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Ian Kinsler: Angel Hernandez needs to find a new job.

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#1 SF Twins Fan

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:48 AM

http://www.freep.com...ndez/571202001/

 

 

You don't see a player go into this must depth very often and it's pretty refreshing to be honest.  Kinsler is definitely not the only player, coach or fan that thinks Hernandez is an awful ump.  It'll be interesting to see how much Kinsler is suspended for this, but also to see if any change does come as well.

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#2 bluechipper

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:55 AM

The part about Hernandez yelling at Kinsler when he was a rookie about getting in his way to make a call at first is really weird, and I'm surprised stuff like this goes on. Some of these umpires are just clowns.

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#3 jimbo92107

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:56 AM

“I’m just saying it’s pretty obvious that he needs to stop ruining baseball games.” And, “Candidly, leave the game. No one wants you behind the plate anymore. No one in this game wants you behind the plate any more, none of the players.”

 

Wow, that's heavy. I don't know much about Hernandez, but if he's really like this, the league has to do something. We have all seen umpires insert themselves far too heavily into the game, and it's not why fans buy tickets. Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American. 

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#4 Thrylos

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 11:03 AM

 

 

 

Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American. 

 

Well, it happened to what's his face, and most of us applauded it.

 

Umpires are the only part of the game that is not being held accountable in a transparent way.MLB should have standards of performance and dismiss umpires who do not meet or exceed.Too many egos among the ranks of the umpires, with too much power to effect a game's outcome, and that has to be dealt.

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#5 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 11:03 AM

Hernandez, West and Bucknor have no business being MLB umpires.

With Major League umpires there appears to be absolutely no accountability. No matter how bad they are for how long I do not remember an umpire being demoted or fired because they make an unusual number of bad calls.

I'm not referring to the Jim Joyces of the world. He made a very bad call that lost a perfect game for a kid. But he was a very good umpire. We expect poor calls occasionally. It happens.

 

When it happens again and again we have an issue.

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#6 drjim

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 11:20 AM

This can't help Angel Hernandez's lawsuit against the union.

Papers...business papers.

#7 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 11:36 AM

Here's an idea for Hernandez:
 
Screen Shot 2017-08-02 at 1.04.13 PM

 

 

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#8 mickeymental

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:00 PM

i'm lookin at you, phil cuzzi.

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#9 nicksaviking

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:03 PM

I don't think there's nearly enough turnover in umpiring crews. Sorry to sound ageist, but I think AARP members in professional baseball should be the exception not the rule. If you make it that long, you should be really, really good, not because you're grandfathered in (pun intended).

 

To be good at just about any occupation, I think you need to figure out a way to stay fresh and focused, and you need at least a possibility of job insecurity if performance warrants it.

 

These guys need to have a better incentive to be good and be correct than getting post season work. What happened to the uniform strikezone that was implemented a few years back? Why are we still hearing "Joe West is giving a couple inches off the plate" or "Phil Cuzzi has a high zone today"? They're not supposed to be doing that, why are there no consequences for blatant disregard of the rules?


#10 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:20 PM

“I’m just saying it’s pretty obvious that he needs to stop ruining baseball games.” And, “Candidly, leave the game. No one wants you behind the plate anymore. No one in this game wants you behind the plate any more, none of the players.”

Wow, that's heavy. I don't know much about Hernandez, but if he's really like this, the league has to do something. We have all seen umpires insert themselves far too heavily into the game, and it's not why fans buy tickets. Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American.


Many people have this same misbelief about what the 1st amendment is.
It is there to protect your free speech from GOVERNMENT persecution. Not so that you can say anything you want without repercussions from employers.
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#11 Blackjack

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:21 PM

Kinsler will get fined/suspended and nothing will happen to Hernandez, if the league or union were concerned about him, they would have done something long ago. Plus, it sets a bad, bad precedent if they act now when a player complains. 


#12 Shaitan

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:22 PM

 

Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American. 

