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The short leash and rookies

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#41 Doomtints

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 08:56 AM

 

I would have been really, really upset if Molitor hadn't removed Enns at that point.  

 

It was absolutely the right decision.  

 

Exactly. He will pitch again, and even if he made it out of that jam, the Twins *still* wouldn't have enough data to know if he could be consistently good!


#42 Doomtints

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:00 AM

 

Typically, you just don't see starting pitchers pulled after allowing only 2 runs rookies or veterans. 

 

It was the current situation in the game, not "only allowing 2 runs." 

 

If we run the numbers on how many pitchers get pulled when the bases are loaded and a run is walked in, I am betting it is a high percentage.  

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#43 nicksaviking

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:02 AM

I don't like the quick hook, but I didn't get to watch the game until after the 4th inning so all I'd be doing is holding Molitor's past actions against him. I checked the game thread and there didn't seem to be much angst so I'd guess enough of our posters watching agreed with decision. And Molitor backers seem to be in the minority here these days.

 

I will say that had he pulled Enns in the 3rd and replaced him with Gee, I would have been awfully suspicious that Molitor was trying to make a point to the front office about who he REALLY wanted to get the 5th spot in the rotation.

 

Alas, that didn't happen so there's no visible angle there. It could have been fun drama though!


#44 Doomtints

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:11 AM

 

I don't like the quick hook, but I didn't get to watch the game until after the 4th inning so all I'd be doing is holding Molitor's past actions against him. I checked the game thread and there didn't seem to be much angst so I'd guess enough of our posters watching agreed with decision. And Molitor backers seem to be in the minority here these days.

 

I will say that had he pulled Enns in the 3rd and replaced him with Gee, I would have been awfully suspicious that Molitor was trying to make a point to the front office about who he REALLY wanted to get the 5th spot in the rotation.

 

Alas, that didn't happen so there's no visible angle there. It could have been fun drama though!

 

I think it is Molitor who is holding back Gee. He is on record as having said after Gee was recently called up, "I still haven't seen you pitch yet, so I don't know how or when to use you."  Well, you're the manager, Paul, whose fault is it that you didn't ever see Gee pitch?


#45 Thrylos

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:33 AM

This was a horrible decision, unless it was a game 7 of a post-season series or the last game of the season.For 2 reasons:

 

-Enns had gas in his tank. He threw 50 pitches, he was good for another 50 or so.He was throwing strikes (70% of them) and allowed only 1 earned run into the third inning and the Twins had a 6-2 lead.This is not a message you want to send to a young pitcher.He needs to learn how to get out of those jams in the major league. He was ahead 6-2 and the Twins' win expectation was 74% when he was taken out.Santana has been in similar situations and was not taken out.So has Santiago, so has Hughes.Cannot tread your pitchers differently.That gives the wrong message

 

- You have another series starting the next day.You are up 6-2 with a 74% win probability.You cannot afford to burn your pen that is not that good to begin with.If Gibby pitches a dud today, the Twins do not have the options they should have in the pen, and the whole series gets jeopardized. 

 

You play to win series at this point of the season, not single games.

Edited by Thrylos, 11 August 2017 - 09:34 AM.

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#46 nicksaviking

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:39 AM

 

I think it is Molitor who is holding back Gee. He is on record as having said after Gee was recently called up, "I still haven't seen you pitch yet, so I don't know how or when to use you."  Well, you're the manager, Paul, whose fault is it that you didn't ever see Gee pitch?

 

Hadn't heard that one. I'm surprised though, I thought these journeymen vets were right up Molitor's alley.

 

But Gee-wiz, was Molitor sleeping last year? Gee pitched against the Twins 5 times last season including 4 starts!

