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#41 The Wise One

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:07 AM

 

Some teams are dumb, Delmon Young fetched a pretty good young pitcher IIrC ;)

Oliveros  with his 18 games as a Twins reliever  is a pretty good pitcher. Not even a starter as you originally thought they should get for Rosario. The bar for a return is so low that the world's smallest midget couldn't even do a limbo under it


#42 IndianaTwin

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:16 AM

 

so, do what to fix the pitching, then? Just keep trotting out Gee, Turley, Tepesch, Santiago, et. al.? The mistake in those trades was that they traded both of them, and didn't have a lot of other good OFers either. Right now, the Twins have probably got three legit OF, plus Wade and Granite as backups....and they have ESan and Berrios for SPs signed next year.....plus Mejia. That's it. You need 7-10 SPs....

 

Often at least 10. Or this year 16. 

 

But 5-7 or so usually carry most of the freight, and most of the rest get 1-3 starts. And we have ESan, Berrios, and Mejia to count toward that 5-7.

 

And some combination of May, Gibson, Enns, Hughes, Jorge, Santiago, Slegers, Romero, Rosario, Gonsalves, Turley, Hurlbut, Stewart, Littell, and maybe others to work at the rest. 

 

The reason you need 10+ is that you're going to end up with some injuries and some clunkers, so at least three of those will probably get no more than 1-3 starts. But when the list of candidates to fill out the top 5-7 already has 14 names on it, it seems very feasible to come up with the 2-4 that will combine with ESan, Berrios and Mejia to get close to 90 percent of the start.

 

Which 2-4 from that list will it be? I don't know -- that's why I'm in my office writing TD posts over lunch rather than in the Twins front office. We may or may not agree with the plan, but it seems clear that Falvine has one.

 

I don't think Rosario gets you another ESan/Berrios/Mejia, though he might get another name to add to the 14. But 14 vs. 15, what's the difference, if it means giving up a 25-year-old starting OF who is improving and going to get better? 

 

My personal preference is what seems to align with some of the other comments: 

  • Generally leave the position players alone, with tinkering (Garver for Giminez seems most obvious). If Gordon or others force themselves into the mix, cool! That's a great problem to have.
  • ESan/Berrios/Mejia in the rotation.
  • Add the best starter we can get via free agency. Consider two if the prices are right. 
  • Draw from the list of 14 to fill out the rotation.
  • Then work at the pen, and I don't think it's as far off as some of us think, when we again realize the development some guys have shown (Hildenberger, Rogers, Busenitz, etc.). Kintzler is the easy name to point to since he's a known quantity, but a free agent signing of that ilk (or maybe two) may well do it. 

Edited by IndianaTwin, 06 September 2017 - 11:18 AM.

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#43 yarnivek1972

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:18 AM

It's not my job to know the answer to that.....and I posted comments about that above. But no one has said how they'll add pitching next year, when asked, if not Rosario, how...


I'm not sure they can. Adding impactful pitchers isn't easy to do. It either takes loads of cash or loads of high quality players/prospects a team is willing to trade. If the general consensus is that the Twins need to add 2 quality starters and 2 quality relievers, I don't see the combination of cash and trade pieces to make it happen. Not yet anyway.

#44 laloesch

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:29 AM

I look at it in a different way.  He's young (25), still learning plate discipline and is jumpy at the plate.  I think Molitor said it best.  

 

“Rosey is still learning what kind of hitter he is at this level,” Twins manager Paul Molitor said. “He’s got some power. He’s got gap power. He can go the other way. He’s an aggressive guy and he forces it at times. When he gets good pitches to hit, he can do damage."

 

I love having a couple of aggressive hitters (Sano and Rosario) in the lineup.  At times he does drive us crazy but you have to have them in my opinion.  When he hit three homeruns in Seattle back in June it impressed the hell out of me.  In fact his stats across the board impress the hell out of me this season, especially for a 25 year old.  

 

If it was up to me i wouldn't trade him, unless I got a good deal in exchange.  That's how i feel about it.  Too me this is growing pains.