This is an aside from the baseball talk, but censorship is when a government restricts individual rights. An employer-employee relationship is a different scenario. This has nothing to do with the constitution or being "American."

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#13 jimbo92107

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 07:53 PM

 

Many people have this same misbelief about what the 1st amendment is.
It is there to protect your free speech from GOVERNMENT persecution. Not so that you can say anything you want without repercussions from employers.

Really? So, a corporation has the right to ban free and honest speech, and punish the speaker? I understand when speech is disruptive to business, but in this case, Kinsler's remarks actually were meant to help the league maintain its integrity. If the league now chooses to fine or suspend Kinsler, he would be within his rights to sue the league.

 

In court, the league would then be asked how they were injured by Kinsler's comments, which explicitly were meant to be helpful. If the league then further punishes Kinsler, they would be opening themselves up to a much larger, more expensive lawsuit. And Kinsler would win...on First Amendment grounds. The reason that works is in the way the amendment was worded, "Congress shall make no law..." That includes laws that otherwise allow corporations to enforce their own internal rules. 

 

I'm no lawyer, but that's my impression of how the First Amendment works. It's supposed to protect free speech unless you use it for truly destructive purposes, like shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, when there is no fire. Pointing out an obviously bad umpire is hardly a destructive observation. The league should thank Kinsler and investigate Hernandez for other incidents of abuse. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct ignorant old me. 

Baseball is easy. Just watch!


#14 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:52 PM

Really? So, a corporation has the right to ban free and honest speech, and punish the speaker? I understand when speech is disruptive to business, but in this case, Kinsler's remarks actually were meant to help the league maintain its integrity. If the league now chooses to fine or suspend Kinsler, he would be within his rights to sue the league.

In court, the league would then be asked how they were injured by Kinsler's comments, which explicitly were meant to be helpful. If the league then further punishes Kinsler, they would be opening themselves up to a much larger, more expensive lawsuit. And Kinsler would win...on First Amendment grounds. The reason that works is in the way the amendment was worded, "Congress shall make no law..." That includes laws that otherwise allow corporations to enforce their own internal rules.

I'm no lawyer, but that's my impression of how the First Amendment works. It's supposed to protect free speech unless you use it for truly destructive purposes, like shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, when there is no fire. Pointing out an obviously bad umpire is hardly a destructive observation. The league should thank Kinsler and investigate Hernandez for other incidents of abuse. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct ignorant old me.


Well sorry you're wrong. That's not what the 1st amendment does.
When it comes to private employers, this has been firmly settled.
Government workers are more complicated, obviously, but that's not applicable here.

That's not to say Kinsler couldn't sue. But, if he did it would be on grounds of breach of contract, not first amendment.

People get fired for saying stupid stuff everyday. In all fields, from fast food workers to lawyers. Every single day.
A bunch of people in MN just got fired today for going to nazi rallies in their spare time, including 2 from Uptown Grill. Every news source says the firings are 100% legal.

Every day all around the country people lose their jobs for posting stupid crap on their personal social media accounts.

A few days ago out it was a cop who shared a Facebook meme about catching your daughter dating a black guy.
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#15 LA VIkes Fan

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:13 PM

The First AMendment protects your right to free speech, it does not guarantee that there will be no consequences from private employers from exercising that right. The Government can't  sanction you but your employer can in many circumstances.  Just ask Colin Kaepernick (actually, I think he's unemployed because he's overpriced and can't play that well, but that's for another discussion). Kinsler will get fined and probably suspended. . 

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#16 Old Twins Cap

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:16 PM

The point is:Joe West made it to 5,000 games or whatever it was.

 

And umpires like him, Angel Hernandez, -- who can forget Phil Cuzzi, stationed down the left field line in the playoffs Twins vs. Yankees, missed that Mauer's late inning line drive both touched the left-fielder and landed fair -- and on, the point being: is there ever any turnover based on performance?

