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Article: Photographer Accuses Miguel Sano Of Assault

miguel sano betsy bissen trevor plouffe trevor may
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#181 PseudoSABR

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:41 PM

 

And if you sued someone because they shouted "Show me your XXxX" your case would be thrown out of court in 15 seconds.  

 

YOu don't think sex with a minor causes harm? Speeding is a crime against public safety, that is the crime.  

 

My suggestion is that before you tell someone to "study law more", you know what you are talking about

1) Sexual harassment isn't a crime or necessarily a compensable tort claim.No ones suggested that.There are certainly times where sexual harassment would amount to a crime in some instances, and be compensable in a civil suit, in other instances. 

2) Sexual harassment is a fireable offense in nearly all professional work places., likely because of your employment contract. Go into a work place and yell your suggestion, and see how it goes over.  

3) If a 18 year old bangs a consenting 17 year-old classmate, I doubt there's much harm there. The point is there are plenty of behaviors which are criminalized that don't always cause harm, even if they might sometimes.  

4) I know what I'm talking about.PM me for my credentials. 

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#182 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 12:22 AM

The latest to stand accused is Aziz Ansari

 

I think this one touches on a lot of the issues discussed in this thread.

 

 

 


#183 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:58 AM

Atlantic article on Aziz Ansari.

 


#184 drjim

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 09:51 AM

 

Atlantic article on Aziz Ansari.

 

Really good article. "You guys are all the f****** same" really is a statement to ponder.

 

I don't have a ton of compassion for someone who keeps feeling burned doing the same thing over and over again, but the other thing that struck me in this article is that we may really, finally, be seeing a shift from the woman having to do the vast majority putting the brakes on, to now men will have to. A good, positive societal shift.

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#185 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:11 AM

 

Really good article. "You guys are all the f****** same" really is a statement to ponder.

 

I don't have a ton of compassion for someone who keeps feeling burned doing the same thing over and over again, but the other thing that struck me in this article is that we may really, finally, be seeing a shift from the woman having to do the vast majority putting the brakes on, to now men will have to. A good, positive societal shift.

 

Absolutely, we need to change the idea that you "keep pushing" as Ansari did.That's been pretty engrained for awhile in our interactions.Men need to be less pushy and put the brakes on more often.Men and women do what Aziz did, but the difference is men are more comfortable stopping unwanted advances by women of this sort, but not the reverse.

 

I think it's also deeply, deeply unfair for this to be characterized as an "assault" as it is being done in all the headlines.Aziz is guilty of being boorish or a pig, but he did not assault this person.I think it's important for the survival of the MeToo movement to draw a sharp distinction here or it may be a death nail.


#186 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:21 AM

 

Really good article. "You guys are all the f****** same" really is a statement to ponder.

 

I don't have a ton of compassion for someone who keeps feeling burned doing the same thing over and over again, but the other thing that struck me in this article is that we may really, finally, be seeing a shift from the woman having to do the vast majority putting the brakes on, to now men will have to. A good, positive societal shift.

 

Yeah I'm kinda uneasy about this one too. That statement does make you wonder.Also the way she went to a publication about this a year later with every lurid detail of the evening, after changing her mind that this was not just an awkward encounter but an assault.It does seem like this was a lot more about getting revenge on Ansari than on getting justice or changing the culture.

 

Also, neither gender should have to do the 'vast majority of putting on the brakes'.Both parties should have the same responsibility for clear, open communication and respecting what the other person tells them.This woman admits she was a willing participant in sexual activity with Ansari, but complains that he did not pick up on her "non-verbal cues" that she wasn't enthusiastic about it. I don't know what non-verbal cues she gave off, but his failure to read them does not make him a criminal.

 

 


#187 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:35 AM

 

Absolutely, we need to change the idea that you "keep pushing" as Ansari did.That's been pretty engrained for awhile in our interactions.Men need to be less pushy and put the brakes on more often.Men and women do what Aziz did, but the difference is men are more comfortable stopping unwanted advances by women of this sort, but not the reverse.

