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#1 Doomtints

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:51 AM

I'm a little confused about the team's narrative on Sano's injury, particularly Molitor's.  

 

First there were questions of his conditioning, which ignored the fact that he has always been a giant for his age. He clearly works out, and works out a lot.

 

Then, every few days, Molitor would come out with a statement with a surprise that Sano wasn't ready yet.

 

The original injury report always said that Sano was expected to be back at the end of September. If the team put this on the injury report, why did they play this game of acting surprised that he wasn't ready every few days?

 

The team updated the injury report yesterday, stating that he is not expected back until the playoffs, if not next year. That's fine, but that's only a couple of days different from "the end of September."

 

This isn't the first time Sano has been treated weirdly by the Twins and/or Molitor. How can an organization be so clueless about who Sano is? It's right there in front of them. Let the kid DH. Sew up the DH position with an elite bat for the next ten years. Win games. Enough with the clownish decisions regarding the team's best bat.

 

The Twins debuted Sano as a DH but someone, apparently Molitor, didn't want a young player DHing. He wanted him out there doing fielding drills with the rest of the team. This decision is more about CONTROL than it is about WINNING. DH the kid, Twins, it's time to grow up at a team.

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#2 Mike Sixel

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:55 AM

I agree with everything there, except the DH part.....IMO, he's still a 3B (next year, when healthy).

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#3 mazeville

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:57 AM

Please show the link where you're getting the original injury report said he'd be back at the end of September.

 

As I recall, the original injury report indicated that he'd be out for only a little while. He certainly wasn't supposed to be out this month. Possible I might be wrong. But I do not recall reading "end of September."

 

Sano's "conditioning" is not great right now. He's playing at 285 pounds or so. That makes it more difficult to recover from an injury like this. He's always been "large," but that doesn't mean he can't improve his conditioning to be in better shape. He's a professional athlete, for crying out loud.

 

They could DH the dude, but if he hits the ball he still has to run. And having an injured leg makes it more difficult to hit. It's not that simple.

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#4 howieramone2

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:31 AM

I was shocked at how much Sano improved defensively at 3B this season. I referred to him as Brooks Sano last season. Let him play wherever he wants and yes, the rule of thumb is you would much prefer not to DH a young player exclusively.

 

Kudos for whoever worked with Sano on his defense.

Edited by ChiTownTwinsFan, 20 September 2017 - 10:03 AM.

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#5 yarnivek1972

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:48 AM

I was shocked at how much Sano improved defensively at 3B this season. I referred to him as Brooks Sano last season. Let him play wherever he wants and yes, the rule of thumb is you would much prefer not to DH a young player exclusively.

Kudos for whoever worked with Sano on his defense.


Yes, he was definitely beyond horrid last year. I know error total isn't an end all, be all stat. But he's had 7 in 79 games this year. That's kind of a high number. It obviously projects to 14 in 162 games. Last year, Sano had 15 errors in just 42 starts at 3b.

I'm looking at fangraphs data on him defensively. I'm not sure I can accept what it seems to be suggesting. Overall, it says Sano had a 2.7 UZR/150 last year and has a -1.9 this year. Somehow, he had a range rating of 7.8 which was enough to compensate for his horrendous error rate. But this year, his range rate is -1.5.

But then I look further at the Inside Edge numbers. It shows him getting to a higher percentage of balls this year compared with last year with the exception of the "even" category. The difference in that category is 41.2 vs 50%.


So, how can Sano be getting to a higher pct of balls, yet have a lower range rating?
If someone who knows more about how fangraphs does it's computations can answer that, I would legitimately like to know.

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#6 Kwak

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:49 AM

I read where "...his timing will be off"  or something like that.  Or was it?  "We can't waste ABs"... . Or, is it Escobar is providing lots of offense and defense (like more that Sano) and there is no need to jeopardize that while the team is in a battle for a playoff position?  I think I saw a statistic showing Escobar with 7 HRs (so far) in September and was one of the HR hitters this month.  Perhaps Molitor doesn't want to risk success just to put a "rusty" Sano back in the line-up where he might screw things up?


