Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.

The Store

Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

Photo

Was Morneau the Dodgers' first choice?

  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 Jim Crikket

Jim Crikket

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,134 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:14 AM

Per the LA Times story on the Red Sox/Dodgers deal (hat tip Phil Mackey):

"A four-time All-Star first baseman, Gonzalez was the prize in the deal. The Dodgers inquired about him leading up to the July 31 nonwaiver trade deadline and approached the Red Sox again after a failed attempt to land Minnesota Twins first baseman Justin Morneau last week."

My first thought was, "Did the Twins refuse to trade Morneau and, if so, why?" But then the story just says the Dodgers failed to land him. Every AL team and most NL teams would have to pass on Morneau before the Dodgers would get the waiver claim. Would be interesting to know if he was claimed by someone else (Toronto maybe?) and that prevented the deal from going through.
[COLOR=#0000cd]I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at[/COLOR][COLOR=#800000] Knuckleballsblog.com[/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd] while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd][COLOR=#800000]MetroSportsReport.com[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd].[/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#b22222]~You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant~[/COLOR]

#2 SpiritofVodkaDave

SpiritofVodkaDave

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,180 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:16 AM

It would have been a salary dump, and frankly I wouldn't have liked it.
The dodgers have proven they dont give a damn about taking on money.

#3 Jim Crikket

Jim Crikket

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,134 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

I wouldn't have liked it if the Twins had just let Morneau and his salary go for a waiver claim to dump salary, either. But with some kind of pitching prospect in return as well? Might make sense and at this point I wouldn't begrudge Morneau from wanting to get in to a post-season situation.
[COLOR=#0000cd]I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at[/COLOR][COLOR=#800000] Knuckleballsblog.com[/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd] while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd][COLOR=#800000]MetroSportsReport.com[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd].[/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#b22222]~You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant~[/COLOR]

#4 beckmt

beckmt

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 855 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 10:25 AM

The Dodgers were looking a Morneau as a pickup if the Twins were dumping salary. There offer included none of the Dodgers top prospects, so TR was correct to turn it down. The deal the Dodgers did now could come back to bite them in the future, but this deal will not be evalutated for 2 - 3 years. Dodgers came out OK if Carl Crawford returns to his Tampa Bay form, otherwise this is probably a bad deal for the Dodgers, but they wanted to make the postseason.

#5 greengoblinrulz

greengoblinrulz

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,759 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 10:30 AM

as a salary dump, not interested at all. Getting a DeLoRosa/Webster type prospect back also....grrrrrr. Its hard to argue it tho unless we know who MN turned down as prospects or wait & see what type of deal they get this winter (IF they deal him)
Earlier when Pitt azquired Wandy Rodriguez, Dan Gladden hinted hard on the radio that the Twins turned down the same prospect deal for Frankie & got the 2 from the Sox instead. Easier to argue that one (ambivilant on that one myself) as you can compare.

#6 Thrylos

Thrylos

    Yes

  • Members
  • 4,432 posts
  • LocationLehigh Valley, PA, USA
  • Twitter: thrylos98

Posted 25 August 2012 - 12:11 PM

Totally disappointed by what Ryan did not do at the trading deadline and in August. Missing trading Morneau is a huge mistake. Very disappointed.
-----
Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
http://tenthinningst...h.blogspot.com/
twitter: @thrylos98

#7 jianfu

jianfu

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 12:32 PM

Totally disappointed by what Ryan did not do at the trading deadline and in August. Missing trading Morneau is a huge mistake. Very disappointed.


I agree. I would have been in favor even if it was a pure salary dump. Morneau's really not worth near his contract, and they have a cheap plug-in with Parmalee (or even other options such as Willingham, Mauer, even potentially guys such as Doumit or Plouffe (if he continues the carosel of hell that is guys who can't garner trust at 3b)...it's not hard to find a guy to play first)

Or to put it another (simplified) way, if given the choice of going into 2013 with Morneau + SP's off the discount rack, or Parmalee + $14 million to go chase SP, I think they're better off with the latter. But we'll see.

It's also possible LA wanted MIN to eat some salary. That would be a different issue, potentially.

#8 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,805 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 12:40 PM

As JC mentioned, we don't really know anything other than the Dodgers wanted Morneau. I don't blame Ryan for not dealing him for nothing at the July deadline. As for August, we don't know if he would have cleared waivers all the way to the Dodgers. And if he did, maybe again, the Dodgers may have been trying to get him for nothing.

