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Article: Building A Super Bullpen

fernando rodney trevor hildenberger taylor rogers tyler jay jt chargois
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#41 Blackjack

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:15 AM

I think Falvine consider 2017 a fluke that the Twins made the wild card and are considering 2018 a 'let the young players develop year'. Buxton, Rosario, Kepler, Polanco, Berrios, Sano, all have lots of room for improvement and need to show that they can perform and stay healthy for a full year.They'll sort thru all the bull pen (and starting pitcher) arms this year. Then they can make some big signings for 2019. 

 

In the meantime they're improving their whole organization, hiring and firing, setting the Twins up for some long-term, sustainable success.Patience.

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#42 twinfan

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:22 AM

To me it doesn't take much to build a very good bullpen. It is harder to manage that bullpen so you know when to use them and you don't burn them out. If a major league pitcher cannot consistently throw 1 inning without giving up a run, he doesn't belong in the league. The strikeout has caused teams like the Yankees to be thought of as having a "super" bullpen. However, getting people out is most important. Had the Twins been able to bring Kintzler back to complement Rodney, that would have been great. Pressley is the one guy who has been an enigma. He should be very, very good but is not as yet. Hopefully 2018 will be his breakout year.


#43 Doomtints

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:26 AM

 

To me it doesn't take much to build a very good bullpen. It is harder to manage that bullpen so you know when to use them

 

This describes the problem the Twins have been stuck with for years. With all young, unproven guys in the bullpen, the Twins didn't know how to use the talent they had. Having an inexperienced manager didn't help.


#44 BJames

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:14 PM

If Presley doesn't learn to throw his cure for a strike, he'll never make it.He bounce it in the dirt every time an then has to come back with a meatball.Forget the pen this year and hope the bats win games!Give the young pen one more year and find a ACE or two. 


#45 Riverbrian

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:36 PM

I think Falvine consider 2017 a fluke that the Twins made the wild card


If they do. I want new guys running the front office immediately! :):)

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#46 Doctor Wu

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 06:59 AM

 

Rodney has had spurts of Ron Davis syndrome, but come on, this guy has had a very nice career with quality numbers, multiple All Star appearances and still brings it. Because hes not 28 and signed for 5 more years at a steal of a salary he's a bum? Perspective people!

Ah, the infamous Ron Davis syndrome! Maybe not as horrible as Steve Blass Disease, but nevertheless an ailment that makes longtimeTwins fans cringe! That aside, good points about Rodney. I'm not giddy over the signing, but hopefully he'll be a stabilizing presence in the closer's role. Then again ....


#47 Doctor Wu

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:03 AM

 

The market rates are often awful though. Outside of signing the elite guys like Chapman, Jansen and co., so many of those contracts don't work out, even in the short term. Last year Mike Dunn got 3 years and $19 million and was awful in year 1 , Brad Ziegler and Junichi Tazawa each got 2 years and a combined $28 million from the Marlins to put up ERA+ of 85 and 71 respectively. In 2016, Tony Sipp and Antonio Bastardo were guys lots of people on TD wanted and they have collectively flushed $23 million down the tank.

So very true! I vividly recall all the clamoring for Sipp and Bastardo that year, and look how that worked out. Or rather how it didn't. Signing free agent relief pitchers can be such a gamble. I'm more comfortable with what we have in the system already. On that note, what is the consensus on Trevor May for 2018? Will they try him in the bullpen or give him a shot as starter again?


#48 Riverbrian

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:51 AM

 

So very true! I vividly recall all the clamoring for Sipp and Bastardo that year, and look how that worked out. Or rather how it didn't. Signing free agent relief pitchers can be such a gamble. I'm more comfortable with what we have in the system already. On that note, what is the consensus on Trevor May for 2018? Will they try him in the bullpen or give him a shot as starter again?

 

This "too risky" thing is getting a little out of control. :)

 

There is risk when you sign any player to multi year contracts and the highways are littered with bad contracts. The percentages may or may not be higher in the bullpen but bad contracts are not unique to bullpen free agents... it is however... less painful from a cost standpoint. 

 

The Astros got burned for 18 million spread over 3 years signing Tony Sipp. They still won a world series and getting burned like that didn't stop them from spending even more this year with the signings of Joe Smith and Hector Rondon to two year deals. 

 

Would have been worse for the Astros if they signed Jason Heyward to an 8 year 184 Million Dollar deal. 

 

The Mets got burned for 12 million over two years signing Antonio Bastardo. It didn't stop them from spending even more money on Anthony Swarzak this year. 

 

Would have been worse for the Mets... if they signed Chris Davis to a 7 year 161 million dollar deal. 

 

The Tigers got burned for 11 million over two years signing Mark Lowe... I guess it is possible that that may have stopped them. They ain't spending money right now. 

 

However... it could have been worse for the Tigers... if they would have signed Jordan Zimmerman to a 5 year 110 million dollar deal.... wait... they did. 

 

There is simply risk and it can't be avoided... anytime you sign a player to a contract. The risk increases with each year you attach. 

 

If any GM's or Owners are risk adverse and afraid of signing a bad contract. They should get out of baseball and focus on death and taxes.:)

 

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#49 Riverbrian

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 01:34 PM

This post isn't intended to start a Terry Ryan debate. It isn't even to point out past mistakes or successes. 

 

It's simply to illustrate that it's about assets. It's about shopping at Dollar General for the past 5 years. 

