102 replies to this topic

[jimmer]

 

Prospects/Suspects- Call them what you will. Sometimes you have to take a chance and either trade 1-2 or put 1-2 in the rotation. I still say we will get something out of Hughes this season. I also wonder if Gibson turned the corner. We would not have made the playoffs without his contribution. Are there any free agents we can afford? How much would Fiers cost? 

We wouldn't have made the playoffs without his contribution?How do you figure?I mean, technically, everyone who played made a contribution, so in that sense, sure.But his contribution was mostly about stinking up the joint almost the whole season.For as well as he pitched for a month down the stretch, also have to include how he did the rest of the time cause all games count the same duringthe season. There are plenty of pitchers who could have contributed like he did and we still get in.

 

71 SP in the AL had 150 more IP, he ranked 60th in FIP and WAR. For the ERA lovers, he ranked 64th.He was 85th in WHIP.

 

He DID manage to get a lot of run support.90 pitchers in baseball had 140 or more IP, he got the most run support: 6.62.Next highest was 6.21 (and that was the NL).The next highest in the AL was Cole Hamels and 6.13.

 

And he got demoted.

Edited by jimmer, 06 December 2017 - 04:57 PM.

[dgwills]

 

It happens, esp. if they do not have plus to plus plus stuff.Just like Liam Hendiks whose 2.89 ERA, 1.079 WIP, 8.1 K/9, 2.4 BB/9 career MiLB numbers are in the ballpark of Kyle Hendricks's (2.94 ERA, 1.098 WIP, 7.7 K/9, 2.2 BB/9) and Stephen Gonsalves's (2.39 ERA, 1.087 WIP, 9.7 K/9, 3.3 BB/9). 

 

For every Kyle, there is a Liam.

There was I time that I thought they were the same guy and that Liam just turned things around after leaving the Twin's. Led to a couple of confusing conversations  with my friends that are cubs fans.

[Shane Wahl]

I could actually imagine both Slegers and Enns ending up in the MLB pen eventually.

 

[yarnivek1972]

So you want to have three holes instead of two?

Gibson is not great by any means, but it is a cheap contract and there are not a ton of alternatives floating around. It's a no brainer gamble for the Twins to take.

If the Twins don’t have 5 pitchers better than Kyle Gibson, they aren’t legitimate title contenders IMO.

[Thrylos]

 

I'd think if he starts the season on the DL, he'd go to Extended Spring training first, no?

 

Not necessarily.If he starts the season on the DL as soon as he is game ready, he will probably make some rehab starts likely with the Miracle and then with Chattanooga or Rochester.  

 

One important point:May has another option left, which can be useful to eg. help him build endurance in Rochester, even if he is not crisp with his pitches and would be a liability if in the majors (where it counts.)

[SydneyTwinsFan]

After a nightmare start, Gibson was pretty solid for the last 4 months of the season:

 

From 1 June - 21 GS; 121.1 IP; 4.23 ERA; 7.1 K/9; 2.9 BB/9

 

Over the same period:

Santana - 22 GS; 134.1 IP; 4.15 ERA; 7.4 K/9; 2.2 BB/9

Berrios - 21 GS; 119.0 IP; 4.16 ERA; 8.5 K/9; 3.0 BB/9

 

Of course games played in April and May count just of much, and yes the sample size is a bit arbitrary. I don't know whether the last 4 months represents a "turning of the corner" or a sample size fluke, but to argue Gibson wasn't a contributor over a long period of the season is a bit unfair IMO.

[drjim]

If the Twins don’t have 5 pitchers better than Kyle Gibson, they aren’t legitimate title contenders IMO.

That may be true. But they should probably focus on getting three pitchers before they worry about getting rid of Gibson.

I would still say last year showed that they can make the playoffs with Gibson in the rotation. Probably don't want him starting in the postseason though.

[old nurse]

 

Prospects/Suspects- Call them what you will. Sometimes you have to take a chance and either trade 1-2 or put 1-2 in the rotation. I still say we will get something out of Hughes this season. I also wonder if Gibson turned the corner. We would not have made the playoffs without his contribution. Are there any free agents we can afford? How much would Fiers cost? 

Fiers will probably get a 2 year deal worth about 20 million. If he is your free agent starter added he wouldcost any shot at competing in the playoffs.If you signed him because you traded Gibson, he only costs a little moneythat could have been better spent elsewhere.

[yarnivek1972]

That may be true. But they should probably focus on getting three pitchers before they worry about getting rid of Gibson.

I would still say last year showed that they can make the playoffs with Gibson in the rotation. Probably don't want him starting in the postseason though.

I would say there was a very clear line in the AL this past year. The Twins were not nearly as good as the other 4 teams in the playoffs. Not nearly. And even further behind the top two.

So, yeah, if no one else in the AL gets better they can make the playoffs with Gibson in the rotation. Didn’t say they couldn’t. But making the playoffs doesn’t make a team a legitimate title contender. The pretenders are pretty quickly dismissed in the current playoff format.

Edited by yarnivek1972, 06 December 2017 - 09:11 PM.

[Linus]

I guess I'm surprised that anybody thinks the Twins system has too many good pitchers. I'll believe it when they show they should be in the big leagues.

