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Looks like Gabriel Moya is coming up

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#81 Kwak

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:14 PM

 

LOOGYs are extremely prevalent as MLB pitching staffs have grown to be 12-13 as the norm. Like it or not, it's no longer a gimmick, it's a well used strategy to glean talent from the margins.  

 

I do agree that the bullpen needs to be improved, however the margin isn't the concern. The concern with the bullpen is lack of depth at the 7th,8th,closer roles. One of the best/cheapest ways to develop that talent is to promote youth to the bullpen ALA Trevor Hildenberger.  

There are many "flaws" to this stratagem:

 

The very definition of LOOGY is a guy who is there for only one out.  Ergo, he's not good enough to pitch to more than one batter (or for that matter, a RHB);

 

12 or worse 13 pitchers on the active roster unnecessarily restricts the bench.  Results in the lack of substitutes. How about having a RHB available when the opponent inserts their LOOGY?  It sure would be nice to a dependable hitter to turn the tables.  

 

Infielders in the OF.  Or any other sub-optimum use of players.  Necessitates having the Danny Santana's of the BB world so every possible position can be manned if required.

 

Regulars get less rest,  The alternative:  see above.

 

Pitchers don't have to learn to fix their own problems--they look to the dugout to be "bailed-out".  Maybe even "blame" their replacement for yielding the "big hit".  

 

Standards were lowered for the pitchers.

 

All of this so the manager can demonstrate his "managin' "skill.  

 

Last, but not least, the use of "lesser players"  to try to squeeze a marginal team into the playoffs and perpetuate the baloney of "Ya' never know".


#82 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:24 PM

 

Standards were lowered for the pitchers.

I'm just going to focus on this because it's so ridiculous. Standards weren't lowered; hitters got better, statistical analysis evolved, and the game changed as a result.

 

If there were enough talented pitchers out there to eliminate the existence of the LOOGY, teams would have rejected the notion of a left-handed one out guy years ago. If you have the ability to field a pitcher who can reliably get three outs, of course you're going to prefer that guy over the one out specialist.

 

Your idea is great in the abstract. Add in the reality of teams constantly clamoring for pitching that can retire MLB hitters and it falls to pieces.

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#83 USAFChief

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:40 PM

 

I'm just going to focus on this because it's so ridiculous. Standards weren't lowered; hitters got better, statistical analysis evolved, and the game changed as a result.

 

If there were enough talented pitchers out there to eliminate the existence of the LOOGY, teams would have rejected the notion of a left-handed one out guy years ago. If you have the ability to field a pitcher who can reliably get three outs, of course you're going to prefer that guy over the one out specialist.

 

Your idea is great in the abstract. Add in the reality of teams constantly clamoring for pitching that can retire MLB hitters and it falls to pieces.

It really hasn't changed at all over time.

 

The platoon advantage/disadvantage has existed since somewhere around the 1st inning of the 1st baseball game ever played.  RH hitters do better against LH pitchers, and LH hitters do better against RH hitters.  Almost without exception.  Opposite for pitchers.  

 

It's that simple.  Finding enough RH relievers who can reliably get tough LH hitters out in key situations is tougher than finding a LH reliever who can do the job better.

 

 

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#84 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:55 PM

It really hasn't changed at all over time.

The platoon advantage/disadvantage has existed since somewhere around the 1st inning of the 1st baseball game ever played. RH hitters do better against LH pitchers, and LH hitters do better against RH hitters. Almost without exception. Opposite for pitchers.

It's that simple. Finding enough RH relievers who can reliably get tough LH hitters out in key situations is tougher than finding a LH reliever who can do the job better.

Well, yes. But hitters *are* better, which forces more pitching changes. Look at the lineups of 7-9 hitters even through the first half of the 80s. It's a different game.

Never mind that pitchers now throw *much* harder, which limits how many innings they can throw in a season. I'm sure Chapman could throw 95 innings a season if you told him to lob it over at 91mph.

#85 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:04 PM

Only being a little snarky here but it illustrates my earlier point. It's currently 13-0 in the sixth inning.

 

We can all agree this is a low leverage situation, right?

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#86 Sconnie

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:24 PM

There are many "flaws" to this stratagem:

The very definition of LOOGY is a guy who is there for only one out. Ergo, he's not good enough to pitch to more than one batter (or for that matter, a RHB);

12 or worse 13 pitchers on the active roster unnecessarily restricts the bench. Results in the lack of substitutes. How about having a RHB available when the opponent inserts their LOOGY? It sure would be nice to a dependable hitter to turn the tables.

Infielders in the OF. Or any other sub-optimum use of players. Necessitates having the Danny Santana's of the BB world so every possible position can be manned if required.

