Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Thank you Terry Ryan

  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#21 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 18,215 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 05 September 2017 - 11:34 AM

Polanco (who inexplicably had his options burned early to sit on the bench),

Polanco's situation was caused by the rules of baseball. He was signed young, and was added to the 40-man roster when he became Rule-5 eligible. Perhaps no team would have taken him, but if some bottom-feeder team had, and then used 3 additional years of options to stash him until about now, we'd be raking the FO over the coals for losing this can't-miss prospect. Jesse Lund at Twinkie Town called for him to be added to the 40-man at the time.

 

I dislike MLB's punitive approach to signing 16-year olds from outside the US, and therefore I refuse to fault the Twins for Polanco's minor-league options.

  • howieramone2 likes this

You can't take it with you. So don't go.


#22 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Haighters gonna Haight

  • Twins Mods
  • 18,215 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 05 September 2017 - 11:51 AM

This is not an accurate way of thinking of Polanco's options. The blunder with him was calling him up too early to full season ball which prevented the chance for a fourth option year.

That's a fair point. Every time I think I have mastered one area among all the constraints that a GM faces, I learn that I've overlooked something more. I would need a strong Assistant GM to handle and/or remind me of the petty details while I masterminded the Big Picture. ;)

You can't take it with you. So don't go.


#23 James

James

    Sideburns Specialist

  • Members
  • 2,415 posts
  • LocationThe dive bars of NE Minneapolis

Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:11 PM

 

Selecting Buxton was an absolute no-brainer.

Selecting Buxton was not a no-brainer.  Right before the 2012 draft, it looked like the Astros were going to select Mark Appel.  Buxton was pretty much set, but there was plenty of evidence to suggest that the Twins were looking closely at Carlos Correa.  There were plenty of reports stating that the Twins were also looking at Gausman and Zimmer.  Given how much they needed pitching, I don't think many of us would have faulted them for going after any of those 3 pitchers at the time.

 

Correa was clearly a great pick now, but he didn't really get traction as the #1 overall pick until right before the draft, and Appel was considered to be close to a "can't miss" top end pitcher.  There were a lot of moving parts to that draft.  I'd probably have to think that there are no "no-brainer" picks in any mlb draft.

Edited by James, 05 September 2017 - 02:13 PM.

  • birdwatcher, puckstopper1 and howieramone2 like this

You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.


#24 Doomtints

Doomtints

    Joe's Shades™

  • Members
  • 2,460 posts

Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:32 PM

 

 

Pitchers 26.Signed by:

Ryan 10, Falvey 4, Antony 1, Smith 1

 

Position players 14. Signed by:

Smith 7, Ryan 5, Falvey 2

 

 

Interesting stuff. 

 

There are 10 missing on the pitching side, are they all Ryan?

Edited by Doomtints, 05 September 2017 - 02:32 PM.


#25 notoriousgod71

notoriousgod71

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,252 posts

Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:40 PM

 

Interesting stuff. 

 

There are 10 missing on the pitching side, are they all Ryan?

 

What about the other 37 pitchers picked up and discarded over the course of this very season?


#26 alarp33

alarp33

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,870 posts

Posted 05 September 2017 - 03:27 PM

 

Selecting Buxton was not a no-brainer.  Right before the 2012 draft, it looked like the Astros were going to select Mark Appel.  Buxton was pretty much set, but there was plenty of evidence to suggest that the Twins were looking closely at Carlos Correa.  There were plenty of reports stating that the Twins were also looking at Gausman and Zimmer.  Given how much they needed pitching, I don't think many of us would have faulted them for going after any of those 3 pitchers at the time.

 

Correa was clearly a great pick now, but he didn't really get traction as the #1 overall pick until right before the draft, and Appel was considered to be close to a "can't miss" top end pitcher.  There were a lot of moving parts to that draft.  I'd probably have to think that there are no "no-brainer" picks in any mlb draft.

 

Buxton was the top ranked prospect in the MLB draft in 2012.  "No brainer" may not have been the right term to use, but I'm not sure if he should be given a ton of credit for selecting the consensus best player in the draft with the 2nd pick.  

Edited by alarp33, 05 September 2017 - 03:27 PM.

"The game has changed since I've entered, it's for bright, energetic negotiators moreso than anything I possess." - Terry Ryan 2007


#27 Deduno Abides

Deduno Abides

    Rochester Plates

  • Members
  • 1,781 posts

Posted 05 September 2017 - 03:52 PM

Once and for all, can we please start giving credit to the right people? Smith didn't know anything about these guys until the scouts came to him with a figure. Smith wasn't even the most influential voice in the room when the group decision was made to open the wallet for Sano's people. Smith has said as much.
 