[Sconnie]

Not necessarily. If he starts the season on the DL as soon as he is game ready, he will probably make some rehab starts likely with the Miracle and then with Chattanooga or Rochester.

One important point: May has another option left, which can be useful to eg. help him build endurance in Rochester, even if he is not crisp with his pitches and would be a liability if in the majors (where it counts.)

i forgot he still has an option. Hate to burn it in a recovery effort. It’d be nice to keep it in your pocket in case he’s still not 100% next year, worst case scenario, though he’s apparently throwing 100 so good sign.

Good stuff Thrylos

[nicksaviking]

 

Like Gibson got the memo about his pitching in 2015, and Hughes got the memo about his pitching in 2014, and how Suzuki got the memo about his hitting in 2014? Remember Suzuki's mechanics fix, and Hughes fix cause of different pitch selection/grip and new home park?

 

Considering the past front office lived and died by pitch-to-contact methods and made little attempt to intentionally increase MLB strikeout numbers, I seriously doubt they sent out any memos telling Gibson to lessen his sinker usage.

[KirbyDome89]

I've resigned myself to the fact that Gibson will pitch for the Twins in 2018. It's far from ideal, but he's going to start games; they just don't have enough proven arms to toss him out, and I get that. What I don't understand is the optimism surrounding his spot in the rotation. We heard before 17' that he had made mechanical changes and he was turning a corner. We heard before the 16' that the 2015 version of Gibson was real and he was going to build off of that. Clearly I have Gibson fatigue, but at what point can we just call him inconsistent/below average rotational filler and move on.

[drjim]

 

I've resigned myself to the fact that Gibson will pitch for the Twins in 2018. It's far from ideal, but he's going to start games; they just don't have enough proven arms to toss him out, and I get that. What I don't understand is the optimism surrounding his spot in the rotation. We heard before 17' that he had made mechanical changes and he was turning a corner. We heard before the 16' that the 2015 version of Gibson was real and he was going to build off of that. Clearly I have Gibson fatigue, but at what point can we just call him inconsistent/below average rotational filler and move on.

 

I personally expect him to pitch pretty close to what he has the last couple of years. But considering the state of the rotation and the dearth of readily available options to acquire, I think if he makes 30 starts at 160 innings of similar performance that is easily worth what he is about to get in arbitration.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I personally expect him to pitch pretty close to what he has the last couple of years. But considering the state of the rotation and the dearth of readily available options to acquire, I think if he makes 30 starts at 160 innings of similar performance that is easily worth what he is about to get in arbitration.

Fair enough, I wouldn't be shocked to see him fall somewhere around where he was the past two seasons. Arbitration obviously would reflect that so it certainly wouldn't be wasted money. Honestly, I'm not concerned about the money at all, or even the fact he's still with the team. When I said "move on," I meant distance ourselves from the idea a light has suddenly turned on for him. 

[Doomtints]

None of these guys are #1s/#2s, or probably even #3s. They Twins still need to pick someone up. The Santana train could derail, leaving the team with Berrios and....?

 

The minor league depth helps for restocking the #4/#5 guys, but the team doesn't have enough top of the rotation guys who are ready to play ball.

[mikelink45]

The only problem that counts is when wehave too many quality starting pitchers for the five major league slots. 

[Riverbrian]

Because I'm such a deep guy.

 

It's easy for me to say: "Depth... I love it". 

[jimmer]

 

Because I'm such a deep guy.

 

It's easy for me to say: "Depth... I love it". 

I love all the depth we have at the 5th spot in the rotation.Three guys on the MLB roster all deserving of the title with lots of depth in the minors that can fill the same spot. :-)

 

Lest we forget the multiple pitchers that the excuse, 'Well for a #5 guy he's not bad'(or variations of the same theme) was used.That excuse SHOULD only be able to be used on one guy in a rotation at a time, but our depth makes it possible to use that excuse for bad performance by multiple pitchers.For years.

Edited by jimmer, 07 December 2017 - 10:30 PM.

[Riverbrian]

 

I love all the depth we have at the 5th spot in the rotation.Three guys on the MLB roster all deserving of the title with lots of depth in the minors that can fill the same spot. :-)

 

They have to fill the same spot over and over again. Pitchers get hurt... sometimes in bunches.

 

I don't do the #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 thing like some do.  

 

I'm simply looking for arms who can hang a zero on occasion and give the offense a chance to win a game and a team with depth has about 10 of those guys and use all of them during the course of a season.

 

Doing the number thing... The past decade... we have been trotting 7's and 8's to fill in the gaps. 

 

I remember throwing Blackburn over and over again because we had nobody else. I remember PJ Walters, Pedro Hernandez. 

 

I remember having nobody to perform better than Vance Worley. I remember Yohan Pino and Logan Darnell. 

 

Call them 5th spot guys... it's OK with me as long as they are not 8th spot guys.Having potential guys who can actually get outs with Aaron Slegers, Felix Jorge, Dietrich Enns, Stephen Gonsalves, Zack Littell and Fernando Romero in Rochester... allows us to choose from whoever is doing best when they are needed and allows us to ignore who is struggling. 

 

Pat Dean won't be coming up because we have nobody else. 

 

Depth... I love It... I've been waiting for it.