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#61 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:21 PM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


I would hope we're not doing that, but at the same time if we're paying a guy several million dollars a year to play, we have the right to ask the player to assist in whatever it takes to get them back healthy and on the field. Certainly we can try and work with him and fine a way to get the medical information we need that accomodates his phobia, and it sounds like Span is trying to be cooperative, but I can understand the fan's frustrations when a story like this gets out.

The next step would be for the doctors to put him under, but if that is the case typically they need a days lead time or so.

#62 Highabove

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:23 PM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.

#63 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:27 PM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.


They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.

#64 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:29 PM

[quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave'][quote name='Highabove'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?[/QUOTE]

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.[/QUOTE]

They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.[/QUOTE]

Except that the phobia issue likely came up during his first MRI on Monday.

#65 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:33 PM

[quote name='jokin'][quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave'][quote name='Highabove'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?[/QUOTE]

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.[/QUOTE]

They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.[/QUOTE]

Except that the phobia issue likely came up during his first MRI on Monday.[/QUOTE]
Why does it matter though? If he is to sore/injured to play, then he is to sore/injured to play.

#66 Willihammer

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:55 PM

Shipley's story has a bit more detail. From one of Pavano's quotes it sounds like there was more than one injury and he and the trainer did get the shoulder rehabbed, but still had pain. Does anybody remember when Pavano might have been hit on the arm by a come-backer causing the bruise? In spring training?


I for one can't.

In defense of the medical staff, the Twins have suffered 2 unique injuries which the staff is not likely to mistake ever again.

First is Moon Shot Scott.
Initial diagnosis: Flexor tendon
Final diagnosis: Ulnar Collateral Ligament. Very close proximity, these two.

Its easy to image Moon coming to the doctors, saying "its sore here" and pointing to his elbow just off the UCL. Maybe, maybe not, did that happen however. More investigation is needed certainly.

Second is Pava no-no Mutombo. Obviously the "its hurts here" arrow pointed particularly high on the Humerus bone, very close if not exactly on the shoulder. Now if you were a doctor, and would you suspect a bruised bone or a much more common, shoulder injury? I think at 36 and following two consecutive 220+ IP seasons, the ligaments are more suspect, not the bones.

In conclusion, maybe some of you expect the Twins medical staff to be Dr. House for their players. I think they have encountered a strange and unlikely string of pitcher injuries that caused mis-diagnoses which they are unlikely to repeat.

#67 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:00 PM

It should be noted yet again, that even the 2nd opinion doctor didn't know Baker needed Tommy John surgery until they actually cut the arm open.

#68 denarded

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:17 PM

One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??


have you compared that to the other mlb teams?
Wikipedia is for suckers

#69 Highabove

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:21 PM

One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??


have you compared that to the other mlb teams?


Yes I have, Start with the rest of the Division.

Edited by Highabove, 21 August 2012 - 08:31 PM.


#70 TheLeviathan

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:51 PM

If you question that the medical staff can be this bad because no team would stick with such ineffective garbage for this long to their own detriment: I offer Nick Blackburn as a rebuttal.

#71 Kobs

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:58 PM

I don't know that you can chalk up Baker as a misdiagnosis because of the Tommy John surgery, they didn't decide to do that until they opened him up. I'm curious as to whether most veteran pitchers look like they could use a new ligament when you get in there.

#72 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 05:47 AM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.


And what does that have to do with my statement again?

#73 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:39 AM

I don't know that you can chalk up Baker as a misdiagnosis because of the Tommy John surgery, they didn't decide to do that until they opened him up. I'm curious as to whether most veteran pitchers look like they could use a new ligament when you get in there.


Given the stress put on the arm during pitching, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if most vets "needed" TJ surgery.

#74 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:40 AM

[quote name='jokin'][quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave'][quote name='Highabove'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?[/QUOTE]

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.[/QUOTE]

They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.[/QUOTE]

Except that the phobia issue likely came up during his first MRI on Monday.[/QUOTE]

Which is probably why he had the Valium on hand. Given his concussion problems, this isn't Span's first go-round in the MRI machine. When it comes to a phobia, some days are probably better than others (and the meds work better). This was probably just one of the bad days. I'm not going to blame a guy for having a crippling phobia of an MRI machine. While I've never had an MRI, I've heard plenty of horror stories from people who don't like enclosed spaces. From what I know of the situation, it's not terribly uncommon.