 

I think it's also deeply, deeply unfair for this to be characterized as an "assault" as it is being done in all the headlines.Aziz is guilty of being boorish or a pig, but he did not assault this person.I think it's important for the survival of the MeToo movement to draw a sharp distinction here or it may be a death nail.

 

To your last point, this is a perfect example of what we've been talking about when we say that it's important to distinguish between criminal and boorish behavior, and how damaging it is to conflate them.And it refutes the claim of those pushing back at the point that "nobody is saying those are the same thing".Well, look at all the "Ansari accused of sexual assault" headlines.

 

I think another way this happens is that there are these non-specific terms like "sexual misconduct" and "inappropriate behavior" thrown around."Sexual harassment", "assault" and "rape" are legal terms with specific definitions.There may be arguments in a given case whether the conduct at issue falls into those definitions, but they are clearly defined.

 

But "sexual misconduct" is a vague term used to encompass all sorts of bad behavior of vastly varying degrees by men towards women.

 

So when an article talks about the number of the men in the entertainment industry that have been accused of "sexual misconduct", then lists Weinsten and Ansari as examples, it creates a false impression of equivalency between them.

 

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#188 TheLeviathan

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:57 AM

The chatter online about this is really going strong.I think this was a provocative take.

 

A similar one from Vox.


#189 ashburyjohn

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 11:22 AM

The chatter online about this is really going strong.I think this was a provocative take.

 

A similar one from Vox.

We've reached the inevitable gray areas of the subject. Given how difficult interactions can be among humans, it's impossible for there not to be any.

 

None of the nuance, though, changes the essential message of the #metoo movement: make the default be to believe that the accuser has a story to tell. Notice that Ansari immediately confirmed the essence of the accusation. Actual false allegations appear to be very rare at this time; hopefully, that does not change.

 

It's clear that many men need to change their behavior. I don't think it's off the table, such as in the responses like Caitlin Flanagan's and Ashleigh Banfield's, to ask whether women should consider some corresponding tweaks to their social conventions too. But again, introducing nuance into the discussion doesn't change the underlying determination to make widespread hurting stop.

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#190 TheLeviathan

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 12:40 PM

 

We've reached the inevitable gray areas of the subject. Given how difficult interactions can be among humans, it's impossible for there not to be any.

 

None of the nuance, though, changes the essential message of the #metoo movement: make the default be to believe that the accuser has a story to tell. Notice that Ansari immediately confirmed the essence of the accusation. Actual false allegations appear to be very rare at this time; hopefully, that does not change.

 

It's clear that many men need to change their behavior. I don't think it's off the table, such as in the responses like Caitlin Flanagan's and Ashleigh Banfield's, to ask whether women should consider some corresponding tweaks to their social conventions too. But again, introducing nuance into the discussion doesn't change the underlying determination to make widespread hurting stop.

 

I'm glad it only took two pages for some acknowledgement that...gee, interactions aren't "simple".That inevitably grey areas will arise that threaten the momentum of the movement if handled poorly.If only someone had been trying to point that out.....Alas.

 

In any case...of course nuance doesn't change the point....but it might change our tactics a bit.That's the thing you and others appear to continue to miss.There is some need for defintions and what-not, but largely people agree on the "what".It's the "how" that matters."How" is what changes zeal into results and we need results from this movement.And that is where it is vital to be clear and nuanced before you get people abandoning the movement before it accomplishes anything other than a few tarnished careers.

 

I'm not sure what happened to Aziz Ansari Sunday night in many circles is the best way to have this conversation.He shouldn't be plastered all over every news site as having been accused of sexual assault.His actions are a reflection of a paradigm in need of changing, but (quite frankly) so are her actions.(Or lack thereof)We need to change the idea that men need to push and women are playing hard to get.We need women to be able to speak up and speak out and for men to hear that and respect it.But all parts of that are vital. 

 

That conversation is a tough, sensitive one that will buck long established cultural norms.Humiliating a couple men over it as a tactic to achieve that doesn't help.And the fissures that will be created (enflamed is probably a better description) in the wake of moments like this will be far more likely to kill this movement than anything else.  

Edited by TheLeviathan, 16 January 2018 - 12:42 PM.




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