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Twins fire Dougie Baseball

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#41 nicksaviking

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 11:46 PM

Wanted to pass along a few things I shared on Twitter. This is just me connecting some dots, I have no idea if there's anything to this ... but,
 
I remembered this story from last year in which Stephen Gonsalves kinda sold out Dougie for breaking an org rule/philosophy at the time. 
 
"I was going out with 91 pitches, and I think normally there's a Twins rule that you're not allowed to start an inning after 85 pitches," Gonsalves said. "Doug was confident in me and I appreciate that. I was waiting, watching him out of the corner of my eye in the dugout. He walked by and was sitting by the water jug, taking little glances at me."
 
That got me thinking about who he was most responsible for protecting this year. Lachlan Wells, who's still only 20, threw over 100 pitches in three-straight outings in late June. He missed all of July and most of August with a flexor mass strain. There was also a stretch in late August where Doug had Lewis Thorpe, who of course missed the prior two seasons, throw 97, 100 and 101 pitches in consecutive starts.
 
There's no questioning Doug was a winner and his players loved him, but I wouldn't be surprised if his dismissal has something to do with failure to adhere to team guidelines regarding starting pitchers. Again, just a complete guess. Really tough to come up with any other potential reasons/conspiracy theories :)


Sounds like he should be a major conference college coach.

If your recollection is true, he's lucky he didn't get canned mid season.
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#42 RaoulDuke

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:43 AM

I think they are going to clean the organization of the purely old school mentality guys, so they can install the kind of system that led to the development of the Indians pitching staff.This is what they were brought in for and I am happy to see it begin to happen.

 

Dougie Baseball was a good minor league manager and has some real Twins nostalgia tied to him but I am ok with them moving on from guys in the Ron Gardenhire mold.  

 

It sounds mean but I am also very excited to see the pitching coordinator (and anyone else who had anything to do with the development of Twins pitchers in the last decade) go.Bring on the new school analytic approach! 

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#43 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:31 AM

I know this may sound harsh but... good.

 

The way people rave about Mientkiewicz, you'd think he's Joe Maddon. My understanding is that Dougie doesn't only avoid sabremetric-based analysis, he's often hostile toward the idea. His comments over the years have led me to believe he's simply not going to come around on the topic, which means he's no longer a fit for the organization.

 

Adapt or die. If you're not going to play ball with the new front office's vision for the future, you have no place in the organization. This team had a development problem and I'm not going to cry if Falvey and Levine begin to clean house in the minors.

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#44 Aaron Cross

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 05:57 AM

And he's none to happy about it. Personally, the more guys they purge from the previous regime, the better. Falvine has a right to bring in their own guys.

I really wouldn't be surprised to see Molitor fired either. Overall, he's done OK, but he's made enough questionable in-game decisions for me to be indifferent on him. Last night for instance. Colon was clearly gassed in the 6th, then he walks the lead off guy in the 7th. The writing was all over the wall he had nothing left, yet Molitor left him in a batter too long. Cost them the game.
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#45 Aaron Cross

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 06:01 AM

I know this may sound harsh but... good.

The way people rave about Mientkiewicz, you'd think he's Joe Maddon. My understanding is that Dougie doesn't only avoid sabremetric-based analysis, he's often hostile toward the idea. His comments over the years have led me to believe he's simply not going to come around on the topic, which means he's no longer a fit for the organization.

Adapt or die. If you're not going to play ball with the new front office's vision for the future, you have no place in the organization. This team had a development problem and I'm not going to cry if Falvey and Levine begin to clean house in the minors.

Spot on, and I'm not even a saber guy myself, but he has to be atleast somewhat open to it. As far as Dougy being upset with how they handled his firing? Whaaaaa. Get over it. Same for the Dougy lovers who are in full melt down mode. Falvine deserves a couple years before we start throwing them under the bus.
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#46 Sconnie

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 06:32 AM

I do think the timing and not being willing to tell him why was bad. He does deserve that.

the timing will never be good. The hurricane sucks, but waiting until the cleanup was done in January or February would hurt him and the Twins org worse. It's never a good time to have to look for a new job.

Having the discussion about "why" at the moment of truth is a bad idea. Discussions get heated and regretful things happen. Always best to inform briefly and end the conversation. Besides, I'm sure Doug has been given directions and shared expectations over the season that, I'm sure if Doug had an introspective moment, he'd know why.
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#47 Boom Boom

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 06:54 AM

I would have canned Doug after he physically attacked another coach.

He's had the benefit of a stocked system and being a former Twin. He's overrated.
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#48 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 06:55 AM

 

the timing will never be good. The hurricane sucks, but waiting until the cleanup was done in January or February would hurt him and the Twins org worse. It's never a good time to have to look for a new job.

 

I agree... It's unfortunate timing in that it has become part of the story. It makes it feel worse to someone reading the story.

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#49 Doctor Wu

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:02 AM

This news truly shocked me at first. For several years now it seemed like Mientkiewicz was being groomed for the manager's role in Minnesota. But ... after reading the analysis from others on this board, I can't say that I'm upset about the parting. The organization needs their minor league managers on the same developmental page. If Dougie's vision clashed with Falvey and Levine's, and especially if he's adverse to sabermetric strategy, that would be too awkward a fit going forward. One wonders if this is only the first of several changes in the coaching and managing ranks in the organization in the months ahead..

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#50 Sconnie

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:17 AM

I agree... It's unfortunate timing in that it has become part of the story. It makes it feel worse to someone reading the story.

agreed 100%
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#51 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:19 AM

He didn't exactly handle losing his job to Morneau all that well either. Says a lot about him actually.