#75 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:35 AM

[quote name='Highabove'][quote name='denarded'][quote name='Highabove']One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??[/QUOTE]

have you compared that to the other mlb teams?[/QUOTE]

Yes I have, Start with the rest of the Division.[/QUOTE]
The Royals have had 6 guys get TJS this season.

Your move.

#76 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:14 AM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.



There are options here, and typically hospitals have both. My brother in law is an MRI tech and has operated both types of units. Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...

that said, standup/open MRI's exist, but they aren't exactly common. My brother in law got to operate one in Fort Wayne, IN... There's only 1 in the entire city, and it was brand new.

#77 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:24 AM

Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...


It was on the DL.

Somebody had to say it.

#78 chuchadoro

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:33 AM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


I think it's a pretty reasonable expectation for a professional athlete to get the necessary diagnostics done on an injury. Athletes can disagree with their team about the course of treatment, not about getting diagnostic work done when said player has been wasting a spot on the roster for a week. Span is not dangling from the top of the IDS Center washing windows or being asked to climb into a box full of snakes. He's being asked to have a very common, safe test done to determine if the Twins should continue to waste another bench spot. What if Plouffe wakes up tomorrow and has a newly manifested aerophobia? I guess we should pat him on the back and say "It's ok, big guy. You can just play the home games.".

#79 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:43 AM

[quote name='chuchadoro'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?[/QUOTE]

I think it's a pretty reasonable expectation for a professional athlete to get the necessary diagnostics done on an injury. Athletes can disagree with their team about the course of treatment, not about getting diagnostic work done when said player has been wasting a spot on the roster for a week. Span is not dangling from the top of the IDS Center washing windows or being asked to climb into a box full of snakes. He's being asked to have a very common, safe test done to determine if the Twins should continue to waste another bench spot. What if Plouffe wakes up tomorrow and has a newly manifested aerophobia? I guess we should pat him on the back and say "It's ok, big guy. You can just play the home games.".[/QUOTE]

[quote]Phobia: phobia (from the Greek: φόβος, [I]Phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is, when used in the context of clinical psychology, a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational. In the event the phobia cannot be avoided entirely the sufferer will endure the situation or object with markeddistress and significant interference in social or occupational activities.[/quote]

It's not a matter of just "bucking up" and getting through it. Phobias are real mental issues based on an irrational fear of something. Span has had countless MRIs in the past yet we've never heard of this happening so I'm not going to chalk this up to "not trying" or just "not wanting to do something". He apparently tried to calm himself down and it didn't work. I'm not going to fault the guy for that.

#80 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:14 AM

[quote name='diehardtwinsfan'][quote name='Highabove'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?[/QUOTE]

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.[/QUOTE]


There are options here, and typically hospitals have both. My brother in law is an MRI tech and has operated both types of units. Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...

that said, standup/open MRI's exist, but they aren't exactly common. My brother in law got to operate one in Fort Wayne, IN... There's only 1 in the entire city, and it was brand new.[/QUOTE]

Yup, Standup MRI's are very rare. "Open" MRI's are more common, but still somewhat rare. And even those are pretty intense for people with even mild claustrophobic issues.

It has nothing to do with "toughing" it out or anything of that nature, some people just can't deal with that ****.

#81 DAM DC Twins Fans

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:15 AM

[quote name='Brock Beauchamp'][quote name='chuchadoro'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?[/QUOTE]


It's not a matter of just "bucking up" and getting through it. Phobias are real mental issues based on an irrational fear of something. Span has had countless MRIs in the past yet we've never heard of this happening so I'm not going to chalk this up to "not trying" or just "not wanting to do something". He apparently tried to calm himself down and it didn't work. I'm not going to fault the guy for that.[/QUOTE]

As one of many who have a fear of flying--lets not mock phobias. I get on a plane every couple of years--thats all I can bear to do--always a non-stop flight (less takeoffs and landings) only to Europe, if I need to go somewhere in the states I drive. (And yes post-9/11 airport security makes it worse-I always look and am nervous to the screeners).