I'm all for dealing Morneau for a decent pitching prospect, handing the reigns over the Chris Parmelee and using that $14 million on two free agent pitchers.

#9 PseudoSABR

PseudoSABR

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 1,974 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 01:48 PM

I'm also mad at Terry Ryan for not selling low on Morneau! He could have saved some money! Mar!

#10 twinstalker

twinstalker

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 170 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 01:56 PM

The Dodgers were looking a Morneau as a pickup if the Twins were dumping salary. There offer included none of the Dodgers top prospects, so TR was correct to turn it down.


Fine. Name those offered. Why would you say this unless you also mentioned the names? Sounds like hyperbole to me. Ryan made a huge mistake here. Worst case, clearing salary.

#11 JP3700

JP3700

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 294 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 01:58 PM

Well first of all let's all be honest here.. The center piece of the trade is Nick Punto!......

Okay let me start over.. I think this is a great trade for both teams but more so the Red Sox. They now have a great rotation set up for years to come. Matt Barnes is a projected 1-2 starter. They still have Lester, Buckholz, Doubront, and Morales. Now they add 2 guys who project to be solid 2-4 starters. With all the money coming off the books on top of Dice-K, big papi, and Youk's contracts that's a lot of money to reload with.

Now let me talk about why this is good for the Twins. First of all I doubt there was anything offered worth noting for Morneau so I'm glad we still have him. I do believe we need to look at rebuilding as the goal for the offseason. Easy to say obviously but this move by the red sox opens up another door for the Twins IMO. Without going into detail of exact players and prospects in return.. This now makes a 3rd team that the twins can seriously talk to about a big trade come this winter. The other 2 being the Braves and the Phillies. All 3 teams have very inticing high end pitching prospects(with the Sox and Braves also having coveted young shortstops) and all 3 have great motivation to pull the trigger. The Phillies and Red Sox both have to reload to keep their fan base happy. Willingham and Span would be a perfect fit for the Phillies lineup and would (in their mind) put them into title contention. As for the Sox we can basically offer them 70HR and 200RBI with the hammer and Canadian. As for the Braves.. Bourn is leaving and they're going to move Prado to third next year so they will have the same holes the phillies have to fill in the outfield and they'd like to do it without spending a lot of cash. Getting Willingham and Span to fill out their already potent lineup would surge them to the top of the NL.

From these 3 options.. The team I'd like most to deal with is the Braves due to the type of return we could receive. This Boston trade creates more demand for our players.. which is great! All of our top prospects are either outfielders or corner infielders. This winter we need to use the assets we have.. To balance out our future (pitching and middle infielders).. So that we can possibly have a 10 year contender come 2015(crosses fingers for 2014). To sign a couple middle of the road starters and keep the nucleus we have now would just make for at best a .500 team and hold back the franchise even longer.

The hard part will be the business aspect. Moving big names means less tickets being sold. Which means less revenue. As a business owner myself there will have to be a commitment and belief that the right moves will eventually pay off and when it does.. The fans will once again fill the seats. I wouldn't mind reducing payroll for a couple years if it means we're going in the right direction. Lot of people forget the 2010 Rangers' payroll was under 60 million and they did pretty well for themselves. So to recap.. Good trade Boston!

#12 Monkeypaws

Monkeypaws

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 756 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:10 PM

I'm also mad at Terry Ryan for not selling low on Morneau! He could have saved some money! Mar!


Why do you care what the Pohlads spend their dough on? I couldn't care less.

Looking at what Boston got back, I'm glad the Twins kept Justin. I'd like to see him get a reasonable extension and spend his entire career as a Twin. If the Twins want to keep him, they should work on it now, because Morneau will have a big season next year.

Loyalty is often thrust upon the player as a responsibility, how about management taking a turn?

Justin could age gracefully into full time DH duties, and provide a good bat in the middle of the lineup for years to come.

Edited by Monkeypaws, 25 August 2012 - 05:13 PM.


#13 Winston Smith

Winston Smith

    Old Geezer

  • Members
  • 1,486 posts
  • LocationOceania

Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:28 PM

This team is close to 60 games under over the last 2 years so why would you want to make changes now? Aren't we kind of on a roll?

#14 PseudoSABR

PseudoSABR

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 1,974 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

I'm also mad at Terry Ryan for not selling low on Morneau! He could have saved some money! Mar!


