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The short leash and rookies

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#1 goulik

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:24 AM

I have been having a REAL hard time with Molitors short leash on rookie pitchers. When I heard Enns was getting the call I wondered if he would get 3 innings in. We saw this with Mejia (and others) but I just don't believe a rookie should be pulled after giving up 2 runs in their first MLB game. this more than anything else he does makes me question Molitor. Explain to me why I'm wrong...

Edited by goulik, 11 August 2017 - 06:30 AM.


#2 drjim

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:30 AM

Enns isn't good and Molitor wanted to win the game. Saved a lot of damage.
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#3 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:37 AM

I'm not sure what to think. With the Twins suddenly back in it, winning the game is a bit more important than developing the rookie. On the other hand, selling last month says the team wants to develop younger talent. You won't know what Enns has when you don't let him deal with a bad jam.

 

Biggest problem to the quick hook, in my opinion, is taxing a pen that isn't that good. It certainly was encouraging to see Busenitz succeed, and I'd like to see more of that, but asking the pen to go 6 innings last night doesn't bode well for tonight.

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#4 amjgt

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:41 AM

I'm not sure what to think. With the Twins suddenly back in it, winning the game is a bit more important than developing the rookie. On the other hand, selling last month says the team wants to develop younger talent. You won't know what Enns has when you don't let him deal with a bad jam.

Biggest problem to the quick hook, in my opinion, is taxing a pen that isn't that good. It certainly was encouraging to see Busenitz succeed, and I'd like to see more of that, but asking the pen to go 6 innings last night doesn't bode well for tonight.

We didn't use our long man or any of our top 3 relief options. Bullpen will be fine tonight
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#5 wsnydes

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:42 AM

 

Enns isn't good and Molitor wanted to win the game. Saved a lot of damage.

How do we know this after 50 pitches?  I don't care if he threw 50 perfectly placed strikes and struck out everyone he faced in 50 pitches, you can't tell anything from that small of a sample.  That's not fair or reasonable.

 

You may be right in the end, but one outing is hardly a way to determine the viability of an MLB starter.

Edited by wsnydes, 11 August 2017 - 06:50 AM.

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#6 old nurse

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:45 AM

 

I have been having a REAL hard time with Molitors short leash on rookie pitchers. When I heard Enns was getting the call I wondered if he would get 3 innings in. We saw this with Mejia (and others) but I just don't believe a rookie should be pulled after giving up 2 runs in their first MLB game. this more than anything else he does makes me question Molitor. Explain to me why I'm wrong...

Bases loaded, the command and control pitcher can't find the strike zone and you want to win the game.The short leash was created by the pitcher.Gibson has been pulled early multiple times. How many of the call ups this year did the game get away?Enough that the Twins are not in first place.

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#7 Carole Keller

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:57 AM

For his first cup of coffee, I'm okay with it. And as others said, the object was to win the game. Take no chances and stop the bleed before it's a gusher.
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#8 spycake

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:16 AM

How do we know this after 50 pitches? I don't care if he threw 50 perfectly placed strikes and struck out everyone he faced in 50 pitches, you can't tell anything from that small of a sample. That's not fair or reasonable.

You may be right in the end, but one outing is hardly a way to determine the viability of an MLB starter.


He's not getting released, he is getting pulled from a game. Enns will have more opportunities to show he is better than the current scouting consensus. But in the meantime, we want to win games.
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#9 wsnydes

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:20 AM

 

He's not getting released, he is getting pulled from a game. Enns will have more opportunities to show he is better than the current scouting consensus. But in the meantime, we want to win games.

Where did I insinuate that?  I simply asked how another poster could conclude that "Enns isn't good" after only 50 pitches.

 

I didn't agree with the quick hook, but I at least understand the logic.  I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample.  That is what I was questioning.

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#10 mikelink45

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:24 AM

We won, the second time through the lineup it was obvious that things had changed and I am fine with pulling him.

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#11 spycake

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:24 AM

Where did I insinuate that? I simply asked how another poster could conclude that "Enns isn't good" after only 50 pitches.

I didn't agree with the quick hook, but I at least understand the logic. I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample. That is what I was questioning.


You just did it again. Molitor isn't making any meaningful determination on Enns, he is just trying to win a single game. If Gardy had pinch hit for Kubel in that 2004 playoff game vs Rivera, it would have been because he was struggling and he wanted to win the game. You don't need to give players the biggest possible sample size every game.
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#12 goulik

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:27 AM

I understand the "don't let the game get away" part but he had also only allowed 2 runs and only one of those earned (because of his own error,) but it's a pattern that does not let pitchers develop and taxes the bullpen. Comparing it to Gibson who is a veteran is apples and oranges. I guess Mejia has made it through and maybe it's the right approach (get the kids feet wet and pull him before he gets crushed) I just would have liked to see the manager express some faith in the young kid and see how he rebounds from giving up his first walk as a major leaguer. It's not like he walked the bases full...

#13 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:28 AM

I groaned when it happened but it wasn't a terrible decision. The Twins had that win nearly locked in if they get out of that inning.

And they did.

And it's not as if the bullpen has gotten much work lately. The win was more important than the starting pitcher. Enns will get another shot in five days.
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#14 goulik

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:30 AM

You just did it again. Molitor isn't making any meaningful determination on Enns, he is just trying to win a single game. If Gardy had pinch hit for Kubel in that 2004 playoff game vs Rivera, it would have been because he was struggling and he wanted to win the game. You don't need to give players the biggest possible sample size every game.


He didn't do it again, he was responding to and quoted Drjim above...
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#15 spycake

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:32 AM

He didn't do it again, he was responding to and quoted Drjim above...


He said "I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample." That's not what Molitor was doing last night, he was trying to win a game. Enns' viability will be determined by his full body of work.

#16 goulik

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:35 AM

He said "I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample." That's not what Molitor was doing last night, he was trying to win a game. Enns' viability will be determined by his full body of work.


Drjim Stated that Enns wasn't any good and Drjim was the one making the determination about viability... He is not sayin Molitor made that determination...
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#17 wsnydes

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:35 AM

 

You just did it again. Molitor isn't making any meaningful determination on Enns, he is just trying to win a single game. If Gardy had pinch hit for Kubel in that 2004 playoff game vs Rivera, it would have been because he was struggling and he wanted to win the game. You don't need to give players the biggest possible sample size every game.

Please reread my initial post and the post I was quoting.  I never said anything about Molitor.  Another poster said "Enns isn't good".  That's what I'm questioning.  Not Molitor.

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#18 spycake

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:35 AM

Did you all miss the near grand slam by Aguilar? Enns had enough evaluation opportunities for one night. :)
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#19 spycake

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:37 AM

I will let drjim speak for himself, but his determination is not final either. It's probably based on the fact that Enns is a lightly regarded 26 year old making his MLB debut. Not every player deserves equal leash in their MLB debut, or any game for that matter.
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#20 goulik

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:41 AM

Did you all miss the near grand slam by Aguilar? Enns had enough evaluation opportunities for one night. :)


Guess I missed that...