable in center than Revere.

#28 Steve Lein

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 09:27 AM

Steve,

This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success.


This is where I disagree, and disagree strongly. Yes, the managers job should be to put the best players in the best position for his team to succeed, BUT, putting a "player in the best position" is NOT limited to solely their physical spot on the field. Like it or not, players have emotions and an ego, ask any coach who's ever taught a game and these are things they weigh. Span has earned that position, and he'll tell you that's where he wants to play. Would he move to a corner spot if asked? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean for a second it's what is best for him or the team. Remember when Cuddyer couldn't hit because he was worrying so much about where he'd play and having to pick a ground ball? Then Gardy moved him to the OF and he turned it around. Like it or not, in essence, this is the same exact thing that I'm talking about. You said it best yourself:

Why would you mess with past success.

[?] I do NOT believe Ben Revere is a better CF than Span. As someone else mentions, Revere doesn't take good routes and has to make up for it with his speed. Span isn't all that slower and doesn't have the same route-taking issues. Span has an almost average arm, while Revere has a well-below average one. And I did not say Span deserves to be the CF just because he's "been there before". I said he deserves to be the CF because he's earned it. These are 2 drastically different things.

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#29 powrwrap

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 09:55 AM

Ideally, at least for now, Revere is most valuable as a fourth outfielder off the bench. He's great as a defensive replacement and his speed plays well as a pinch runner.

Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal team, so Ben is most likely going to be starting. His arm is not great or even average, so I have a hard time starting him anywhere but LF as long as we have Span.

His offensive statistics consist of a small sample size in parts of two seasons, but so far he has shown low OBP's and little power which shouldn't surprise anyone who saw his minor league numbers. He needs to raise his OBP 20 points this year just to get to league average and even there his offensive value is limited because of his lack of power. Is it possible for him to drastically raise his on-base-percentage to something well above average? Sure, but he's going to need to to be a Leadoff/Two hitter. Until then he's going to be a bottom of the order OF with some speed.


I was going to post something, but TwinsArmChairGM nailed it for me. Revere should not be in the starting lineup. He's a late inning pinch runner/defensive player. Those of you arguing that he should be placed at the bottom of the order are apparently forgetting that you then have a sequence of Revere-Span-Carroll, not exactly a run producing trio. Remember 2007: Tyner--Punto--Casilla?
[FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#000000]"Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand." [/COLOR][/FONT]

#30 jlovren

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 10:43 AM

On the bench. Winning organizations don't give an OF spot to. 650-ish OPS outfielder.


I would go as far to say that's the case for any position. However, I am inclined to think that Revere can raise his OBP to the league average and do some damage on the basepaths. To have a guy who steals 30-40 bases a year makes up for lack of power.