#7 Doubles

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:49 AM

 

I'm a little confused about the team's narrative on Sano's injury, particularly Molitor's.  

 

First there were questions of his conditioning, which ignored the fact that he has always been a giant for his age. He clearly works out, and works out a lot.

 

Then, every few days, Molitor would come out with a statement with a surprise that Sano wasn't ready yet.

 

The original injury report always said that Sano was expected to be back at the end of September. If the team put this on the injury report, why did they play this game of acting surprised that he wasn't ready every few days?

 

The team updated the injury report yesterday, stating that he is not expected back until the playoffs, if not next year. That's fine, but that's only a couple of days different from "the end of September."

 

This isn't the first time Sano has been treated weirdly by the Twins and/or Molitor. How can an organization be so clueless about who Sano is? It's right there in front of them. Let the kid DH. Sew up the DH position with an elite bat for the next ten years. Win games. Enough with the clownish decisions regarding the team's best bat.

 

The Twins debuted Sano as a DH but someone, apparently Molitor, didn't want a young player DHing. He wanted him out there doing fielding drills with the rest of the team. This decision is more about CONTROL than it is about WINNING. DH the kid, Twins, it's time to grow up at a team.

Not sure where you got the end of September as to when the Sano was expected back.  Sano went on the 10-day DL, when, August 21st?  Why would they put him on the 10-day DL is he wasn't expected back until the end of September?  The regular season ends on Oct. 1st.  Saying he wouldn't be expected back until then would effectively put him out for the season, with an outside shot at returning for the playoffs.

 

It's not too late for Sano to get himself into the shape necessary to be a great third baseman.  I submit he was already a good third baseman this season, even at whatever weight he was playing at.  And he's definitely more valuable playing third base than he would be playing first base.  And playing in the field makes him way more valuable than relegating him to DH.  I don't understand why anyone would think that's an acceptable solution for Sano at the ripe old age of 24 years old. 

Edited by Doubles, 20 September 2017 - 09:50 AM.

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#8 Doubles

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:54 AM

If you're at all interested in Sano and his future with the team, I encourage you to take a step back and check out this article from Star Tribune's LaVelle E. Neale.  Published almost one year ago (Sept. 23) to the day:

 

http://www.startribu...o-go/394527381/

 

I'll hang up & listen.

Edited by Doubles, 20 September 2017 - 09:54 AM.


#9 spycake

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:59 AM

 

The original injury report always said that Sano was expected to be back at the end of September. If the team put this on the injury report, why did they play this game of acting surprised that he wasn't ready every few days?

No.  As others have mentioned, there was no such timeline. They have continually hoped to have him back within 10 days or so.  Here's an article from the day he went on the DL (August 21):

 

http://m.mlb.com/new...d-on-10-day-dl/

 

 

 

The club is hopeful he could return within 10 days, but it will have to see how his shin responds in the next few days.

"I would think the fact it intensified in a short period that the reverse of that can be true," Molitor said. "But it's something about how when he returns it's something we'll have to continue to look at. We might have to DH him more. Those types of things."

 


#10 Respy

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:20 AM

To the best of my knowledge, I don't recall anyone official stating when they expected him back.  Regarding the injury, I'm no doctor, but I had a similar injury in high school.  Sano has a 'stress reaction' in his shin. Mine was never officially diagnosed, because X-Ray didn't reveal anything, but that's kind of the point of a stress reaction: It's a precursor to a bone fracture, that can't be observed because it's too small. It can be in the muscle near the bone, in the bone tissue, or the bone itself.  It needs to heal 'enough' so that it doesn't get worse when he performs baseball activities (which he's not there yet).  But, considering you can't see it in the first place, the only thing to do is give it time and keep testing it.  He keeps reporting soreness after activities, so his is not healed enough yet.