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#47 Circus Boy

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:00 AM

 

This was a horrible decision, unless it was a game 7 of a post-season series or the last game of the season.For 2 reasons:

 

-Enns had gas in his tank. He threw 50 pitches, he was good for another 50 or so.He was throwing strikes (70% of them) and allowed only 1 earned run into the third inning and the Twins had a 6-2 lead.This is not a message you want to send to a young pitcher.He needs to learn how to get out of those jams in the major league. He was ahead 6-2 and the Twins' win expectation was 74% when he was taken out.Santana has been in similar situations and was not taken out.So has Santiago, so has Hughes.Cannot tread your pitchers differently.That gives the wrong message

 

- You have another series starting the next day.You are up 6-2 with a 74% win probability.You cannot afford to burn your pen that is not that good to begin with.If Gibby pitches a dud today, the Twins do not have the options they should have in the pen, and the whole series gets jeopardized. 

 

You play to win series at this point of the season, not single games.

I was listening on the radio, and even then I could tell that Enns wasn't going to get anyone out the second time through the lineup. Yank him, win, move on.

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#48 old nurse

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:07 AM

 

I understand the "don't let the game get away" part but he had also only allowed 2 runs and only one of those earned (because of his own error,) but it's a pattern that does not let pitchers develop and taxes the bullpen. Comparing it to Gibson who is a veteran is apples and oranges. I guess Mejia has made it through and maybe it's the right approach (get the kids feet wet and pull him before he gets crushed) I just would have liked to see the manager express some faith in the young kid and see how he rebounds from giving up his first walk as a major leaguer. It's not like he walked the bases full...

One wrong pitch and it is six runs given up.. The probability of a pitch going over the middle of the plate increases it dramatically when the pitcher can't fid the edge like Enns was doing.There were very few swinging strikes. One game sample size. People shouldn't judge Enns from one game. Molitor has had plenty of games this year, and other years, to learn that when a pitcher's stuff isn't working to get them out of there.

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#49 USAFChief

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:14 AM

This was a horrible decision, unless it was a game 7 of a post-season series or the last game of the season. For 2 reasons:

-Enns had gas in his tank. He threw 50 pitches, he was good for another 50 or so. He was throwing strikes (70% of them) and allowed only 1 earned run into the third inning and the Twins had a 6-2 lead. This is not a message you want to send to a young pitcher. He needs to learn how to get out of those jams in the major league. He was ahead 6-2 and the Twins' win expectation was 74% when he was taken out. Santana has been in similar situations and was not taken out. So has Santiago, so has Hughes. Cannot tread your pitchers differently. That gives the wrong message

- You have another series starting the next day. You are up 6-2 with a 74% win probability. You cannot afford to burn your pen that is not that good to begin with. If Gibby pitches a dud today, the Twins do not have the options they should have in the pen, and the whole series gets jeopardized.

You play to win series at this point of the season, not single games.


I disagree with pretty much every word of this post, but I'm going to question one point in particular:

You cannot treat your pitchers differently?

I think it's 180 degrees from that...you HAVE to treat your pitchers differently. They don't all have the same ability.
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#50 old nurse

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:19 AM

 

The bases loaded walk was like a 9-pitch walk

That much contact the batter wasn't being fooled by the pitches.A shaky debut doesn't mean much. It probably would have been better if his nervousness would have manifested itself as sweaty palms. Hopefully they go through with Enns on what he was doing right to get to the majors and not doing last night.He was doing something right in the minors as he had decent strikeout rates and consistent low HR/9 rates.


#51 LA VIkes Fan

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:36 AM

I was watching the game and Enns had lost his control. I'd love to have seen him get one more hitter but frankly that was it if he didn't get that guy out. He will get another start, probably at least two give the schedule.  Starting next Tuesday we have 14 games in 13 days before the next scheduled day off. He should get two starts in that group of games. He'll get his shot. The Twins had a chance to make this their first 5 game win streak of the year. I think it was a game to manage to win rather than develop a young pitcher. there will be plenty of opportunity for that. I don't always agree with Molitor (and I don't think he's the right manager for this team), but I do think he made the right call last night. Maybe one hitter too early but now I'm quibbling over the minor details.

 

The positive news is that Enns looked like he has some real potential last night. He needs seasoning and time, but he looks like he could actually be a part of a MLB rotation on a good team.  Soooooo much better than the Turleys and Tepesches of the world. We might actually have something here...   

