Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Article: The Top 20 Minnesota Twins Assets: Part 4 (1-5)

eddie rosario miguel sano jose berrios royce lewis byron buxton
  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

#41 Lee-The-Twins-Fan

Lee-The-Twins-Fan

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 317 posts

Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:44 PM

 

I think Berrios is worth more than Lewis, currently. Young starting pitcher, with elite stuff and has shown elite results in the MLB for stretches, and in the high minors for years vs an 18-year old unknown who may or may not stick at short stop? Is there a GM in their right mind who would take Lewis if given the choice between the two today for nothing?

Think of it this way, if there were an expansion draft tomorrow, and the team had its choice of Lewis and Berrios, they'd take Berrios every time.

I can't think of any scenario where a team would give up Berrios straight up for Lewis. Maybe the Marlins, because their FO makes ridiculous moves all the time.

 

I disagree, but it's real close.

 

Lewis has more years available than Berrios.  That's the biggest difference.


#42 h2oface

h2oface

    Lifelong since '61

  • Members
  • 3,224 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 03 January 2018 - 05:48 PM

First of all, thanks for all the mansplaining, or would it be fansplaining, here? -about Mauer's current contract and stats, and all the great recaps of how trades work these days after my first Mauer comment. I enjoyed the great summaries.^_^ I truly did. I come at some things as common Twins' fan knowledge - like a contract and terms that has already been discussed ump-thousand times - and his performance last year and throughout his career - and of course, that was considered in developing the comment that I was surprised that Mauer didn't even break this list at #20. (and now see he wouldn't have even made 25!).

 

I usually get it the first time, and surely by the 10th time........ the info that becomes common knowledge here. Sometimes opinions are like faith. You don't need facts and reality to have one, especially as twisted as value has become these days. In my opinion, way way too much value is put on prospects.... most that never see the show, but make a lot of lists.

 

"20 most valuable Minnesota Twins assets. Looking beyond performance to account for age, contract, and future impact, the idea is to determine which players will be most vital to the team's ongoing success (or, most useful as trade chips)."

 

If we are just talking trade chips, I misunderstand the mission statement. Maybe I am thinking too much about the short term future of 2018 as most vital and ongoing success. It is a fun excercise, though, and who knows. Time will tell. Or not.

Edited by h2oface, 03 January 2018 - 06:26 PM.

  • Vanimal46 likes this

#43 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Minnesota Twins Whine Line Host

  • Members
  • 9,735 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 03 January 2018 - 06:21 PM

Good list overall. I agree with the top 5 as Nick sees it. I'm also surprised Mauer didn't make the cut as others are. In my personal rankings, I would leave Duffey and May off the list. Low leverage middle relievers are a dime a dozen, and May is too injury prone. I'd put Mauer, and probably Baddoo on the list in their place. Baddoo is a borderline top 100 prospect this winter. Another positive season from him and he'll be the talk of this website.
  • h2oface and Tomj14 like this

#44 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,939 posts

Posted 03 January 2018 - 06:47 PM

 

I disagree, but it's real close.

 

Lewis has more years available than Berrios.  That's the biggest difference.

No. The biggest difference is that Berrios has made the majors, failed and then succeeded. Lewis reached what used to be termed "B" level baseball-period.

  • Tomj14 likes this

#45 caninatl04

caninatl04

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 441 posts

Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:51 PM

 

I understand that Mauer only has 1 year left on his contract, but it is amazing, to me, that he doesn't even make it to #20 in this list of the club's most valuable assets. Less valuable than Trevor May, Tyler Duffey, Taylor Rogers, Adalberto Mejia, or Alex Kirilloff, eh? I'm not buying. If he has virtually minimal value as an asset, why even keep him in the lineup?:confused:

I know this is sacrilegious, but Mauer and his left handed bat would work well in Yankee pinstripes.Recall how many homers he hit into the Metrodome's Glad Bag?That would play with Yankee stadium's what 150' right field foul line.

 

It would also work since the Yankees could offer Joe a contract that wouldn't be a 75% reduction.And, with all that HR power in their lineup, Joe's OBP might play. 

 

But aside from them, I can't see any team wanting zero power at 1B.


#46 h2oface

h2oface

    Lifelong since '61

  • Members
  • 3,224 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 04 January 2018 - 07:58 AM

 

I know this is sacrilegious, but Mauer and his left handed bat would work well in Yankee pinstripes.Recall how many homers he hit into the Metrodome's Glad Bag?That would play with Yankee stadium's what 150' right field foul line.

 

It would also work since the Yankees could offer Joe a contract that wouldn't be a 75% reduction.And, with all that HR power in their lineup, Joe's OBP might play. 