 

Edited by laloesch, 06 September 2017 - 11:31 AM.

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#45 laloesch

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:40 AM

 

How? They are going to outbid the other teams for one of hte three good FAs? They will suddenly start trading prospects? How will the pitching get fixed?

 

As for Rosario......I've fluctuated back and forth on him over the years. He always seemed like a natural hitter to me, but until this year he's shown no patience. He's a legit MLB player, the question is, is he more valuable to the Twins as a player here, or in acquiring other player(s). Without knowing the offers, I can't answer that. But, if they could get 2 minor league pitchers less than 2 years away that they believe in, I'd be tempted....

 

Well.......you start by making good deals to bring in talent.  For example Garcia for Enns and Littell (who's 19-1 in A/AA fyi).  You continue developing young talent (Slegers, Gonsalves, Romero & Jorge) and also with a bit of luck instead of the injury bug (see Lewis Thorpe) you keep developing that talent and start calling those guys up and go from there. Its not always necessary to trade away all the good players you don't like for pitching.  

Edited by laloesch, 06 September 2017 - 11:43 AM.

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#46 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:26 PM

 

Query: who has more trade value, Rosario or Kepler? Who is the better player? Who has more upside? Who is more likely to reach their ceiling? Who would you rather have going forward? Who would other teams rather have?

The easy answer is Kepler has more value but I'm not sure that's accurate. Unlike Rosario, he still hasn't figured out LHP and while he has both more control time and is younger, I think the race is pretty close at this point given Rosario's season.

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#47 Steve Lein

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:35 PM

 

Again he's prime trade bait. Use him to get an SP or two. Have Kepler and Buxton hold down the Of and sign a FA corner OF type.

 

I had this type of opinion on Oswaldo Arcia when he was OPS-ing around 1.000 in AAA and when he was clubbing HR's early in his career for the Twins.

 

People called me crazy.

 

My reason was Eddie Rosario would prove to be the better player as a corner OF in the future when the Twins were good.

 

Rosario's not trade bait. He's working into the core.

Edited by Steve Lein, 06 September 2017 - 12:47 PM.

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Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 45, Speed: 45. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but will sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#48 DaveW

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:32 PM

Oliveros with his 18 games as a Twins reliever is a pretty good pitcher. Not even a starter as you originally thought they should get for Rosario. The bar for a return is so low that the world's smallest midget couldn't even do a limbo under it


I was talking about Garza

Aaron Hicks 2017 stats so far (5/17/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS  7 HR 19 RBI 6 SB 22 BBs 1.8WAR
 


#49 DaveW

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:34 PM

Also it's not just his approach, he seems to have made the most boneheaded plays this year, bad throws, missing cut off guys, bad baserunning and just too many bad swings. Yeah I get that he has gotten better, but still, I think it's a maturity issue.

I'm glad that Mollie sat him today.

Aaron Hicks 2017 stats so far (5/17/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS  7 HR 19 RBI 6 SB 22 BBs 1.8WAR
 


#50 laloesch

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:07 PM

 

Also it's not just his approach, he seems to have made the most boneheaded plays this year, bad throws, missing cut off guys, bad baserunning and just too many bad swings. Yeah I get that he has gotten better, but still, I think it's a maturity issue.

I'm glad that Mollie sat him today.

 

Fine, trade him or throw him away.  Apparently he's worthless, reckless and an immature player and human being.  If we thought like this about all the current Twins players being brought up through the system this rebuild would be over already and they'd be permanently stuck with AAAA veterans from other teams.  

Edited by laloesch, 06 September 2017 - 02:08 PM.

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#51 ChrisKnutson

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:18 PM

I understand the frustration with Rosie but you cant deny that even at this moment he is a unique talent (especially with the bat) and could be better. But regardless I feel in the future the twins should consider removing him from left and put him at DH and or use him as utility player instead of trading him (he used to play 2nd and could also sub for Kepler against lefties). This also would give the twins the opportunity to go out and sign a big right handed batting leftfielder, all while still having Rosario's bat in the lineup everyday. 