Why do you care what the Pohlads spend their dough on? I couldn't care less.

Looking at what Boston got back, I'm glad the Twins kept Justin. I'd like to see him get a reasonable extension and spend his entire career as a Twin. If the Twins want to keep him, they should work on it now, because Morneau will have a big season next year.

Loyalty is often thrust upon the player as a responsibility, how about management taking a turn?

Justin could age gracefully into full time DH duties, and provide a good bat in the middle of the lineup for years to come.

I was being sarcastic.

#15 Monkeypaws

Monkeypaws

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 756 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:39 PM

[quote name='PseudoSABR'][quote name='Monkeypaws'][quote name='PseudoSABR']I'm also mad at Terry Ryan for not selling low on Morneau! He could have saved some money! Mar![/QUOTE]

Why do you care what the Pohlads spend their dough on? I couldn't care less.

Looking at what Boston got back, I'm glad the Twins kept Justin. I'd like to see him get a reasonable extension and spend his entire career as a Twin. If the Twins want to keep him, they should work on it now, because Morneau will have a big season next year.

Loyalty is often thrust upon the player as a responsibility, how about management taking a turn?

Justin could age gracefully into full time DH duties, and provide a good bat in the middle of the lineup for years to come.[/QUOTE]I was being sarcastic.[/QUOTE]

Sorry - my sarcasm detectors aren't finely tuned to this site yet - newb. :o

#16 John Bonnes

John Bonnes

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 4,985 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 06:05 PM

"...after a failed attempt..."


I wish I had some idea what that means. It almost certainly means one of three things....
1) The Dodgers claimed him but someone else did with a better record.
2) The Dodgers claimed him and had rights but couldn't work out a trade.
3) No team claimed him and they couldn't work out a trade.

If its #1, fine; there is at least one other team interested in Morneau at $14M next year.
If it's #2, it means the Twins didn't take advantage of a chance to unload $14M of salary next year. I don't know if that's wise, but it's probably good news that they didn't feel like they HAD to do so.
If it's #3, then the fan base (and maybe the front office) needs a reality check. If no team is willing to claim him in the middle of a pennant race without any compensation, then what are the chances of actually getting a pitching prospect?

I don't know which it was. I hope we learn more about this.

#17 jharaldson

jharaldson

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 219 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 06:30 PM

As JC mentioned, we don't really know anything other than the Dodgers wanted Morneau. I don't blame Ryan for not dealing him for nothing at the July deadline. As for August, we don't know if he would have cleared waivers all the way to the Dodgers. And if he did, maybe again, the Dodgers may have been trying to get him for nothing.

I'm all for dealing Morneau for a decent pitching prospect, handing the reigns over the Chris Parmelee and using that $14 million on two free agent pitchers.


We don't know the specific details of what was on the table but knowing now what the Dodgers gave up to the Red Sox we know what they were willing to give up during negotiations:

1. They were requesting a left handed power hitting first baseman with around a .810 OPS.
2. They were willing to absorb the contract of a pitcher who had previous success but was now performing well under salary value.
3. They were willing to absorb the contract of a poor utility fielder.
4. They were not requiring much of the offloaded contracts to be paid for by the team sending them out.
5. They were willing to send out some prospects despite all of the conditions above.

I don't know where the Red Sox and Terry Ryan took their trade talks but I could argue that a package of Morneau, Blackburn, and Nishioka compares in many ways to Gonzalez, Beckett, Punto, and Crawford. In some ways it might be considered better since it involves over $200 million less in future money, although it would have less upside to go along with the lower risk. Given our current knowledge I am inclined to think that Ryan didn't look into the Dodgers options enough and the Red Sox were able to swoop in and take advantage.

#18 JP3700

JP3700

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 294 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 06:53 PM

As I stated in my essay above I'm 100% for rebuilding and shedding some money to invest in other parts of the ball club but I'm okay with not rushing to trade our assets.

Morneau is building his value daily. His OPS is now back over .800 and it's likely to approach .850 by seasons end. The market will be small but there will be one. Boston stands out now.. Considering his projected production at Fenway would be huge. .900+ OPS when healthy. Tampa also would be an option but we would have to take on most of his salary. The return may be nice though if we can add pieces around him in the trade. Think James Shields.

Willingham and Span will also have big value. Outside of Hamilton and big Papi there are no FA hitters with 30+ HR power. Span will be the second best lead off hitter "available" behind Bourn. To top it off the club friendly contracts won't hurt.