Let's learn a little more about what guys like Fred Guerrero and Howard Norsetter do all year every year before we  perpetuate this myth about Smith. At least Ryan knew the names of all the people in scouting and development, had many one-on-one meetings with every one of them, and had the respect as a baseball man of the whole lot of them, most of whom he hired.


How about a different perspective?

A good leader hires (or retains) and empowers people smarter than he is, clears paths for them to accomplish their objectives, and shares or gives credit. It seems unfair to downgrade Smith for upholding these qualities.
  • Mike Sixel, puckstopper1 and jimmer like this

#28 jimmer

jimmer

    A former AF SNCO who values integrity.

  • Members
  • 9,773 posts

Posted 05 September 2017 - 04:21 PM

 

 

 

Ryan deserves more credit, and less criticism, IMO, than this board gives him in general, despite his weaknesses and despite his inevitable and not so inevitable mistakes.  The organization that was in place when he left, from a personnel standpoint, is intact. Let's give those people credit, and give Falvey credit for the actual changes he's making. There's plenty of room for us to credit both GM's, and a whole unexplored territory for giving credit downstream where much of it is deserved.

You highly mention Ryan (no shocker) and Falvey and don't mention Smith at all.

Edited by jimmer, 05 September 2017 - 04:23 PM.

  • Thrylos and Mike Sixel like this

#29 prouster

prouster

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 382 posts

Posted 06 September 2017 - 06:25 PM

I still think Ryan did a poor job. They were one of the worst franchises in professional sports in terms of success over his 25 year tenure. He chose Mauer for the wrong reasons and it just happened to work out for him. He stumbled into Johan, then they bundled the trade to the Mets. He redused to adapt and use technology and advanced stats, which shows extremely poor vision and leadership. In terms of analysis, this franchise was in the '80s while nearly every one else was in 2000s. The place turned into a country club, where he and his buddies just hung around and compiled 90 loss season after 90 loss season with no repercussions to staff.


I agree that TR's reluctance to embrace analytics was a problem. However, I don't think it's fair to refuse credit for drafting Mauer and acquiring Johan. Those were just good moves, plain and simple.
  • USAFChief likes this

#30 Thrylos

Thrylos

    Twins World Champions in 2018

  • Members
  • 9,332 posts
  • LocationLehigh Valley, PA, USA
  • Twitter: thrylos98

Posted 06 September 2017 - 07:00 PM

 

Interesting stuff. 

 

There are 10 missing on the pitching side, are they all Ryan?

 

That's the current active roster.I did not include everyone who played with the Twins.Most of the missing ones are Falvey I suspect (Breslow, Tepesche, Wilk, Haley, Garcia, Ruckinski, Melville, Heston) Ryan has Hughes, Smith has Wheeler. 

 

From the top of my head.

-----
Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
http://tenthinningst...h.blogspot.com/
twitter: @thrylos98

#31 Pardon My Dinger

Pardon My Dinger

    Cat Evangelist

  • Members
  • 2,818 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA

Posted 06 September 2017 - 07:03 PM

And I would like to thank George W Bush, because...I mean, he genuinely seems like a nice guy...and it seems like that's, like, what we're doing here.
  • Carole Keller, LA VIkes Fan, Vanimal46 and 1 other like this

Rap name: LL Cool Bean.


#32 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 8,879 posts

Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:47 PM

 

This is kind of an interested statement, so here is the Twins active roster (signed by GM in parenthesis) :


 

Total: Ryan 15, Falvey 9, Smith 8, Antony 1.

 

 

 

Facts.

Well, I would hope that someone who was so interested in facts would know that Falvey isn't our GM. .

  • howieramone2 likes this

#33 jimmer

jimmer

    A former AF SNCO who values integrity.

  • Members
  • 9,773 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 04:06 AM

 

Well, I would hope that someone who was so interested in facts would know that Falvey isn't our GM. .

You mean like how some around here would continuously compare Ryan's GM work to the Cubs' Theo Epstein even though Epstein isn't the Cubs' GM either? 

 

Those people would say it was about comparing the top dogs making the final call, and with the way many teams are set up right now, there's a President of Baseball Operations who is top dog and then a GM.  

 

Probably why people are talking about Falvey instead of Levine.  The same way people wouldn't stop talking about Theo (or was that King Theo? I forget).

Edited by jimmer, 07 September 2017 - 04:58 AM.


#34 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,451 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:16 AM

 

Interesting stuff. 

 

There are 10 missing on the pitching side, are they all Ryan?

 

 

None of them are "all Ryan" and none of them are "all Smith".

 

If we're so dead set on attributing credit, name the area scout responsible for the recommendation. Then give some of the credit to the person who hired and managed that scout. Also, the contract negotiations with the kid's representatives might have been conducted by Antony or Krivsky. Maybe a couple of those guys are "all Krivsky".