 

Past 5 year outside bullpen acquisitions:

 

Rodney (Free Agent 1 year 4.5 million) 

Watson (Trade) 

Belisle (Free Agent 1 Year 2 Million) 

Breslow (minor league deal) 

Abad (minor league deal)

Kintzler (Minor league deal)

Boshers (minor league deal)

Graham (Rule 5)

Boyer (minor league deal)

Jepsen (Trade)

Cotts (Trade)

Pino (Minor League Deal)

Stephen Pryor (Trade)

Jason Adam (Trade)

 

Twins cost to acquire outside bullpen assets: 6.5 Million (all spent by Falvey and Lavine), Half Years of Brandon Kintzler, Kendrys Morales and Josh Willingham... Plus a Mid Range prospect with potential in Chih-Wei Hu and a bunch of minor league deals at the MLB minimum. 

 

Bullpen Assets trade acquisitions:

 

Willingham to Royals for Jason Adam

Morales to Mariners for Stephen Pryor

Graham to Yankees for PTBNL or Cash

Abad to Red Sox for Pat Light

Kintzler to Nats for Austin Watson

 

Most would agree that the Twins were in selling position at trade deadlines for 4 of the past 5 years. Yet didn't have bullpen assets to sell when all contenders are looking for them. 

 

When the Twins did find themselves in buying position... they paid a pretty heavy price. 

 

Bullpens need to be prioritized a little higher than Dollar General to prepare for good seasons and bad seasons. 

 

The Yankees got serious about their bullpen and built a super one. Watched the team fail with a super bullpen in 2016 and cashed it in... they acquired Gleyber Torres, Billy McKinney, Clint Frazier and Justus Sheffield. 

 

The Yankees then rebuilt another super bullpen and will use at least one of those acquired prospects to outbid the Twins for the services of Gerrit Cole. 

 

If the Yankees shock the world and fail in 2018 because Judge and Stanton strike out too much... They can trade Chapman, Betences, Robertson, Kahnle, Greene and Warren for more top 100 prospects. 

 

 

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#50 Shaitan

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 02:21 PM

Super Bullpen sounds like a marketing term, not a baseball term.


#51 gil4

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 11:44 PM

 

I thought Frankie was #47 for the Twins?

Yes, it is 47. I'm not sure if I typo'd or if I got my wires crossed between him and Johan when I wrote that.It is a 47 jersey (with the name).My next one will be a Carew jersey - 29 will never go out of style. 


#52 thegambler

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 07:07 PM

I always thought the Twins should have turned Liriano into a closer, rather than trade him for next to nothing. (Ok, we got Escobar). Liriano's stats first time through a lineup were amazing. When he started to get 2nd or 3rd time through the lineup, he suffered. We missed out.

#53 Brandon

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 08:12 PM

 

This post isn't intended to start a Terry Ryan debate. It isn't even to point out past mistakes or successes. 

 

It's simply to illustrate that it's about assets. It's about shopping at Dollar General for the past 5 years. 

 

Past 5 year outside bullpen acquisitions:

 

Rodney (Free Agent 1 year 4.5 million) 

Watson (Trade) 

Belisle (Free Agent 1 Year 2 Million) 

Breslow (minor league deal) 

Abad (minor league deal)

Kintzler (Minor league deal)

Boshers (minor league deal)

Graham (Rule 5)

Boyer (minor league deal)

Jepsen (Trade)

Cotts (Trade)

Pino (Minor League Deal)

Stephen Pryor (Trade)

Jason Adam (Trade)

 

Twins cost to acquire outside bullpen assets: 6.5 Million (all spent by Falvey and Lavine), Half Years of Brandon Kintzler, Kendrys Morales and Josh Willingham... Plus a Mid Range prospect with potential in Chih-Wei Hu and a bunch of minor league deals at the MLB minimum. 

 

Bullpen Assets trade acquisitions:

 

Willingham to Royals for Jason Adam

Morales to Mariners for Stephen Pryor

Graham to Yankees for PTBNL or Cash

Abad to Red Sox for Pat Light

Kintzler to Nats for Austin Watson

 

Most would agree that the Twins were in selling position at trade deadlines for 4 of the past 5 years. Yet didn't have bullpen assets to sell when all contenders are looking for them. 

 

When the Twins did find themselves in buying position... they paid a pretty heavy price. 

 

Bullpens need to be prioritized a little higher than Dollar General to prepare for good seasons and bad seasons. 

 

The Yankees got serious about their bullpen and built a super one. Watched the team fail with a super bullpen in 2016 and cashed it in... they acquired Gleyber Torres, Billy McKinney, Clint Frazier and Justus Sheffield. 

 

The Yankees then rebuilt another super bullpen and will use at least one of those acquired prospects to outbid the Twins for the services of Gerrit Cole. 

 

If the Yankees shock the world and fail in 2018 because Judge and Stanton strike out too much... They can trade Chapman, Betences, Robertson, Kahnle, Greene and Warren for more top 100 prospects. 

 

You also forgot Pressly rule 5.

 

Also quite a few of those in the dollar general bin have been good buys.No we can't get a top 100 prospect for them either but we didn't overpay for any of those relievers.  

 

It would be nice to have a few relievers like back in the day when we had Nathan, Guerrier, Rincon, ....

 

Well We just got Zach Duke and he is decent coming off of an injury.I don't hate this move but feel like we need one good reliever to sign.....Oh Well...Merry Christmas.  

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#54 Sconnie

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 05:44 PM

Super Bullpen sounds like a marketing term, not a baseball term.

ask the Rockies about that



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