A lot more gets done in the offseason anyway.. When all 30 teams still have hope and are looking to build a winner.

#19 Rosterman

Rosterman

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,072 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 07:30 PM

Yes, Morneau, Blackbum, Toshi and throw in Benson and you have a $200 million savings. The Twins get four prospects and a 1st base rental for part of a season. The Red Sox pulled off an awesome salary dump. Add in no Ortiz for next season and they will be wisely spending money in 2013......
Joel Thingvall
www.thingvall.com
rosterman at www.twinscards.com

#20 The Greatest Poster Alive

The Greatest Poster Alive

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 221 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 07:54 PM

in this thread; A Bunch of people who have no idea what the twins were offered acting like they know .

I've said it before, i'll say it again. You have ZERO idea what happens in a MLB front office.

#21 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 3,179 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 25 August 2012 - 08:12 PM

Its pretty easy to deduce, that if the Dodgers were in on Morneau, that few if any teams are interested in him and so any trade would not involve a high upside pitching prospect as so many in this zone are wishing for.

#22 B Richard

B Richard

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 522 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:26 PM

From the perspective that Morneau to the Dodgers would've been mainly just a salary dump, I'm glad the Twins held out. Morneau's production is picking up, meaning that there's a good chance we could get legitimate prospects for him next year if he continues to put it together. Sell high, my friends.

#23 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:42 PM

we cut 18 million from last years payroll and none went to starting pitching , you think that if they dumped justins 14 million they would spend 14 million on pitching???

#24 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 09:44 PM

As JC mentioned, we don't really know anything other than the Dodgers wanted Morneau. I don't blame Ryan for not dealing him for nothing at the July deadline. As for August, we don't know if he would have cleared waivers all the way to the Dodgers. And if he did, maybe again, the Dodgers may have been trying to get him for nothing.

I'm all for dealing Morneau for a decent pitching prospect, handing the reigns over the Chris Parmelee and using that $14 million on two free agent pitchers.


14 million on 2 starting pitchers? you looking to resign marquis and perhaps clemens...a starters going to cost 14million for 1 and maybe more...if your looking at a front of the rotation guy

#25 JP3700

JP3700

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 294 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 10:36 PM

14 million on 2 starting pitchers? you looking to resign marquis and perhaps clemens...a starters going to cost 14million for 1 and maybe more...if your looking at a front of the rotation guy


14 million is significant if they budget it right and have a plan. If they're willing to invest 5-6 years.. Edwin Jackson should be in the 10-12 million per year range. I think it would be a solid investment considering you can pretty much plug him in for 200 innings a year. Then you have 2-4 million for a Kevin Millwood type investment as a stopgap for a healthy Kyle Gibson in 2014. They also have Pavano, Liriano, Baker, Capps, Marquis contracts coming off the books. 25M+

#26 iastfan112

iastfan112

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 207 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 11:23 PM

We don't know the specific details of what was on the table but knowing now what the Dodgers gave up to the Red Sox we know what they were willing to give up during negotiations:

1. They were requesting a left handed power hitting first baseman with around a .810 OPS.
2. They were willing to absorb the contract of a pitcher who had previous success but was now performing well under salary value.
3. They were willing to absorb the contract of a poor utility fielder.
4. They were not requiring much of the offloaded contracts to be paid for by the team sending them out.
5. They were willing to send out some prospects despite all of the conditions above.

I don't know where the Red Sox and Terry Ryan took their trade talks but I could argue that a package of Morneau, Blackburn, and Nishioka compares in many ways to Gonzalez, Beckett, Punto, and Crawford. In some ways it might be considered better since it involves over $200 million less in future money, although it would have less upside to go along with the lower risk. Given our current knowledge I am inclined to think that Ryan didn't look into the Dodgers options enough and the Red Sox were able to swoop in and take advantage.


1. Gonzales is better than Morneau. Gonzales had to play in a huge park and still outhit Morneau over his career. Less injury concerns as well. Gonzales is certainly a long term piece for the Dodgers and Morneau would've been a riskier one.
2. The fact you're even comparing Blackburn and Beckett is absurd. Beckett is a guy who has flirted with being an ace, Blackburn has flirted with being a league average pitcher. Blackburn has no value.
3. Punto can field his position, Nishioka can't. Again, Punto at least has marginal value whereas Nishi doesn't.
4. That's because the Dodgers are clearly in spend mode. The Magic Johnson group pretty clearly doesn't care about payroll at this point.
The Dodger's bought low on 3 guys who very well could be All Stars and major cogs in a WS run.

