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Go get Verlander

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#581 Doomtints

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:01 PM

 

It seems to me that there's a lot of straw-manning going on. I think the general argument against a Verlander-type trade is that the prospect cost outweighs the benefit, and that such a move, while it might have some immediate impact, would actually hurt long term sustainability. No one is arguing that the Twins shouldn't make moves, just that they need to make the right moves, which aren't always the splashy ones.

As far as Verlander is specifically concerned, I think there are plenty of reasons why he was never a viable option. Listing those reasons would be redundant.

 

Right. The Tigers got themselves into a position to where they had to let Verlander go in spite of his upside. The Twins would have been going down a similar path had they given up a lot to get him. The Twins don't have a lot that I would call "expendable" and they still would have half a pitching staff that needs upgrading.


#582 spinowner

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:51 PM

I haven't thoroughly read every post in this thread. But I'll say this: Everything comes back to scouting and player development. If we want to make a splashy trade we need to have quality prospects to trade or we need to have quality prospects to step into the void left by quality higher-level players who are traded. If we want make a splashy free-agent-signing we need to have quality players to make this team an attractive destination. We can't afford to buy players to cover mistakes. We have to do a better job than everyone else of making our acquisitions into good players.


#583 laloesch

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 10:25 AM

 

Our draft position due to poor results has yielded us Buxton, Stewart, Gordon, Jay, and Lewis. The last 4 still have bright futures. How do you figure they had more to spend on IFA than most teams? This is the first year of the hard cap, and it's not even close to being over. Few teams have had as good of results as we've had in IFA.

 

Stewart is looking like a bust.It's not a forgone conclusion yet, but I would be absolutely shocked if he even makes it to the majors and sticks in any given role due to his inability to get strikeouts at AA ball and the 5+ walks he's averaging a game there.I'm not sure about Jay either.  


#584 old nurse

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 10:38 AM

 

Stewart is looking like a bust.It's not a forgone conclusion yet, but I would be absolutely shocked if he even makes it to the majors and sticks in any given role due to his inability to get strikeouts at AA ball and the 5+ walks he's averaging a game there.I'm not sure about Jay either.  

The new direction that the minor league development under Falvey won't let Stewart reach his potential? Come on, where are the Twins colored glasses.?A new year with new plans and coaching he could get there. Optimism.  Goofy emoji here.

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#585 Vanimal46

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:45 AM

Fun fact: Justin Verlander's stats with Houston...

19 starts 13-2 record, 1.34 ERA, 11 K/9, 1.8 BB/9, 5.4 bWAR

Houston spent too much in prospects to get him was the narrative.
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#586 USAFChief

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:49 AM

Fun fact: Justin Verlander's stats with Houston...
19 starts 13-2 record, 1.34 ERA, 11 K/9, 1.8 BB/9, 5.4 bWAR
Houston spent too much in prospects to get him was the narrative.

He’s also clearly over the hill.

And no better than Matt Moore, or Jeremy Hellickson.
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#587 Carole Keller

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:31 AM

Fun fact: Justin Verlander's stats with Houston...
19 starts 13-2 record, 1.34 ERA, 11 K/9, 1.8 BB/9, 5.4 bWAR
Houston spent too much in prospects to get him was the narrative.

Seriously, stop with this kind of ‘I told you so posting,’ especially since that wasn’t the narrative. The narrative was he didn’t want to come here, not that it would cost us too much. If you are going to resort to :P posting, at least get it right.
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#588 spycake

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:49 AM

 

The narrative was he didn’t want to come here, not that it would cost us too much.

On a non-Twins level, there was absolutely a national narrative that he wouldn't be worth the price to Houston.

 

I do wonder, though, if the Twins could have changed their narrative by claiming him on waivers, and actually being willing to pony up a prospect package equivalent to Houston's. Would have put a little pressure on Verlander to consider us.


#589 Carole Keller

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:20 AM

On a non-Twins level, there was absolutely a national narrative that he wouldn't be worth the price to Houston.

I do wonder, though, if the Twins could have changed their narrative by claiming him on waivers, and actually being willing to pony up a prospect package equivalent to Houston's. Would have put a little pressure on Verlander to consider us.

Not trying to be rude here, because I know this. It’s a woulda, shoulda, coulda issue at this point and has been hashed over to death except by those who still have axes to grind. IMHO of course. 😉
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“May we teach our children that speaking out without the fear of retribution is our culture’s new north star.” ~Laura Dern
Nevertheless, she persisted. Time’s up.

#590 SwainZag

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:32 AM

Can we quit beating this horse to death?  

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#591 USAFChief

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:33 AM

Seriously, stop with this kind of ‘I told you so posting,’ especially since that wasn’t the narrative. The narrative was he didn’t want to come here, not that it would cost us too much. If you are going to resort to :P posting, at least get it right.

That was one potential roadblock.

That was not the primary objection.

And IMO, this thread is quite illustrative of the objections we see every day on TD whenever someone proposes a potential upgrade for the Twins. Too expensive. The other team won’t trade to the Twins. It’ll cost actual prospects. He’s really not that good. We can’t play in that end of the pool.

We see the same thing today about Realmuto.

Meantime, we’re under .500. Verlander was none of those things.
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#592 Kelly Vance

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:00 AM

 

Agree, but what are you willing to give up to get him? And would he waive his no-trade clause to come to the Twins?

In a word, NO.  Why leave a world series champion and contender this year to join a long shot team? 


#593 spycake

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:14 AM

 

And IMO, this thread is quite illustrative of the objections we see every day on TD whenever someone proposes a potential upgrade for the Twins. Too expensive. The other team won’t trade to the Twins. It’ll cost actual prospects. He’s really not that good. We can’t play in that end of the pool.