#35 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,451 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:36 AM

 

How about a different perspective?

A good leader hires (or retains) and empowers people smarter than he is, clears paths for them to accomplish their objectives, and shares or gives credit. It seems unfair to downgrade Smith for upholding these qualities.

 

That's precisely my point. I'm not the one guilty of downgrading Smith. I wish others would stop completely ignoring his true accomplishments instead of falsely attributing to him the accomplishments of others.

 

Both Ryan and Smith would look at you like you were daft if you tried to ask them which guy should "get credit" for any one of the players on the roster. Why do we ignore the fact that both of them have consistently and accurately credited others in the organization for their roles in procuring talent? 

 

Give me a list of Smith's hires (or fires) among the five dozen people in scouting and development. It's a list of zero names, because he left that assignment in the hands of the baseball people, an act of good leadership on his part.

  • gunnarthor likes this

#36 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,451 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:50 AM

 

You highly mention Ryan (no shocker) and Falvey and don't mention Smith at all.

 

Again, jimmer, I've cited facts about Smith's true accomplishments maybe more times than anyone else who regularly participates in these threads. His most important imprint is in building the physical infrastructure for the organization's international effort. I can't recall you or anyone else (besides me) lauding Smith for the state of the art joint facilities in the Dominican Republic. Smith's accomplishments there are now a huge part of the reason we're attracting enough talent there to have posted the second best record among 40 teams this season. 

 

I didn't credit Smith in the post you're replying to because we were talking about scouting personnel hired by Ryan and changes made by Falvey. 

 

And I'm one of the few people on this thread NOT highly mentioning Ryan or Smith or Falvey when it comes to the roster, because I view it as an exercise in ignorance, frankly speaking.

Edited by birdwatcher, 07 September 2017 - 05:59 AM.

  • gunnarthor likes this

#37 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 8,879 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:44 AM

 

You mean like how some around here would continuously compare Ryan's GM work to the Cubs' Theo Epstein even though Epstein isn't the Cubs' GM either? 

 

Those people would say it was about comparing the top dogs making the final call, and with the way many teams are set up right now, there's a President of Baseball Operations who is top dog and then a GM.  

 

Probably why people are talking about Falvey instead of Levine.  The same way people wouldn't stop talking about Theo (or was that King Theo? I forget).

Beats me, I always mentioned Hoyer but YMMV, as others say.

 

But, as Bird notes, this stupid threads always devolve into this sort of ****. Ryan, Smith, Lavine, Anthony and Falvey have all done some good things that we don't recognize and made mistakes, as well. I liked Ryan quite a bit because he kept the window open longer than other GMs for a small market team and our current down swing was, more or less, part of the natural cycle of baseball economics. We'll see how the new team does.

  • howieramone2 likes this

#38 Doomtints

Doomtints

    Joe's Shades™

  • Members
  • 2,460 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:44 AM

 

None of them are "all Ryan" and none of them are "all Smith".

 

If we're so dead set on attributing credit, name the area scout responsible for the recommendation. Then give some of the credit to the person who hired and managed that scout. Also, the contract negotiations with the kid's representatives might have been conducted by Antony or Krivsky. Maybe a couple of those guys are "all Krivsky".

 

This would be called "overthinking it."  All contracts go through the person in charge, if that person is not paying attention and is rubber stamping, that's a problem. Is this what you are suggesting happened?


#39 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 8,879 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:56 AM

 

This would be called "overthinking it."  All contracts go through the person in charge, if that person is not paying attention and is rubber stamping, that's a problem. Is this what you are suggesting happened?

Honestly, isn't that why they hired a President of Baseball Ops and a GM? Because running the baseball side solely as GM was just too much? I mean, I don't think the GM should have to have a huge say in who they pick in the 4th round or who they give 250k signing bonus too. That should be delegated to others, no? Should the GM say "we need to find a reliever who will sign for 1-2m/yr who might be able to handle 40 innings of mop up duty" and have guys give him some suggestions/names to target? Or should the GM just find that guy by himself?


#40 Doomtints

Doomtints

    Joe's Shades™

  • Members
  • 2,460 posts

Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:42 AM

 

Honestly, isn't that why they hired a President of Baseball Ops and a GM? Because running the baseball side solely as GM was just too much? I mean, I don't think the GM should have to have a huge say in who they pick in the 4th round or who they give 250k signing bonus too. That should be delegated to others, no? Should the GM say "we need to find a reliever who will sign for 1-2m/yr who might be able to handle 40 innings of mop up duty" and have guys give him some suggestions/names to target? Or should the GM just find that guy by himself?

 

He should make use all available resources (which includes his employees) to make the best decision. His job depends on making the right choices more often than not.