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#52 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:39 AM

 

Typically, you just don't see starting pitchers pulled after allowing only 2 runs rookies or veterans. Maybe this is a new direction in baseball overall with starting pitchers not going as deep or throwing as many pitches as they did 20-30 years ago. It's not that I think rookies should have extra leash, it probably needs to be shorter than for veterans, I just believe in letting starters work through problems. Maybe sometimes the writing is on the wall after only 2 runs have scored as it seems it may have been last night.

Not all rookies are the same. And not all situations are the same at the point 'only allowing two runs.' His FIRST cup of coffee, in a game that could have very easily gone south, quickly, with someone who isn't projected to be like (put in any higher rated hopeful pitcher here), so pull him and hopefully preserve the game. He did okay his first couple innings, got a hit (yeah, I know, kind of funny, but still), he will take with him some good positives. Heck, that he was up at all, is something. I don't think there can ever be a standard 'allow so many innings' for all rookies to 'develop' or 'evaluate' (which isn't the time or place for anyway in this particular situation, imo.) He got his taste, he's got some things in his mind now (hopefully) of how to better approach things (if he can), that's the learning and development right there, no matter the length of the outing. It was enough. Onto the next game with momentum of a win rather than a deflating blow out.

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#53 bighat

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:44 AM

The Twins are .5 games out of a wild card berth today. It's a logjam.If they lose tonight, they could be behind 4 other teams looking up.Letting a rookie take his lumps in the middle of a tight wildcard race is not something we Twins fans want to see. This situation was a special circumstance and treated as such.


#54 jimbo92107

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:52 AM

I went back and watched the bottom of the 1st through 3rd innings of Thursday's game to see what I was missing about Dietrich Enns.

 

First, he's definitely a soft-throwing control lefty, which we've seen several times in recent memory, starting with Scott Diamond, going to Andrew Albers, Tommy Milone and Hector Santiago. None of them lasted very long.

 

Second, he knows how to pitch. He was spotting a down-plane fastball low in the zone. Velocity was around 90 mph. 

 

Third, his curve ball was a disaster waiting to happen. It had a big, fat hump in the middle, the kind of trajectory that would make Kirby Puckett pay a man to throw his curve ball. I believe Puckett called that kind of curve "a gift from God." If Enns doesn't shave that hump, throw it lower and control the depth better, he'll get killed.

 

Fourth, he does have a change up, which I saw him use to get a whiff on one guy. He should use it more often. He absolutely must use it, especially against righties, who are salivating as they sit on that hanging curve. 

 

It is barely possible that Dietrich Enns could survive in the majors. He must spot his fastball with great accuracy low in the zone. He must throw his curve with less hang. He must throw his change up more often, especially against righties. If he could develop a fourth pitch, that would help, too. Maybe most important, he has to learn to pitch like Bartolo Colon, varying speeds, placements, mixing his pitches, and staying away from the middle. A soft-throwing lefty has to be a real artist, or he'll get slaughtered by all those right handed batters. 

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#55 Dr. Evil

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:59 AM

 

This was a horrible decision, unless it was a game 7 of a post-season series or the last game of the season.For 2 reasons:

 

-Enns had gas in his tank. He threw 50 pitches, he was good for another 50 or so.He was throwing strikes (70% of them) and allowed only 1 earned run into the third inning and the Twins had a 6-2 lead.This is not a message you want to send to a young pitcher.He needs to learn how to get out of those jams in the major league. He was ahead 6-2 and the Twins' win expectation was 74% when he was taken out.Santana has been in similar situations and was not taken out.So has Santiago, so has Hughes.Cannot tread your pitchers differently.That gives the wrong message

 

- You have another series starting the next day.You are up 6-2 with a 74% win probability.You cannot afford to burn your pen that is not that good to begin with.If Gibby pitches a dud today, the Twins do not have the options they should have in the pen, and the whole series gets jeopardized. 

 

You play to win series at this point of the season, not single games. I disagree. Enns threw a high number of pitches in a very short amount of time. He was all over the place with his control and the results if left in the game were highly predictable. It was a good proactive decision by Molitor.