 

Honestly at this point I hope the Twins can clinch the Wild Card spot and have a game or two to give Sano a chance to work on his timing during worthless at bats, before the Wild Card game.  You can expect that if he plays again this year, it will be at DH only and not at third base.  

Edited by Respy, 20 September 2017 - 10:21 AM.


#11 Doubles

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:44 AM

Here are some interesting nuggets from the LaVelle story from a year ago that I linked earlier.  

 

First, the headline: "Miguel Sano promises to do better this offseason but Twins know 'he has a ways to go' "

 

One of the building blocks to the Twins’ future, Sano said Thursday that he’s thought a lot about what has happened this year and wants to take the necessary steps to be more than what he’s been.

 

“My plans for next year are to work harder during the offseason, try to lose weight and come back next year and play the whole season at third base,” Sano said.

 

Hmm, interesting.  Two out of three didn't happen, and I don't have the knowledge to speak of the third.

 

If this sounds similar to what he said nearly a year ago, it is. Sano wanted to lose 20 pounds last offseason but only lost a few by the time he reported to spring training.

 

Teammates, from spring training into the regular season, have had to stay on him about getting in his workouts.

 

This is concerning, at a minimum.  Maybe this is the point I hope things about 'being a pro,' and maturing as a player will eventually happen with Sano.  A year later, these questions seem more prevalent than ever.

 

Sano, at one point this season, was pushing 280 pounds. He was 276 in late July. He said on Thursday that he’s been 268-270 recently.

 

“The team doesn’t want me to lose that much,” Sano said. “They want me to lose 10. But I’m going to lose 20.”

 

Direct quote from Sano talking about his weight.  Actions speak louder.

 

“We all know it is going to be a big part of my thoughts going forward, about how we can keep him on the field for 140 to 150 games,” Twins manager Paul Molitor said “He’s an unique body type. He’s going to have to find a way to do that, and that has to deal with the day-to-day things he has to deal with, including being ready when he comes into camp.”

 

Anyone remember if Sano was said to have reported to camp in good shape this spring?  I honestly can't recall.  Interesting to hear the manager's thoughts with some time since he said that.

 

“I hope that the time in New York is well spent and that he stays focused on what he needs to do,” Twins interim general manager Rob Antony said. “That’s not the easiest place to maintain focus.”

 

There's your concern from Twins management right there.

 

“I didn’t hit good enough,” Sano said. “I don’t feel it’s a good season for me this year. But I’m going to try to make an adjustment about my weight and my swing. When I get back to the Dominican I’m going to work really hard with the pitchers and hit breaking balls better.”

 

There it is, from the man himself.

 

“I think he’s maturing, but he still has a ways to go,” Antony said. “I think he thought it was just going to happen because he has so much talent. It doesn’t happen without the work, the dedication, the focus.

 

“I think his intentions are good. I’m not sure he always showed the ability to follow through on what he knows is the right thing to do.’’

 

Some pretty frontal criticism from the front office right there.  So, nearly 365 days later, does the front office feel any better about Sano?  I will be watching very curiously to see how this plays out.

Edited by Doubles, 20 September 2017 - 10:45 AM.

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#12 Dantes929

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 11:01 AM

The ONLY way it is acceptable for Sano to DH full time is if he is active while the team is on the field ie stationary bike or taking swings in the cage. Sitting on the bench while on defense is not going to protect his health unless you consider the fluke TJ injury three years ago. He is more likely to be able to run to first base without injury if he has been active rather than sitting on the bench.

Don't Sweat the Small Stuff ... and it's all small stuff.


#13 SweetOne69

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 11:17 AM

 

Not sure where you got the end of September as to when the Sano was expected back.  Sano went on the 10-day DL, when, August 21st?  Why would they put him on the 10-day DL is he wasn't expected back until the end of September?  The regular season ends on Oct. 1st.  Saying he wouldn't be expected back until then would effectively put him out for the season, with an outside shot at returning for the playoffs.