Regulars get less rest, The alternative: see above.

Pitchers don't have to learn to fix their own problems--they look to the dugout to be "bailed-out". Maybe even "blame" their replacement for yielding the "big hit".

Standards were lowered for the pitchers.

All of this so the manager can demonstrate his "managin' "skill.

Last, but not least, the use of "lesser players" to try to squeeze a marginal team into the playoffs and perpetuate the baloney of "Ya' never know".

agreed on your point that the strategy is sub-optimum.

I never said it was "good", I said it was "widely accepted". It is in no way, shape, or form novel, trickery, or unconventional.

#87 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:27 PM

 

agreed on your point that the strategy is sub-optimum.

I never said it was "good", I said it was "widely accepted". It is in no way, shape, or form novel, trickery, or unconventional.

I'd even argue it's "good" given the situation in MLB. Optimal? No. But the best strategy teams can field right now? Probably, maybe even certainly.

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#88 drjim

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:11 PM

Sure. That would mean he's mostly mop-up, in which case I already stipulated that it doesn't much matter.

But the suspect performance of our other pen options wasn't exactly a surprise. I mean, if I think I need another lefty to pair with Rogers, I don't think I wait for Boshers and Turley and Perkins to disappoint for another 10 games before I consider Moya, not when there were only 30 games to go anyway. Not that you cut the other guys, but we could have Moya's "feet wet" appearances out of the way now, and we could have tried him in a Boshers type spot tonight if we wanted.


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#89 Sconnie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:27 AM

I'd even argue it's "good" given the situation in MLB. Optimal? No. But the best strategy teams can field right now? Probably, maybe even certainly.

specialists can be very, very effective. Reading the tea leaves of roster construction, it appears that most GMs would agree that a specialist relief pitcher saves more high leverage runs (wins mores games) than a bench bat scores high leverage runs (wins more games). Kind of a loosey goosey WPA exercise to analyze roster construction.

The challenge here is tactics. Best laid plans by the GM get wasted if your manager continually puts down the bunt sign with your bench bat at the plate, or leaves your LOOGY in for a whole inning.

#90 howieramone2

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:15 AM

 

I should have been clearer. By "debate," I simply mean a discussion over a topic. People have their opinions and try to reasonably explain those opinions. What rubs me weird about this one is that Moya, whose name has been basically absent around here for weeks, is suddenly this point of contention. I (perhaps unfairly) read your post as part of what I see as a larger tapestry of complaints about the front office that I don't think are always fair or fully formed.

No you read it correctly. The handling of Moya was a no-brainer. Let him pitch in the play-offs and then bring him up to get his feet wet. The search committee didn't hire anyone off this board.

Read my lips. Santana has shown absolutely no signs of decline.


#91 Doomtints

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:23 AM

"LOOGY" is an exaggeration anyway, a term coming from the fact that we often witness pitchers coming into a close game for 1 batter only.  There has never been a true "LOOGY" pitcher who only pitches to one batter in every appearance.

 

We witness managers making tactical decisions and sort of made the wrong conclusion about what we were looking at.


#92 drjim

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:00 AM

 

"LOOGY" is an exaggeration anyway, a term coming from the fact that we often witness pitchers coming into a close game for 1 batter only.  There has never been a true "LOOGY" pitcher who only pitches to one batter in every appearance.

 

We witness managers making tactical decisions and sort of made the wrong conclusion about what we were looking at.

 

A pitcher should be able to be considered a true LOOGY and still gobble up the occasional low leverage inning to save other arms. Part of being on a staff. Doesn't really change the way he is used.

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#93 dbminn

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:44 AM

Congratulations to Gabriel Moya on his first inning in the big leagues and to chalking up his first K. 

 

Wait... I am on the Moya forum, right?

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#94 mickeymental

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:57 AM

 

Last, but not least, the use of "lesser players"  to try to squeeze a marginal team into the playoffs and perpetuate the baloney of "Ya' never know".

hmm. kinda reminds me of a team that lost nine of 10 in august and then five straight to close the season. in 1987. baloney indeed.


#95 Kwak

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:26 PM

 

hmm. kinda reminds me of a team that lost nine of 10 in august and then five straight to close the season. in 1987. baloney indeed.

Somebody wins the Powerball (eventually)--but it doesn't change that lottery tickets are an unsound strategy to success.

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#96 jokin

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 09:39 PM

 

If Tonkin used up his chances he would not be on the roster.

 

Literally, yes, he's still on the roster, but in the figurative terms around which I was writing, he's only up here out of sheer desperation for intact arms good enough for Chris Gimenez duty. Highly unlikely we'll ever see him in a Twins uniform after this year.

Edited by jokin, 17 September 2017 - 09:41 PM.

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."