#27 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,170 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 09:10 AM

How can you be dissappointed that Ryan "missed" on trading Morneau when you don't have the slightest clue what was "missed" in terms of a return? Or are you just looking to express dissappointment again, thrylos?

What have any of you heard that lead you to believe the Twins are interested in "dumping salary"? The last I read, Ryan was quite clear in saying that the budget will not be a hinderance as he continues to fix things.

My guess is that they're not going to trade Morneau unless they receive adequate talent in return. Frankly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them agree to absorb part of the $14M to close a deal.

I know I'm in the minority, but I believe they will spend big for an Edwin Jackson- type top of the rotation FA starter this winter.

#28 Alex

Alex

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 978 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 09:53 AM

The Twins seem like a very static organization right now. With that in mind, my prediction is they keep Morneau and end up seeing him leave to FA after another disappointing season next year for the Twins. They may not spend on starting pitching but they should, otherwise we're just "Sitting Still for Sano."

#29 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,075 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks

Posted 26 August 2012 - 10:47 AM

How can you be dissappointed that Ryan "missed" on trading Morneau when you don't have the slightest clue what was "missed" in terms of a return? Or are you just looking to express dissappointment again, thrylos?

What have any of you heard that lead you to believe the Twins are interested in "dumping salary"? The last I read, Ryan was quite clear in saying that the budget will not be a hinderance as he continues to fix things.

My guess is that they're not going to trade Morneau unless they receive adequate talent in return. Frankly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them agree to absorb part of the $14M to close a deal.

I know I'm in the minority, but I believe they will spend big for an Edwin Jackson- type top of the rotation FA starter this winter.


I'm with you Bird.

If you do the math... Terry Ryan has to take a run at one decent free agent starter. I don't know if a Free Agent Starter will sign with the Twins but Terry Ryan pretty much has to take a run at good one. Too much money coming off the books and too glaring a need to ignore the free agent pool this off season.

I don't care about past track record. The past was the past and this is now.

As for Morneau... There is the off season and the next trade deadline. No reason to move him unless it's for a pitcher and a good one.


I'd also like to register a vote for death to the Rollover Pop Ups. I certainly understand the right to make money. Advertise away and more power to ya... But something less intrusive please.

#30 DAM DC Twins Fans

DAM DC Twins Fans

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 513 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 12:10 PM

How can you be dissappointed that Ryan "missed" on trading Morneau when you don't have the slightest clue what was "missed" in terms of a return? Or are you just looking to express dissappointment again, thrylos?

What have any of you heard that lead you to believe the Twins are interested in "dumping salary"? The last I read, Ryan was quite clear in saying that the budget will not be a hinderance as he continues to fix things.

My guess is that they're not going to trade Morneau unless they receive adequate talent in return. Frankly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them agree to absorb part of the $14M to close a deal.

I know I'm in the minority, but I believe they will spend big for an Edwin Jackson- type top of the rotation FA starter this winter.


I'm with you Bird.

If you do the math... Terry Ryan has to take a run at one decent free agent starter. I don't know if a Free Agent Starter will sign with the Twins but Terry Ryan pretty much has to take a run at good one. Too much money coming off the books and too glaring a need to ignore the free agent pool this off season.

I don't care about past track record. The past was the past and this is now.

As for Morneau... There is the off season and the next trade deadline. No reason to move him unless it's for a pitcher and a good one.


I'd also like to register a vote for death to the Rollover Pop Ups. I certainly understand the right to make money. Advertise away and more power to ya... But something less intrusive please.


I second the motion on the Popup Rollover thingies--they are a big pain in the butt and make navigating this site almost impossible.

Please stop considering Edwin Jackson an ACE pitcher. I live in Washington suburbs. The Nats have THREE ACE pitchers, Strasberg, Zimmerman and Gio. Edwin Jackson is not an ACE--he is Carl Pavano or Nick Blackburn or Scott Baker on their good days. I would not give Jackson $10million--not even sure if I would give him 5million. I would actually take Detwieler off the Nats staff before Jackson--Detweiler has more up side.

Again, we have no idea what Ryan was offered for Justin. I am anxious to trade him and get the 14 million and move Parmalee to first. Justin is one concussion from retirement--which other teams know. His value will never be higher.