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International signing scandal force Brave FO resignations

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#61 Mike Sixel

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 11:35 AM

Drafts are great for teams wanting to control freedom and wages. They suck for employees.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#62 drjim

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 11:49 AM

 

Drafts are great for teams wanting to control freedom and wages. They suck for employees.

 

True. But it also helps keep a little bit of competitive balance.

 

Players do seem to be a little more able to control their destination in baseball, and the restriction on wages is a little overstated for anyone who is not a top talent. The high end guys get hosed, most of the other players do just fine.

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#63 birdwatcher

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 12:18 PM

 

I think this is a little overstated (as is the draft). The cap certainly impacts a few guys at the top end, but really doesn't make much of a difference for the vast majority of players. 

 

At least with the International signings they have the freedom to choose their team.

 

 

I guess my viewpoint for years now has been the problem isn't so much with the system as it is with those organizations and individuals cheating and conniving. I'm not sure what can be done to ameliorate the exploitation problem and the self-serving buscones other than to police the process more thoroughly and stop all the enabling behavior on the part of MLB. I think I favor tweaking the current system and then enforcing rules and dishing out severe penalties.

 

I wish I felt certain that the organizations who have been hurt by all the cheaters were in an ideal position to exact proper restitution from the cheaters.

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#64 biggentleben

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 06:41 PM

 

I am in favor of a draft, but doubt it will happen. 

This does not come as a surprise, Latin America is another area with a lot of corruption, part of the system.The Braves were just far worse offenders than most of the other clubs.This will end up being at least 3 organizations and I suspect more will be found in the next year.  

 

The Braves really did nothing other teams don't do. The big issue was leaving paper trails...which is blatantly stupid.

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#65 biggentleben

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 06:49 PM

 

I really don't know if there is an easy solution to limiting the role of trainers and how they control the flow of talent.

 

...and in the end, not much will change in Latin America until this changes. The Braves got in trouble not because they were talking with players too early and setting deals with players too young (the complaint from MLB actually leaves the Maitan signing clean - which isn't surprising). What was found by the league was that the Braves bundled a player in the 16 y/o market with a player who was not in that market in order to sign the younger player for less money. That should have made the Braves ineligible to sign anyone for more than 300K in 2016, so any guy they did sign for more than 300K in that class was set free. The Braves issue that cost them players was done through a trainer rather than through a player.

Edited by biggentleben, 22 November 2017 - 06:57 PM.

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#66 nicksaviking

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 07:11 PM

The Braves really did nothing other teams don't do. The big issue was leaving paper trails...which is blatantly stupid.

We don't know that. I don't think MLB would be doing this to Atlanta if there was a chance they would later have to slap all 30 teams with the same penalties. The Braves transgressions had to have been perticularly egregious in comparison to other actions taking place.
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#67 Mike Sixel

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 07:22 PM

The Braves really did nothing other teams don't do. The big issue was leaving paper trails...which is blatantly stupid.


We don't know that at all. No details have come out at all. It could have been much worse than what other teams do.
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I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#68 drjim

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:35 PM

 

...and in the end, not much will change in Latin America until this changes. The Braves got in trouble not because they were talking with players too early and setting deals with players too young (the complaint from MLB actually leaves the Maitan signing clean - which isn't surprising). What was found by the league was that the Braves bundled a player in the 16 y/o market with a player who was not in that market in order to sign the younger player for less money. That should have made the Braves ineligible to sign anyone for more than 300K in 2016, so any guy they did sign for more than 300K in that class was set free. The Braves issue that cost them players was done through a trainer rather than through a player.

 

I don't think the bundle was for giggles or as a favor to the trainers, it was to blatantly skirt the yearly spending caps. That is why they got so hammered, it was a clear, obvious and egregious violation of the collective bargaining agreement. I don't agree that many other teams did this.

 

The early deals were not the problem.

Papers...business papers.

#69 drjim

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:36 PM

 

We don't know that. I don't think MLB would be doing this to Atlanta if there was a chance they would later have to slap all 30 teams with the same penalties. The Braves transgressions had to have been perticularly egregious in comparison to other actions taking place.

 

Agree with this. The systematic skirting of spending caps does not seem like it was a common activity of other teams.

Papers...business papers.

#70 glunn

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 10:23 PM

http://bleacherrepor...paign=editorial

 

"Manfred ... announced 13 players the Braves signed illegally during the 2015-17 international free-agent period have been released from their contracts, making them eligible to sign with any team."

 

I hope that the Twins are all over this.