 

But aside from them, I can't see any team wanting zero power at 1B.

 

Except....... that Mauer has never been able to make the transition to a pull hitter! The huge guy with the "perfect" inside out swing, has never been able to adjust successfully and evolve, like so many other hitters. Meanwhile, we watch smaller guys like Dozier and Rosario launch them out. And no, I don't remember how many (non)homers he hit into the right field glad bag. I remember how many homers that crawled over the left center fence in 2009, and some that still do. He is what he is, and Boston, and banging all those left field drives off the green monster for doubles makes a lot more sense to me than Yankee Stadium. It is a shame that he couldn't adjust, and become more than he was. He is so big. It has always amazed me that he didn't become a slugger with age.

  • Nine of twelve likes this

#47 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:15 AM

 

"20 most valuable Minnesota Twins assets. Looking beyond performance to account for age, contract, and future impact, the idea is to determine which players will be most vital to the team's ongoing success (or, most useful as trade chips)."

 

If we are just talking trade chips, I misunderstand the mission statement. Maybe I am thinking too much about the short term future of 2018 as most vital and ongoing success. It is a fun excercise, though, and who knows. Time will tell. Or not.

Question for you: If the Twins suddenly didn't have Mauer available to them, how much worse off are they? Move Sano to first, start Escobar at 3rd, find a DH or just use Grossman. And then you've got an extra 23 mil to spend elsewhere. 

 

He's a fine player but he's just not indispensable to the franchise in any way at this point.

 

 

Low leverage middle relievers are a dime a dozen, and May is too injury prone.

? The UCL tear was literally May's first arm injury in his career. 

  • h2oface and laloesch like this

#48 Tomj14

Tomj14

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 433 posts

Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:31 AM

 

Question for you: If the Twins suddenly didn't have Mauer available to them, how much worse off are they? Move Sano to first, start Escobar at 3rd, find a DH or just use Grossman. And then you've got an extra 23 mil to spend elsewhere. 

 

He's a fine player but he's just not indispensable to the franchise in any way at this point.

 

 

? The UCL tear was literally May's first arm injury in his career. 

They would lose a guy that gets OBP, plays great defense, sees a lot of pitchers, and a really good utility guy (by playing Escobar full time). You would be moving Sano for the third time in 3 years. You would gain quite a bit as well no denying that; maybe not directly on the field but for sure roster and salary flexibility.

You lose Duffey or May and you lose a guy that didn't pitch last year and is no more than a hope this year and the 4th right hander out of the bullpen.

 

Doesn't May have a history with back issues?

  • h2oface and Vanimal46 like this

#49 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Minnesota Twins Whine Line Host

  • Members
  • 9,735 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:37 AM

? The UCL tear was literally May's first arm injury in his career.


Did Will Smith erase your memories of 2016 like "Men in Black"?

He missed most of May, then was shut down for the season on August 6th because of his back issues.

#50 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:05 AM

 

Did Will Smith erase your memories of 2016 like "Men in Black"?

He missed most of May, then was shut down for the season on August 6th because of his back issues.

Eh, I don't really hold it against a guy when he experiences those kinds of issues while operating in a completely unfamiliar role that his body isn't trained for. And those back issues were isolated to 2016 so to me it doesn't qualify him as "injury prone." His health record prior to that season was quite phenomenal.

 

 

You lose Duffey or May and you lose a guy that didn't pitch last year and is no more than a hope this year and the 4th right hander out of the bullpen.

But I'm not assessing based on last year, I'm assessing based on their value to the franchise going forward. I realize this requires a good bit of subjectivity, and I get why people disagree based on 2017 outcomes, but Duffey and May are both highly capable arms under control for 3-4 more years. I think they'll both be big contributors to the staff during that span while Mauer is (hopefully) a marginal 2018 upgrade over what they'd otherwise run out at first base for 2018, and he also occupies about a quarter of their payroll. 


#51 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Minnesota Twins Whine Line Host

  • Members
  • 9,735 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:24 AM

Eh, I don't really hold it against a guy when he experiences those kinds of issues while operating in a completely unfamiliar role that his body isn't trained for. And those back issues were isolated to 2016 so to me it doesn't qualify him as "injury prone." His health record prior to that season was quite phenomenal.


There's plenty of examples throughout baseball where starters convert to relief without any health issues.

I agree prior to the last 2 seasons he was durable and healthy.

I still consider him injury prone missing 3 months and pitching ineffectively for 3 months in 2016. Plus all of 2017/part of 2018.

