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Pavano Done

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#41 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:03 PM

I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......

Nice first post. As much as the Twins medical staff seems to leave much to be desired; it's hard for me to believe that their culpability is so obvious or so legitimate, and that the Twins would be so willfully ignorant and stubborn to stick with an ineffective staff out of some myopic notion of loyalty.


And yet the circumstantial evidence continues to ooze from the horrible results, as well as from former and current players' testimony of their bad experiences with said staff/FO.

#42 John Bonnes

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:06 PM

http://www.twincitie...wn-season-after

Shipley's story has a bit more detail. From one of Pavano's quotes it sounds like there was more than one injury and he and the trainer did get the shoulder rehabbed, but still had pain. Does anybody remember when Pavano might have been hit on the arm by a come-backer causing the bruise? In spring training?

Hard to see how the Twins will be interested in bringing him back unless he is willing to take substantially less in guaranteed salary.


Pretty good story by Shipley.

#43 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:07 PM

I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......

Nice first post. As much as the Twins medical staff seems to leave much to be desired; it's hard for me to believe that their culpability is so obvious or so legitimate, and that the Twins would be so willfully ignorant and stubborn to stick with an ineffective staff out of some myopic notion of loyalty.


Not sure if the Twins FO notion of loyalty is myopic, perhaps just a shared fealty to ineptitude?

#44 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:18 PM

http://www.twincitie...wn-season-after

Shipley's story has a bit more detail. From one of Pavano's quotes it sounds like there was more than one injury and he and the trainer did get the shoulder rehabbed, but still had pain. Does anybody remember when Pavano might have been hit on the arm by a come-backer causing the bruise? In spring training?

Hard to see how the Twins will be interested in bringing him back unless he is willing to take substantially less in guaranteed salary.


Pretty good story by Shipley.


Good story, yes, but as many questions that are answered, at least as many more come up. One trip to specialist Dr. Altchek in New York City solves what apparently wasn't figured out by the entire unnamed "Twins medical staff". Twins Assistant Trainer Tony Leo is praised for "working his butt off" on Pavano's rehab, but all for naught and apparently improperly overseen by the "Head Trainer" when no results were forthcoming due to working with an improper diagnosis in the first place. If this was just one isolated incident, it could be chalked up to an unfortunate isolated event, but this has happened over and over and over and the Twins FO and their apologists have little solid ground left to stand on to plead their case.

#45 Thrylos

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:21 PM

A couple of interesting quotes from Shipley's article. Really good stuff (and emphasis mine) :

An MRI and examination by specialist Dr. David Altchek of the pitcher's sore right shoulder, bothering Pavano since spring training, revealed a bruise on his humerus bone that requires rest alone to heal.


and down a little more

Pavano, 36, had trouble reaching full velocity on his pitches throughout spring training. He and the team seemed to believe that if he kept pitching, he'd have a breakthrough from the shoulder pain and weakness.


A couple of things are really scary here:

- First of all he was hurt since ST (Like Baker - pretty much but different part of his body) and they kept trotting him around so basically giving up on every fifth game.
- This whole attitude that if something is hurt because of a repetitive motion and hurts while you are repeating that motion, if you keep doing it will hurt less, is Medieval. Like if you are running barefoot on gravel I am sure that it will hurt less at some point. Eventually. Keep doing it son... it builds character.

This goes beyond the medical staff. It shows front office and pitching coach and manager attitudes as well.

Edited by Thrylos, 21 August 2012 - 05:24 PM.

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#46 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:28 PM

[quote name='thrylos98']A couple of interesting quotes from Shipley's article. Really good stuff (and emphasis mine) :

[quote]An MRI and examination by specialist Dr. David Altchek of the pitcher's sore right shoulder, bothering Pavano since spring training, revealed a bruise on his humerus bone that requires rest alone to heal.[/quote]

and down a little more

[quote]Pavano, 36, had trouble reaching full velocity on his pitches throughout spring training. He and the team seemed to believe that if he kept pitching, he'd have a breakthrough from the shoulder pain and weakness.[/quote]

A couple of things are really scary here:

- First of all he was hurt since ST (Like Baker - pretty much but different part of his body) and they kept trotting him around so basically giving up on every fifth game.
- This whole attitude that if something is hurt because of a repetitive motion and hurts while you are repeating that motion, if you keep doing it will hurt less, is Medieval. Like if you are running barefoot on gravel I am sure that it will hurt less at some point. Eventually. Keep doing it son... it builds character.

This goes beyond the medical staff. It shows front office and pitching coach and manager attitudes as well.[/QUOTE]

i'm sure there's a metric for DL time somewhere, surely the Twins have to be at the top for 2011-12. What does this systemically dire situation say to the potential free agents and their respective agents who might be considering the Twins as a potential fit in the offseason?

#47 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:41 PM

Pavano went on to say he'd take the blame. As he should. After all, ANY Twins player who has so much as a hangnail and doesn't get several opinions outside of the Twins so-called medical staff should accept the blame for just being stupid.



Well said!!!!!

#48 jorgie5150

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:48 PM

Dr._Riviera.jpg

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Edited by jorgie5150, 21 August 2012 - 06:31 PM.
too dumb to post pics


#49 snepp

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:12 PM

If you can't laugh at the ridiculous state of the Twins medical staff, the diagnosis must be a bruised humorous.


I'm going to have to recommend rest and rehabilitation for that.

#50 Highabove

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:15 PM

The Twins Medical Staff should really update their methods of Treatment.

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#51 DPJ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:21 PM

Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?

#52 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:43 PM

Who the hell needs sitcoms and daytime dramas if you have the Minnesota Twins... You can't make this S%@t up!

#53 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:44 PM

Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?


Please tell me that is satire. Give me the The Onion or Harvard Lampoon link. please!

#54 Thrylos

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:48 PM

Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?


Ryan should have traded him at the deadline... huge mistake.
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#55 Highabove

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:52 PM

There are stand up MRI'S which really helps people with claustrophobia.

I don't get it.

Edited by Highabove, 21 August 2012 - 07:21 PM.


#56 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

#57 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:09 PM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


Did you read through to the end?:

"The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned."

#58 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:11 PM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


I would hope we're not doing that, but at the same time if we're paying a guy several million dollars a year to play, we have the right to ask the player to assist in whatever it takes to get them back healthy and on the field. Certainly we can try and work with him and fine a way to get the medical information we need that accomodates his phobia, and it sounds like Span is trying to be cooperative, but I can understand the fan's frustrations when a story like this gets out.

#59 DaveW

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:18 PM

Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?

As someone who just had an MRI on their head, let me tell you, those things ****ing suck. I had to do an open MRI to keep from freaking out, and even then I needed my GF in the roof to give me support, plus had to keep eyes closed the whole time. I'm not claustrophobic otherwise.

It's actually quite common that people can't do face first MRI's, I'm surprised they couldn't get him to an open one though.

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:18 PM

The obvious continued implications about the medical staff aside...

Whether or not Pavano was able to return to this year's rotation for a few Sept starts was and is meaningless. He was never going to be part of another Twins team.