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#52 The Wise One

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:23 PM

 

I was talking about Garza

Pridie was the second coming of Roger Maris and Brendan Harris was the next Brooks Robinson or something like that. Delmon alone was not enough for Garza. 


#53 Pardon My Dinger

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:27 PM

I shall remain steadfast in my support of Eddie Rosario. I will continue to cherish that swing.
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#54 goulik

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:37 PM

The hottest of hot takes!
 
I say we don't just DFA him. I say we nuke him!


Better yet, we solve two problems in one by sending him to North Korea AS the nuke...

Too far? Sorry...
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#55 Monkeypaws

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:49 PM

Rosario >> Hicks
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#56 notoriousgod71

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:01 PM

It makes sense to trade Rosario if we can land an Ervin Santana type pitcher in return and it makes no sense if we land Scott Diamond.

 

Even if we go half way in between and get A.J. Griffin I wouldn't do it.

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#57 Mike Sixel

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:11 PM

 

It makes sense to trade Rosario if we can land an Ervin Santana type pitcher in return and it makes no sense if we land Scott Diamond.

 

Even if we go half way in between and get A.J. Griffin I wouldn't do it.

 

That is the trick for sure, finding the right pitcher(s). 

 

I would bet good money he's on the roster next year, lots of good money. 

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#58 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:37 PM

 

How? They are going to outbid the other teams for one of hte three good FAs? They will suddenly start trading prospects? How will the pitching get fixed?

 

As for Rosario......I've fluctuated back and forth on him over the years. He always seemed like a natural hitter to me, but until this year he's shown no patience. He's a legit MLB player, the question is, is he more valuable to the Twins as a player here, or in acquiring other player(s). Without knowing the offers, I can't answer that. But, if they could get 2 minor league pitchers less than 2 years away that they believe in, I'd be tempted....

 

I think this is a good take. I like Rosario, and I'm fine with him as a starter, but I wouldn't hesitate to move him for pitching (much like Dozier). Now that said, I think the Twins should be looking for established pitching, or at the very least ML ready pitching, not pitching a couple years away.

 

We have that in spades right now. I know some are higher than others, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that one or two of Gonsalves, Stewart, Romero, Jorge, Slegers, Enns, Littell, or Rodriguez will be able to stick at some point, several of which could be better than average. The window is now. If you trade Rosario, I think it is something that should help in the short term as well.


#59 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:46 PM

 

....and there is not. And nobody remotely close.

 

I'm not sure I agree there. Grossman would likely be an acceptable fall back as an every day OF. Yes, there's a drop off there. I don't debate that, but I could live with that if the Twins got a good pitching option back. I'd add, that finding a pure DH isn't that hard to do, whether that be their best AAA hitter, giving a decent hitting defender a call, or going out and paying for a bat first option.

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#60 birdwatcher

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 05:07 PM

 

so, do what to fix the pitching, then? Just keep trotting out Gee, Turley, Tepesch, Santiago, et. al.? The mistake in those trades was that they traded both of them, and didn't have a lot of other good OFers either. Right now, the Twins have probably got three legit OF, plus Wade and Granite as backups....and they have ESan and Berrios for SPs signed next year.....plus Mejia. That's it. You need 7-10 SPs....

 

 

Fixing the pitching isn't dependent upon trading Rosario. Surplus exists when your replacement is as good as or better than the asset being replaced. I don't see that player right now, do you?

 

I'm sure I think the pitching is less broken than you, Mike, but yes, it requires fixing. I'd acquire one via FA and a second via trade. I'd probably trade from close-to-MLB ready prospects, like Gordon and Wade, because my sense is that middle infield and OF are where our surplus is right now. With Santana, Berrios, Mejia and Gibson, plus two new additions that I felt exceeded Mejia as a standard, I'd probably be fine if my next six choices were Gonsalves, Romero, Jorge, and then guys like Gee, Slegers, and any number of the other unknowns in the system.

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