We can disagree and move on.
  • howieramone2 likes this

#52 Tomj14

Tomj14

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 433 posts

Posted 04 January 2018 - 01:25 PM

 

But I'm not assessing based on last year, I'm assessing based on their value to the franchise going forward. I realize this requires a good bit of subjectivity, and I get why people disagree based on 2017 outcomes, but Duffey and May are both highly capable arms under control for 3-4 more years. I think they'll both be big contributors to the staff during that span while Mauer is (hopefully) a marginal 2018 upgrade over what they'd otherwise run out at first base for 2018, and he also occupies about a quarter of their payroll. 

That fair and I am not trying argue, so based on that where does Pressly fit? His is a bit older and we have him for a year less I think, but it seems he has proven more than either of those two?I wonder if the Twins could only keep Duffey for Busentiz who would they take? I respect your opinion but when I think assets I think if would I rather have player A this year and going forward than Player B. Example I would take Littell and Thorpe going forward over Duffey, which IMO means they are better assets. Again love reading your stuff.

  • Nick Nelson and laloesch like this

#53 Lee-The-Twins-Fan

Lee-The-Twins-Fan

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 317 posts

Posted 04 January 2018 - 02:37 PM

 

Question for you: If the Twins suddenly didn't have Mauer available to them, how much worse off are they? Move Sano to first, start Escobar at 3rd, find a DH or just use Grossman. And then you've got an extra 23 mil to spend elsewhere. 

 

He's a fine player but he's just not indispensable to the franchise in any way at this point.

 

 

Other than maybe Byron Buxton, Brian Dozier, Ervin Santana and Jose Berrios, do we have anyone who's "Indispensable"? I would not argue that Mauer is indispensable, but I respectfully disagree with your premise; They would be much worse off without Mauer. He's not indispensable, but he is important - especially for his defense and his on-base skills.  

 

Sano does not have the defensive skills at 1B that Mauer has. He's fine at 3B, but not at 1B. Mauer digs balls out of the dirt and reaches high for balls thrown by other infielders. He makes Dozier, Polanco and Sano much better, because they know he will get their throws. 

 

On other teams, how many throws (that Mauer gets now) go down as throwing errors because the !B could not dig it out of the dirt? 

 

And who's going to replace his on-base ability, and his ability to hit with 2 strikes? 

 

Mauer may not be indispensable, but he's very important to the Twins. Has he been overpaid during his contract? Sure. But i'd be willing (if I were the Twins GM) to offer him three or four more years at $10-$12 million a year. He brings a lot of value to this team.

Edited by Lee-The-Twins-Fan, 04 January 2018 - 02:38 PM.

  • h2oface likes this

#54 laloesch

laloesch

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,614 posts

Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:28 AM

That fair and I am not trying argue, so based on that where does Pressly fit? His is a bit older and we have him for a year less I think, but it seems he has proven more than either of those two?I wonder if the Twins could only keep Duffey for Busentiz who would they take? I respect your opinion but when I think assets I think if would I rather have player A this year and going forward than Player B. Example I would take Littell and Thorpe going forward over Duffey, which IMO means they are better assets. Again love reading your stuff.


Was waiting for someone to post this. I think Thorpe and Littell deserve an honorable mention. Both pitched well in 2017.

#55 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:29 PM

 

That fair and I am not trying argue, so based on that where does Pressly fit? His is a bit older and we have him for a year less I think, but it seems he has proven more than either of those two?I wonder if the Twins could only keep Duffey for Busentiz who would they take? I respect your opinion but when I think assets I think if would I rather have player A this year and going forward than Player B. Example I would take Littell and Thorpe going forward over Duffey, which IMO means they are better assets. Again love reading your stuff.

Nothing wrong with those takes. They're very reasonable. I personally don't hold Pressly in quite the same regard as Duffey in terms of realistic upside from the bullpen, and I still view May as a quality starter candidate. Just need to see a little more from Busenitz, Littell and Thorpe although they have solid cases no doubt.  


#56 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:36 PM

 

Other than maybe Byron Buxton, Brian Dozier, Ervin Santana and Jose Berrios, do we have anyone who's "Indispensable"? I would not argue that Mauer is indispensable, but I respectfully disagree with your premise; They would be much worse off without Mauer. He's not indispensable, but he is important - especially for his defense and his on-base skills.  

In a vacuum, yes. But you on the open market you could acquire a top-tier younger player for Mauer's $23M, and you'd control him for more than one year. These are the primary factors in this evaluation. Mauer plays a position where offense is abundant, and defense is relatively less important, for a restricting price.

 

By no means am I trying to say Joe Mauer is worthless, or not an integral part of the 2018 lineup. This is a big picture type of analysis. 




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: eddie rosario, miguel sano, jose berrios, royce lewis, byron buxton