 

There is really no other option than the 10-day DL.You can only put a player on the 60-day DL when the 40-man roster is full.When you put a player on the 60-day DL you have to replace his 40-man spot immediately.

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#14 drjim

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 11:29 AM

 

Here are some interesting nuggets from the LaVelle story from a year ago that I linked earlier.  

 

First, the headline: "Miguel Sano promises to do better this offseason but Twins know 'he has a ways to go' "

 

One of the building blocks to the Twins’ future, Sano said Thursday that he’s thought a lot about what has happened this year and wants to take the necessary steps to be more than what he’s been.

 

“My plans for next year are to work harder during the offseason, try to lose weight and come back next year and play the whole season at third base,” Sano said.

 

Hmm, interesting.  Two out of three didn't happen, and I don't have the knowledge to speak of the third.

 

If this sounds similar to what he said nearly a year ago, it is. Sano wanted to lose 20 pounds last offseason but only lost a few by the time he reported to spring training.

 

Teammates, from spring training into the regular season, have had to stay on him about getting in his workouts.

 

This is concerning, at a minimum.  Maybe this is the point I hope things about 'being a pro,' and maturing as a player will eventually happen with Sano.  A year later, these questions seem more prevalent than ever.

 

Sano, at one point this season, was pushing 280 pounds. He was 276 in late July. He said on Thursday that he’s been 268-270 recently.

 

“The team doesn’t want me to lose that much,” Sano said. “They want me to lose 10. But I’m going to lose 20.”

 

Direct quote from Sano talking about his weight.  Actions speak louder.

 

“We all know it is going to be a big part of my thoughts going forward, about how we can keep him on the field for 140 to 150 games,” Twins manager Paul Molitor said “He’s an unique body type. He’s going to have to find a way to do that, and that has to deal with the day-to-day things he has to deal with, including being ready when he comes into camp.”

 

Anyone remember if Sano was said to have reported to camp in good shape this spring?  I honestly can't recall.  Interesting to hear the manager's thoughts with some time since he said that.

 

“I hope that the time in New York is well spent and that he stays focused on what he needs to do,” Twins interim general manager Rob Antony said. “That’s not the easiest place to maintain focus.”

 

There's your concern from Twins management right there.

 

“I didn’t hit good enough,” Sano said. “I don’t feel it’s a good season for me this year. But I’m going to try to make an adjustment about my weight and my swing. When I get back to the Dominican I’m going to work really hard with the pitchers and hit breaking balls better.”

 

There it is, from the man himself.

 

“I think he’s maturing, but he still has a ways to go,” Antony said. “I think he thought it was just going to happen because he has so much talent. It doesn’t happen without the work, the dedication, the focus.

 

“I think his intentions are good. I’m not sure he always showed the ability to follow through on what he knows is the right thing to do.’’

 

Some pretty frontal criticism from the front office right there.  So, nearly 365 days later, does the front office feel any better about Sano?  I will be watching very curiously to see how this plays out.

 

If Souhan is to believed (and I know that's controversial) I suspect the front office doesn't feel a whole lot better about him right now.

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#15 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 11:43 AM

I wonder what it would be like for this team to make a postseason without one of its five best players injured.

It’d be nice to see just once.
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#16 Mike Sixel

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 11:55 AM

 

I wonder what it would be like for this team to make a postseason without one of its five best players injured.

It’d be nice to see just once.

 

boring, like being able to get off the tee every time. Who needs that /s

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#17 spycake

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:09 PM

 

I wonder what it would be like for this team to make a postseason without one of its five best players injured.

It’d be nice to see just once.

2002 and 2003 happened!

 

2004 would have been nice to have rookie Mauer -- I'm not sure his batting stats would have remained so high if he played the whole year, but he probably could have cracked our top 5 in bWAR.  Henry Blanco contributed RBI in games 2 and 4 that postseason too, so it wasn't all bad!