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#71 beckmt

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Posted Yesterday, 12:50 AM

 

http://bleacherrepor...paign=editorial

 

"Manfred ... announced 13 players the Braves signed illegally during the 2015-17 international free-agent period have been released from their contracts, making them eligible to sign with any team."

 

I hope that the Twins are all over this.

This is a one time chance for a talent upgrade, they are a long ways away, but would be nice to get one of the front line talents set free here.

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#72 Mike Sixel

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Posted Yesterday, 07:08 PM

Lifetime ban for giving players too much money. Hall of Fame plaque for making sure teams get more money....

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#73 drjim

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Posted Yesterday, 08:34 PM

Lifetime ban for giving players too much money. Hall of Fame plaque for making sure teams get more money....


Paying the players too much money wasn't the problem.
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Papers...business papers.

#74 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted Today, 08:13 AM

We don't know that at all. No details have come out at all. It could have been much worse than what other teams do.


According to a writer friend of mine it wasn’t that they were doing something no other teams were doing it was the degree to which they did it and the blatant manner in which it was done that basically forced mlb to crack down and hard. Although how hard was it really. He suggested that losing those prospects won’t hurt the Braves too much in the long run but the real message is to FO personnel with Coppollella being banned. Everyone tries to find ways to cheat to get an edge until it goes too far and it can’t be avoided anymore.

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#75 beckmt

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Posted Today, 08:28 AM

 

According to a writer friend of mine it wasn’t that they were doing something no other teams were doing it was the degree to which they did it and the blatant manner in which it was done that basically forced mlb to crack down and hard. Although how hard was it really. He suggested that losing those prospects won’t hurt the Braves too much in the long run but the real message is to FO personnel with Coppollella being banned. Everyone tries to find ways to cheat to get an edge until it goes too far and it can’t be avoided anymore.

Of those 13 prospects odds are that no more than 1 - 3 become major league ballplayers, so you are correct.Nice point to bring up.  

The real point is that this will benefit the teams that played by the rules (like I suspect the Twins did). Leveling the playing field is not a bad thing.

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#76 drjim

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Posted Today, 08:35 AM

According to a writer friend of mine it wasn’t that they were doing something no other teams were doing it was the degree to which they did it and the blatant manner in which it was done that basically forced mlb to crack down and hard. Although how hard was it really. He suggested that losing those prospects won’t hurt the Braves too much in the long run but the real message is to FO personnel with Coppollella being banned. Everyone tries to find ways to cheat to get an edge until it goes too far and it can’t be avoided anymore.


From reading the report, it seems mlb was appropriately surgical in stripping prospects. They declared free agents the prospects they acquired through manipulating the spending caps (and the one draft pick extra benefits) and handcuffed the org for a couple years going forward.

Don't know how they could justify stripping away other legitimately acquired prospects.
Papers...business papers.

#77 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted Today, 08:57 AM

From reading the report, it seems mlb was appropriately surgical in stripping prospects. They declared free agents the prospects they acquired through manipulating the spending caps (and the one draft pick extra benefits) and handcuffed the org for a couple years going forward.
Don't know how they could justify stripping away other legitimately acquired prospects.

I never said they weren’t appropriate, but that in the long run, it isn’t going to hurt the Braves as badly as it could another team given the Braves’ system, that they could absorb the blow a little better. But it is a big message to FOs nonetheless, especially with the banning of Coppellella. My conversation with this friend then segued into Joe Morgan’s statements (on steroids and the HoF) into a more general conversation of cheating and how in some way it’s always prevelant, that some are always looking for that ‘edge’ and then that edge pushes the line until it becomes a wide-spread problem when action is needed. What the Braves did was to push that line too far and MLB was, in some ways, forced to respond to activities that all teams were doing on some level.

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#78 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted Today, 09:10 AM

Of those 13 prospects odds are that no more than 1 - 3 become major league ballplayers, so you are correct. Nice point to bring up.
The real point is that this will benefit the teams that played by the rules (like I suspect the Twins did). Leveling the playing field is not a bad thing.

Yes, exactly. But to be clear, it was more my writer firend’s point. As I mentioned in my most recent post, this friend and I had quite the baseball conversation yesterday, and our conversation eventually segued into the overall of cheating, that some are always looking for that edge and when it starts pushing the line, action is taken. And that’s what this is. It wasn’t, as Ben pointed out many posts ago, that the Braves weren’t doing anything that others weren’t, just that they pushed it too far and too blatantly.

“Concern yourself not with what is right and what is wrong but with what is important.” ~Unknown