 

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#56 Dr. Evil

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 11:01 AM

What the heck. I was trying to quote a post and reply to it and it treated it as if I were modifying his post.

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#57 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 11:14 AM

 

What the heck. I was trying to quote a post and reply to it and it treated it as if I were modifying his post.

Sometimes the cursor gets 'stuck' inside the quote box and won't go to where you want to type a response. Try adding a space or two or a return inside the box, the click outside the box. Or a return or two, then delete (backspace). I'm not sure why it does this sometimes, but it does; it's not consistent.

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#58 old nurse

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 11:31 AM

 

This was a horrible decision, unless it was a game 7 of a post-season series or the last game of the season.For 2 reasons:

 

-Enns had gas in his tank. He threw 50 pitches, he was good for another 50 or so.He was throwing strikes (70% of them) and allowed only 1 earned run into the third inning and the Twins had a 6-2 lead.This is not a message you want to send to a young pitcher.He needs to learn how to get out of those jams in the major league. He was ahead 6-2 and the Twins' win expectation was 74% when he was taken out.Santana has been in similar situations and was not taken out.So has Santiago, so has Hughes.Cannot tread your pitchers differently.That gives the wrong message

 

- You have another series starting the next day.You are up 6-2 with a 74% win probability.You cannot afford to burn your pen that is not that good to begin with.If Gibby pitches a dud today, the Twins do not have the options they should have in the pen, and the whole series gets jeopardized. 

 

You play to win series at this point of the season, not single games.

Playing to win the series. I guess Molitor did that with the Brewer series. Gibson pitches a dud, he has Gee lined up to go long.The small samplesize was showingfar too much good contact. Had Enns been left in the second guessers would be berating Molitor for leaving Enns in the game. If they need an arm they can send Enns down and call up a pitcher


#59 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 11:59 AM

 

I disagree with pretty much every word of this post, but I'm going to question one point in particular:

You cannot treat your pitchers differently?

I think it's 180 degrees from that...you HAVE to treat your pitchers differently. They don't all have the same ability.

Absolutely. It was the guy's first time facing MLB hitting in a game that was in hand and needed to stay that way.

 

Would I have pulled Enns? Dunno. Probably not. I would have given him at least one more batter, I think. But I can't get too pissed at Molitor for feeling differently. If it was Santana out there, would he have left him in? Of course, as he should. Santana has a bajillion games of experience under his belt. Enns does not.

 

So Enns was pulled early and the team got the win. And Enns gets to give it another go in four days. The clubhouse is upbeat and he's getting a taste of contention in mid-August. It's a good place to be.

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#60 Riverbrian

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 12:06 PM

I think it is perfectly reasonable to be a little impressed with Enns and still totally agree with Molitor pulling him. 

 

Please consider that it was his first start... Now I understand that most of us on Twinsdaily would treat a first start in the majors as just another day and just do what you do with little effort and ease but I am willing to consider that his heart was racing quite a bit and factor that in. 

 

Despite being his first start and considering the natural nerves that go along with that. His control was fantastic for the first couple of innings it wasn't like he was horrible in the fateful third inning and for this I was personally impressed. I'm Ok with him getting another start. 

 

I think you also need to consider that he has been with the organization for about a minute and he had met his Pitching Coach about a second prior to taking the mound. There is no way that Molitor and Allen would know anything about him. 

 

I think you also need to consider that the tying run was at the plate and he had been hanging curveballs fairly consistently. 

 

If I was Molitor... using my brain and thought processes... I would have pulled him at that very moment and I would have told him good job in the dugout. 

 

The only thing I would have done differently. I would have brought in one of my high leverage guys instead. I would looked at everybody available and gone with the guy that I trusted the most.

 

I'm not sure that Molitor feels that way about Busenitz judging on his prior usage. 

 

If Molitor made a mistake... that was it... and he got away with it. Now I hope he has gained a little more trust in Busenitz so he doesn't atrophy in the bullpen. 

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