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#52 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:54 AM

 

He didn't exactly handle losing his job to Morneau all that well either. Says a lot about him actually.

Nor did he handle the Boston game seven ball with grace.

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#53 USAFChief

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:59 AM

I have no problem with the org not retaining Doug. Probably the right call.

I have a problem with Falvey or at least Levine not making that call. It's not a minor league "coach." It's a minor league manager.

Not very classy. Quite the opposite, in fact.
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#54 spinowner

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:03 AM

 

...after reading the analysis from others on this board, I can't say that I'm upset about the parting. The organization needs their minor league managers on the same developmental page.

This is the crux of the matter.

Reading this thread has been very good at reminding me to think about the big picture. I was initially surprised because Mient has gotten mostly good press locally, but now that I've looked at it from the perspective of what's best for the organization I agree that he's probably not a good fit for what Falvine aspire to build.
I've said on this board before that the goal of the organization should be to be in position to contend for a world championship every year. For the Twins this means having exceptionally strong player development so that in-house prospects will achieve their full potential. It also means having exceptionally strong scouting so that players drafted, traded for, and signed in free agency will contribute to their full potential.
This is 2017. Old school is not going to cut it any more. Loyalty is certainly an admirable quality, but if an employee at any level is not suited for what is in the best interest of the organization it's time to part ways.

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#55 terrydactyls1947

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:09 AM

I have no problem with the org not retaining Doug. Probably the right call.
I have a problem with Falvey or at least Levine not making that call. It's not a minor league "coach." It's a minor league manager.
Not very classy. Quite the opposite, in fact.


I'm now retired. But during my illustrious working career, I was fired, laid off, caught in a reorganization, etc. more times than Dennis Rodman has tattoes. And each time, I received the news from my immediate supervisor. I never had the CEO come down from his penthouse office to deliver the bad news. That ain't their job. Why some people think it should be any different in baseball is beyond me. It's just another business.
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#56 strumdatjaguar

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:15 AM

Maybe the FO could have handled it by having a Falvine make the call, but then Dougie would have complained that a Pohlad should have made the call.Doug's reaction was certainly not classy, and reveals why the move was probably made.You're 42 years old and every year since you finished school you've been able to make a living playing or managing in organized baseball, almost all of it with theTwins organization.Where's the gratitude?At least have the class to fake some gratitude. 

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#57 nicksaviking

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:38 AM

I do think the timing and not being willing to tell him why was bad. He does deserve that.



According to the disgruntled former employee.
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#58 birdwatcher

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:42 AM

 

Wanted to pass along a few things I shared on Twitter. This is just me connecting some dots, I have no idea if there's anything to this ... but,

 

I remembered this story from last year in which Stephen Gonsalves kinda sold out Dougie for breaking an org rule/philosophy at the time. 

 

"I was going out with 91 pitches, and I think normally there's a Twins rule that you're not allowed to start an inning after 85 pitches," Gonsalves said. "Doug was confident in me and I appreciate that. I was waiting, watching him out of the corner of my eye in the dugout. He walked by and was sitting by the water jug, taking little glances at me."

 

That got me thinking about who he was most responsible for protecting this year. Lachlan Wells, who's still only 20, threw over 100 pitches in three-straight outings in late June. He missed all of July and most of August with a flexor mass strain. There was also a stretch in late August where Doug had Lewis Thorpe, who of course missed the prior two seasons, throw 97, 100 and 101 pitches in consecutive starts.

 

There's no questioning Doug was a winner and his players loved him, but I wouldn't be surprised if his dismissal has something to do with failure to adhere to team guidelines regarding starting pitchers. Again, just a complete guess. Really tough to come up with any other potential reasons/conspiracy theories :)

 

 

Despite being conjecture, this take makes sense to me. I'll add to the conjecture. His earlier suspension involved a phone conversation with Falvey, right? Given Dougie's past issues with a certain unfiltered brazenness of opinion, might he have hurt himself during this exchange? His ego has always been intact, and maybe one of the knocks against him is that it often surfaces at unopportunistic times. And was't Dougie less than gracious upon his departure from the Twins as a player? And is there a chance he wasn't retained by a number of teams after that in part because they weren't enamored with him personality-wise? I guess I'd feel better about how it was handled had one of the Falvines phoned him, but he reported to Brad Steil. Falvey didn't report to him. It feels to me that his eventual departure has been in the cards for awhile, maybe even before the new regime took over. Hope he lands on feet.

Edited by birdwatcher, 16 September 2017 - 08:44 AM.

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#59 Shaitan

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:43 AM

 

He didn't exactly handle losing his job to Morneau all that well either. Says a lot about him actually.

I still chuckle at his then-suggestion that he should DH while Morneau played 1B.


#60 Jerr

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:47 AM

 

MLB GMs do not make phone calls to minor league coaches who aren't having their contracts renewed. That's just not how things work. Just because someone is famous from his past career as a player doesn't mean he should get special treatment.

BUT, as a day one Twin's fan and totally into the "Twin's Way", the way this was handled???? Tells me the new front office has no concern for that history...Dougie baseball was a big thing here to US fans!!!

At least, handle the change directly management!!!! Shame on you for disrespecting our history here!!!!

 

 

p.s. after reading the whole thread, I have calmed down, but i still think due to his history, he deserved more than a minor league boss telling him, BUT, maybe it didn't happen quite that way....hope Dougie will come back to TwinsFest and stay connected some way........

Edited by Jerr, 16 September 2017 - 08:58 AM.

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