 

Like cops, somehow, bad umpires persist, continuing to make bad calls.Luckily, no one gets killed but it certainly isn't good for the game.

 

In the end, merit should rule selection of umpires.MLB has more data now, can they implement some level of accountability?If not, be transparent and explain to the community of baseball lovers why they can't select based on merit.

 

And Good on Kinsler,whatever it costs him.


#17 Shaitan

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:41 PM

These types of comments are usually settled quietly. Kinsler will probably get an "undisclosed fine" and everyone will move on. 


#18 jimbo92107

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:52 PM

 

Well sorry you're wrong. That's not what the 1st amendment does.
When it comes to private employers, this has been firmly settled.
Government workers are more complicated, obviously, but that's not applicable here.

That's not to say Kinsler couldn't sue. But, if he did it would be on grounds of breach of contract, not first amendment.

People get fired for saying stupid stuff everyday. In all fields, from fast food workers to lawyers. Every single day.
A bunch of people in MN just got fired today for going to nazi rallies in their spare time, including 2 from Uptown Grill. Every news source says the firings are 100% legal.

Every day all around the country people lose their jobs for posting stupid crap on their personal social media accounts.

A few days ago out it was a cop who shared a Facebook meme about catching your daughter dating a black guy.

The salient qualifier here is "stupid stuff." Did Kinsler say something stupid when he criticized Hernandez? No, it was a responsible observation that lots of players doubtless agree with. That is why, if the league decides to fine him or suspend him, he would have very solid grounds to sue. 

 

Breach of contract? Of course. With regards to what? Free speech. You may call it "settled law," but his lawyer will argue that a corporation (or a group of them calling themselves a league) still does not have the right to bar free speech. Laws that determine the structure of corporations must interact with more general rights granted to you and me under the national constitution. Corporate law is a subset of national law. It does not supersede national law. Of course, there I go being naive...

Baseball is easy. Just watch!


#19 PseudoSABR

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 12:02 AM

 

The salient qualifier here is "stupid stuff." Did Kinsler say something stupid when he criticized Hernandez? No, it was a responsible observation that lots of players doubtless agree with. That is why, if the league decides to fine him or suspend him, he would have very solid grounds to sue. 

 

Breach of contract? Of course. With regards to what? Free speech. You may call it "settled law," but his lawyer will argue that a corporation (or a group of them calling themselves a league) still does not have the right to bar free speech. Laws that determine the structure of corporations must interact with more general rights granted to you and me under the national constitution. Corporate law is a subset of national law. It does not supersede national law. Of course, there I go being naive...

Kinsler gave away a lot of his rights to sue when he signed his contract, any suspension grievances are dealt with through whatever he agreed to in the contract (likely an appeal to some MLB board, then likely to private arbitration, and then maybe to US district court).  If Kinsler's suspension wasn't dictated by contract, he may have some standing to sue in non-right-to-work-states. 

 

He probably wouldn't have any constitutional grounds to sue on.  The First Amendment only applies to the Government (Federal/State/local) and 'state' actors.  Because, Major League Baseball is a private association, the First Amendment will not apply.  (It should be noted, that contrary to law under the first amendment, businesses that enter interstate commerce are subject to the equal protection under the 14th amendment and Civil Rights Act of 1964--hence the controversy over Hobby Lobby and bakery-homophobes).  

 

That said, if Hernandez were to sue Kinsler for defamation, Kinsler would have a viable defense in asserting that what he said about Hernandez was, indeed, true.  I bet this is what you're thinking.

Edited by PseudoSABR, 17 August 2017 - 12:06 AM.

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#20 Vanimal46

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:36 AM

Maybe MLB should automate umpires, because who would want this job? I generally don't rip on umpires from personal experiences... 3 groups will always have an issue with your ability to call a game - both teams, and the fans. I think we all take for granted how difficult it truly is to be an umpire at the highest level in the sport.