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Jack Morris Elected to Hall of Fame

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#41 dbminn

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 02:48 PM

 

I keep hearing/reading people slam WAR as to why Morris wasnt making it in before. There are sooooo many old school reasons you can point to to explain why he didnt make it. No need to even mention WAR.

Like, for examples, for his career his ERA was only 5% better than league average. ERA is pretty old school. Or his low K/9 ration and his high BB/9 ratio. Or never winning a CY. All old school reasoning.

And,lets face it, the first 5 or so years on the ballot, newer things like WAR were barely mentioned, much less being used as some kind of barometer for HOF worthiness or individual season awards worthiness. Pretty sure Fangraphs was the first site to have a WAR stat and Fangraphs itself wasnt even in existence until Morris had been on the ballot for like 3 years.

 

He only needed to mention it once, included with other deconstructed metrics: "All have merit, and given that all of these metrics are organized coherently and are not subject to continuous logical fallacies and cronyism, all have more merit than does the current Hall’s member list."

 

They don't have more merit, IMO. Selection by the writers is itself part of the HoF history, as is the selection by veterans. They have merit on their own terms. 

 

I'm a fan of modern metrics and have no problem with the writers using them to support their HoF votes. But veterans have their place in the selection process. The history of selections has its place too. 

 

* - oops - quoted the wrong comment. See jimmers last response.

Edited by dbminn, 11 December 2017 - 02:55 PM.

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#42 gil4

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 02:55 PM

 

This will retire the conversations about whether or not Morris is worthy.

 

This will ensure the debate will continue long after everyone who saw him play is dead. If it got to the point where most of what was left of his memory was the numbers, the debate would have died away eventually if he wasn't in. 


#43 jimmer

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 03:26 PM

By the way, of the 16 members on the committee that selected Morris and Trammel, 6 were former players (all in the HOF).

Edited by jimmer, 11 December 2017 - 03:30 PM.

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#44 jkcarew

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 03:42 PM

 

A lot of pitchers on the outside looking in saying "if he got in why not me?"

 

No problem.Just go out and win a couple of world series if you haven't already...and make sure you're the MVP in one of them.And, oh yeah....work in one Game 7 10-inning Complete-Game Shutout...you know, where if you had given up a run at any point during the game, your team would have lost the World Series, but instead they won the World Series.If you've got about the same or slightly better numbers than Jack, this should put you over the hump.

 

There are a few different way's guys have made it to the hall...I don't have an issue with this one.And, it's not like he sucked otherwise.When he was playing, he was consistently and broadly considered to be among the best pitchers in the league.

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#45 Mike Sixel

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 03:53 PM

Morris had the most WINS of any pitcher in the entire decade of the 80's. 3 World Series rings/3 different teams. Ace of those teams. Bulldog. '91 Game 7. Yeah, he deserves it. Congrats Jack!


To be as good as Morris, radke would need to throw over a thousand more innings with an ERA of nearly six.. Plus, Morris insulted a woman reporter for being a woman. He does not deserve it, not even close.

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#46 Mike Sixel

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 03:55 PM

I think Jack pitched to the score a lot. In today’s game, he would have been taken out of games with big leads. But he was allowed to stay in and rack up innings, and often give up cheap, meaningless runs.

PS: In 7 career World Series starts, 4-2 with a 2.96 ERA, 3 CG. In 6 career World Series starts and one relief appearance, Don Drysdale had 3 wins and a 2.95 ERA. In 13 World Series starts, “big game” Andy Pettitte had an ERA north of 4.

Don’t kid yourselves, October still matters to the voters.


Studies show that isn't true. He gave up runs early just as much as late.
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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#47 jkcarew

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:14 PM

While the 80's don't seem that long ago for some of us, they were, in fact, a completely different era in terms of baseball.  Starters were not charged with "missing bats"  (meanwhile, at least two-thirds of the lineups were actually trying to put the ball in play)...instead, they were expected to work fast and eat up as many innings as possible while keeping their team in the game.Jack did this as good, or better, than anyone else in baseball for the better part of a decade.

 

IMO, there is a Hall argument to be made with his regular-season performances, given the era.Having said that, I don't think it's a particularly strong argument.I think the WS performances pushed him over the top.And the one he had with the Twins was historical.It just was.

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#48 gunnarthor

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:21 PM

 

To be as good as Morris, radke would need to throw over a thousand more innings with an ERA of nearly six.. Plus, Morris insulted a woman reporter for being a woman. He does not deserve it, not even close.

Interesting, insulting a woman reporter = no entry to HOF. Where does Bonds' PED use and DV allegations put him? How about Clemens' PED use orhis alleged affair with a 15 year old girl? How about Smoltz' comments on same sex marriage?  

 

As for the Radke comparison (and others), I suspect if Morris had thrown 30-40 less innings a year, his rate stats would be far better. For his career, Radke threw 2400 innings, 113 ERA+ and amassed 38 fWAR. From 79-88, Morris threw 2400 innings, put up a 114 ERA+ and amassed 40 fWAR. (Yes, bWAR has different valuations of those innings). He then threw another 1300+ innings.