We see the same thing today about Realmuto.

Meantime, we’re under .500. Verlander was none of those things.

Well, the Tigers probably preferred not to deal Verlander within the division, although presumably that could be overcome with extra cash/prospects. (And of course if Detroit figured he'd be anywhere close to this valuable, they wouldn't have been willing to deal him at all!)

 

Plus the no-trade clause. MLBTR alluded to Verlander waiting for a deal to the Cubs, which is why the Astros deal was only accepted at the last minute. The only way to force him to consider us was claiming him on waivers -- but looking back, Verlander cleared waivers very early, on August 4th. Which is when we were still fading in the wild card race, after just having dealt Kintzler and Garcia at the deadline. With only 48 hours after a claim to make a deal, it seems very doubtful we would have accomplished anything with that claim, except annoying a lot of people (keep in mind the gentlemen's agreement not to claim players in August unless there is actually a chance to finalize a trade). Even if we were willing to trade any and all players/prospects to Detroit, it's highly doubtful that Verlander would have waived his no-trade to go to the Twins as they stood on August 4.

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#594 Mike Sixel

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:06 PM

Well, the Tigers probably preferred not to deal Verlander within the division, although presumably that could be overcome with extra cash/prospects. (And of course if Detroit figured he'd be anywhere close to this valuable, they wouldn't have been willing to deal him at all!)
 
Plus the no-trade clause. MLBTR alluded to Verlander waiting for a deal to the Cubs, which is why the Astros deal was only accepted at the last minute. The only way to force him to consider us was claiming him on waivers -- but looking back, Verlander cleared waivers very early, on August 4th. Which is when we were still fading in the wild card race, after just having dealt Kintzler and Garcia at the deadline. With only 48 hours after a claim to make a deal, it seems very doubtful we would have accomplished anything with that claim, except annoying a lot of people (keep in mind the gentlemen's agreement not to claim players in August unless there is actually a chance to finalize a trade). Even if we were willing to trade any and all players/prospects to Detroit, it's highly doubtful that Verlander would have waived his no-trade to go to the Twins as they stood on August 4.


Always a reason the Twins don't deal prospects for serious,costly, veterans. That's the point of the resurrection of the thread..... It is never time, it is never one piece away, it is always too costly, the other player never wants to come here......
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One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#595 Nine of twelve

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 02:21 PM

 

Always a reason the Twins don't deal prospects for serious,costly, veterans. That's the point of the resurrection of the thread..... It is never time, it is never one piece away, it is always too costly, the other player never wants to come here......

It's not time now and it wasn't time last August. We're not one piece away now, and we weren't one piece away last August. It is too costly now and it was too costly last August. The player doesn't want to come here now and he didn't want to come here last August. These are not excuses. These are reasons, and good ones.

Will it be time at some point in the future? Will we be one piece away at some point in the future? Will the cost be acceptable at some point in the future? Will the player want to come here at some point in the future? I truly hope so.

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#596 FunnyPenguin

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 02:32 PM

 

Seriously, stop with this kind of ‘I told you so posting,’ especially since that wasn’t the narrative. The narrative was he didn’t want to come here, not that it would cost us too much. If you are going to resort to :P posting, at least get it right.

Sheesh, told him :)

 

I thought he was just pointing out a valid point of how excellent he's been since then and that many (perhaps including himself) was wrong about what he would do post trade...

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#597 Vanimal46

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:00 PM

Sheesh, told him :)

I thought he was just pointing out a valid point of how excellent he's been since then and that many (perhaps including himself) was wrong about what he would do post trade...


Meh, you're giving me too much credit. Carole knows I was very much on board trading for Verlander, Cole, frankly every legitimately good player that's been traded over the last couple of years.

I'm just frustrated that every year there are 'excuses', or 'reasons', depending how you want to think of it for not improving the MLB team through trades. When will the stars align where we can seriously consider making a trade such as this?
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#598 nicksaviking

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:12 PM

 

Meh, you're giving me too much credit. Carole knows I was very much on board trading for Verlander, Cole, frankly every legitimately good player that's been traded over the last couple of years.

I'm just frustrated that every year there are 'excuses', or 'reasons', depending how you want to think of it for not improving the MLB team through trades. When will the stars align where we can seriously consider making a trade such as this?

 

Geez, says the guy who also choose Texas over Minnesota! :)

 

My guess is after global warming finally stops making it snow in Minnesota in May and when the American coastline has disappeared enough putting Minneapolis right on a sandy beach on the East Coast. Sorry St. Paul, nice knowing ya.

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#599 Vanimal46

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:14 PM

My guess is after global warming finally stops making it snow in Minnesota in April and October and when the American coastline has disappeared enough putting Minneapolis right on a sandy beach on the East Coast.


Thanks, that made me smile. You're probably not that far off either.

I have a gut feeling a couple years down the road if Chicago's mega prospects work out, and Detroit buys their way to contention we'll look back at this time like the mid 2000s. Wasted opportunity....
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#600 nicksaviking

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:25 PM

 

Thanks, that made me smile. You're probably not that far off either.

I have a gut feeling a couple years down the road if Chicago's mega prospects work out, and Detroit buys their way to contention we'll look back at this time like the mid 2000s. Wasted opportunity....

 

I will regret this period if they don't put an honest effort into getting better players, but I won't regret Verlander; just no chance he'd agree to come here when Houston was calling and a significantly better situation.

 

I didn't want Gerrit Cole, but only because I hated his sinker usage and thought he'd stink in the AL. I was wrong on that one and he's basically dropped that pitch! I was much more bullish on Darvish and trading for Chris Archer.

 

You guys think teams vet Twins Daily archives when they interview you for a GM gig?

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