If Span has gone thru multiple MRIs being claustrophobic, good for him, dont get on his case when he finally couldnt do it.

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:21 AM

Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...


It was on the DL.

Somebody had to say it.


Actually it wasnt on the DL. It had a vague but "mild" electrical malfunction, and the maintenance staff was convinced that a few days of rest and rehab would let the problem solve itself, saving the time and cost of having expensive electricians come in to diagnose and fix the problem.

#83 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:22 AM

As one of many who have a fear of flying--lets not mock phobias. I get on a plane every couple of years--thats all I can bear to do--always a non-stop flight (less takeoffs and landings) only to Europe, if I need to go somewhere in the states I drive. (And yes post-9/11 airport security makes it worse-I always look and am nervous to the screeners).

If Span has gone thru multiple MRIs being claustrophobic, good for him, dont get on his case when he finally couldnt do it.


I have a near-crippling fear of heights. I get dizzy, lose my balance, and a host of other things that scare the hell out of me. Do I know this is not a rational response? Absolutely. Does that change anything? Absolutely not. I've done over 180MPH on a motorcycle, raced cars at over 150MPH. Didn't scare me a lick.

But put me on a three story roof and I lose my freakin' mind. Explain that to me.

#84 Riverbrian

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:27 AM

[quote name='DAM DC Twins Fans'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp'][quote name='chuchadoro'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?[/QUOTE]


It's not a matter of just "bucking up" and getting through it. Phobias are real mental issues based on an irrational fear of something. Span has had countless MRIs in the past yet we've never heard of this happening so I'm not going to chalk this up to "not trying" or just "not wanting to do something". He apparently tried to calm himself down and it didn't work. I'm not going to fault the guy for that.[/QUOTE]

As one of many who have a fear of flying--lets not mock phobias. I get on a plane every couple of years--thats all I can bear to do--always a non-stop flight (less takeoffs and landings) only to Europe, if I need to go somewhere in the states I drive. (And yes post-9/11 airport security makes it worse-I always look and am nervous to the screeners).

If Span has gone thru multiple MRIs being claustrophobic, good for him, dont get on his case when he finally couldnt do it.[/QUOTE]

I agree... People are People... I can't stand the sound of styrofoam being rubbed together. It literally brings me to my knees. Don't know if there is an official phobia for it but I have it. Sometimes I have to leave the room at X-mas time. If Span has an affliction of sorts. It's easy to think of him as a human being and respect that.

My problem with flying is that I always end up sitting next to a guy who is 500 pounds and he spills over to my seat. It's uncanny how often that happens so I also prefer to drive.

#85 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:28 AM

Actually it wasnt on the DL. It had a vague but "mild" electrical malfunction, and the maintenance staff was convinced that a few days of rest and rehab would let the problem solve itself, saving the time and cost of having expensive electricians come in to diagnose and fix the problem.


Or maybe the MRI machine had electrophobia.

#86 chuchadoro

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


What if Plouffe wakes up tomorrow and has a newly manifested aerophobia? I guess we should pat him on the back and say "It's ok, big guy. You can just play the home games.".


Anyone want to tackle this hypothetical?

#87 chuchadoro

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:24 AM

Just to get this straight: Rational fears affecting performance (i.e. running into walls, beanballs, getting "Swish-ioka-ed") are unacceptable. Irrational fears (MRIs, planes, heights, clowns) are part of the fallibility of humans and exempt from criticism.

#88 Willihammer

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:25 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.

#89 chuchadoro

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:32 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.


Maybe I could have phrased it like "Plouffe's aerophobia became uncontrollable" but now we're nitpicking. Royce White's aerophobia has been well documented and he's still "wasting his time" pursuing an NBA career.

#90 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:54 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.


Maybe I could have phrased it like "Plouffe's aerophobia became uncontrollable" but now we're nitpicking. Royce White's aerophobia has been well documented and he's still "wasting his time" pursuing an NBA career.


Simple, if a guy has a phobia of flying, you pay him less money based on performance and ability to play. You also try to find medication and/or therapy to relieve the situation. I still don't see why you publicly rip the guy for having that phobia. What good is that going to do? Are you going to shame the guy into getting over his irrational fears? You realize how a phobia and mental illness in general works, right?