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#49 drjim

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:26 PM

Interesting, insulting a woman reporter = no entry to HOF. Where does Bonds' PED use and DV allegations put him? How about Clemens' PED use or his alleged affair with a 15 year old girl? How about Smoltz' comments on same sex marriage?

As for the Radke comparison (and others), I suspect if Morris had thrown 30-40 less innings a year, his rate stats would be far better. For his career, Radke threw 2400 innings, 113 ERA+ and amassed 38 fWAR. From 79-88, Morris threw 2400 innings, put up a 114 ERA+ and amassed 40 fWAR. (Yes, bWAR has different valuations of those innings). He then threw another 1300+ innings.


I agree the rate stat comparisons over such a large difference in innings is disingenuous.
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Papers...business papers.

#50 jimmer

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:27 PM

Studies show that isn't true. He gave up runs early just as much as late.

his ERA in innings 7-9 is lower than innings 1-3 and 4-6. So pitching later in games helped his career ERA, not hindered.

#51 h2oface

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:37 PM

 

Good for them.They might now put a premium to their autographs.

 

I just don't get the need for a back door to the hall of fame.

 

I like the alternate avenue. I think writers are often pompous and misguided, and for the Hall of Fame, often out of date, or in reverse of that, too new and not studied on the history of the game. Morris was, for a decade, a great pitcher/player/personality of the game. I am glad he is in the HOF.


#52 h2oface

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:39 PM

 

Interesting, insulting a woman reporter = no entry to HOF. 

 

Hey.... not exactly the same type of event, but it didn't stop Kirby Puckett.

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#53 Pius Jefferson

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:47 PM

 

Morris had the most WINS of any pitcher in the entire decade of the 80's. 3 World Series rings/3 different teams. Ace of those teams. Bulldog. '91 Game 7. Yeah, he deserves it. Congrats Jack!

 

Not sure why that one specific ten year period means anything.Good for Morris but Hall of Fame is an individual career achievement. Not the Ace of the Blue Jays.That's all he's got going for him.

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Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong.


#54 h2oface

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:51 PM

 

But he was a winner! Or wait ...

 

Most losses in the 1980s
126 Jim Clancy
122 Frank Tanana
119 Jack Morris

 

Morris had just the 18th best W-L% (.577) among pitchers with at least 100 decisions in the 80s. That was also his career mark, which is nearly identical to Bartolo Colon's. Somebody brought up Sandy Koufax earlier, his W-L% was .655. Johan Santana's was .641. Just sayin'.

 

 

Most losses in the history of MLB

1 Cy Young - 316
2 Pud Galvin - 308
3 Nolan Ryan - 292
4 Walter Johnson - 279
5 Phil Niekro - 274
6 Gaylord Perry - 265
7 Don Sutton - 256
8 Jack Powell - 254
9 Eppa Rixey - 251
10 Bert Blyleven - 250

 

58 Jack Morris - 186

 

...all in HOF except Jack Powell

 

What a bunch of losers!

Edited by h2oface, 11 December 2017 - 04:55 PM.


#55 Mike Sixel

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:21 PM

I don't have an issue with PED use, we've covered that ground, though I am sure most here don't agree.

 

As for merit.....I will stop posting on this thread. Some of you are happy he made it, so I'll just say congrats and move on.

 

 

Edited by Mike Sixel, 11 December 2017 - 05:22 PM.

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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#56 Mike Sixel

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:24 PM

 

Interesting, insulting a woman reporter = no entry to HOF. 

 

If only that was all I posted. As I said, I'm happy that you all are happy.....

Edited by Mike Sixel, 11 December 2017 - 05:24 PM.

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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#57 yarnivek1972

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:36 PM

Studies show that isn't true. He gave up runs early just as much as late.


I’m sure he did. But what I am saying is that he gave up meaningless runs in late innings, at least anecdotaly and based on his one season when I saw pretty much all of his starts. If the game was close and he was struggling, he was lifted like any other guy would be. But, if the game was in hand, he was often allowed to save the bullpen at the expense of his ERA.

#58 jimmer

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:55 PM

 

I’m sure he did. But what I am saying is that he gave up meaningless runs in late innings, at least anecdotaly and based on his one season when I saw pretty much all of his starts. If the game was close and he was struggling, he was lifted like any other guy would be. But, if the game was in hand, he was often allowed to save the bullpen at the expense of his ERA.

what season was that? '91?

Edited by jimmer, 11 December 2017 - 05:56 PM.


#59 yarnivek1972

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 06:01 PM

what season was that? '91?


Yes. Not all. But I probably saw 30 of his starts that season.

#60 jimmer

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 06:05 PM

 

Yes. Not all. But I probably saw 30 of his starts that season.

That year, his ERA in innings 1-3 was 4.35, in innings 4-6 it was 2.75, in innings 7-9 it was 2.82.Pitching late didn't hurt his ERA, but rather it helped his ERA (since his ERA that year was 3.43).He only gave up 16 ERs from innings 7-9.

 

Edited by jimmer, 11 December 2017 - 06:07 PM.