 

2006 we missed Liriano, but we laid an egg in games 1 and 2 behind solid starting pitching anyway, not sure it would have mattered.

 

2009 and 2010, we missed Morneau.  Interestingly he was a much better hitter in 2010 than he was in 2009, although we may have missed him less in 2010 -- we just moved Cuddy to 1B, put Thome at DH, and had Kubel-Young in the outfield corners.  2009 was trickier, as Young wasn't very good and it put guys like Harris and Morales at DH. Ideally, with Morneau in September, we could have had Baker start game 1 instead of game 163 too.

 

I know it's fun to play the "what if" game, but I don't think injuries were much responsible for the Twins recent postseason record.  It's just too overwhelmingly bad.

 

And I'm not sure losing Sano for this postseason would matter much either -- since April, he was running a 109 wRC+, which isn't much higher than his replacements season marks (Grossman 104, Vargas 98, Escobar 93).

Edited by spycake, 20 September 2017 - 12:16 PM.

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#18 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:10 PM

 

2002 and 2003 happened!

 

2004 would have been nice to have rookie Mauer -- I'm not sure his batting stats would have remained so high if he played the whole year, but he probably could have cracked our top 5 in bWAR.  Henry Blanco contributed RBI in games 2 and 4 that postseason too, so it wasn't all bad!

 

2006 we missed Liriano, but we laid an egg in games 1 and 2 behind solid starting pitching anyway, not sure it would have mattered.

 

2009 and 2010, we missed Morneau.  Interestingly he was a much better hitter in 2010 than he was in 2009, although we may have missed him less in 2010 -- we just moved Cuddy to 1B, put Thome at DH, and had Kubel-Young in the outfield corners.  2009 was trickier, as Young wasn't very good and it put guys like Harris and Morales at DH. Ideally, with Morneau in September, we could have had Baker start game 1 instead of game 163 too.

 

I know it's fun to play the "what if" game, but I don't think injuries were much responsible for the Twins recent postseason record.  It's just too overwhelmingly bad.

Oh, I don't blame their postseason failures entirely on the injuries but it sure could have gone differently without the team's best players going down.

 

And I just want to see what this team is actually capable of doing, not what they're capable of doing without a 10 fWAR Morneau or a 45 fWAR Liriano.

 

You want to see the best players in the postseason. The Twins haven't been able to field that team in a decade and a half.


#19 DaveW

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 02:15 PM

The ONLY and I mean ONLY chance the Twins have to actually win the world series is for their lineup to get WHITE hot during the playoffs, it's going to be damn hard to begin with, but without Sano in the lineup? Damn near impossible. They should be doing whatever they can to get him back in the lineup, I don't really mind if he struggles for a game or two.

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#20 Doomtints

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 02:58 PM

 

The ONLY and I mean ONLY chance the Twins have to actually win the world series is for their lineup to get WHITE hot during the playoffs, it's going to be damn hard to begin with, but without Sano in the lineup? Damn near impossible. They should be doing whatever they can to get him back in the lineup, I don't really mind if he struggles for a game or two.

 

They Twins have no chance at the WS. This doesn't mean they shouldn't shoot for the stars. The Twins have played well because there are so many bad teams this year, there are 10 good teams and 20 teams that aren't. There is no middle to speak of. No one can say with a straight face that Twins pitching has been good this year, yet they lead the pack of crappy teams.

 

The AL has 4 good teams and the rest are not very good. With 5 playoff teams, the bottom seed will not be a good team.

 

The NL has 6 good teams (7 if you're feeling generous about the Cardinals) and the rest are not very good.  One team, maybe two teams, will miss out, but the rest of the NL can be comfortable with the thought that they didn't make the playoffs because they suck.

Edited by Doomtints, 20 September 2017 - 03:02 PM.

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