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Twins Candidates For AL Rookie Of The Year

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18 replies to this topic

#1 jwb1226

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:43 AM

Will both Revere and Diamond be top 5 roy for the a.l.?

#2 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:50 AM

For sure Revere won't because he's not a rookie. He had far too many at bats last year.

Diamond will be close. Obviously Mike Trout will win it. Yu Darvish will be up there.

#3 Badsmerf

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

Pretty sure I posted this a while back about Diamond deserving some ROY love. Obviously Trout is a sure thing, but Diamond deserves more attention than he is given.

#4 James

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

I would bet that Darvish will get more votes than Diamond. He's pretty high profile. Does he deserve more votes than Diamond, I don't think so. But he's a very high profile guy and he does have 162 K's up to this point and he still makes the front page of ESPN.com on occasion. I'm not saying that only looking at stirkeouts and ESPN hits should determine who gets the ROY, but he still has a lot of hype around him, and that's hard to get away from.

I hope I'm wrong about that though and Diamond ends up being second in ROY votes (like Seth said, Trout will definitely win it).

You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.


#5 stringer bell

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:44 PM

Pretty sure I posted this a while back about Diamond deserving some ROY love. Obviously Trout is a sure thing, but Diamond deserves more attention than he is given.

Diamond certainly, to this point, deserves to be considered ahead of Darvish. Darvish has wins, Ks, and pitching in a pennant race. Diamond has everything else, especially a much lower ERA and 10 wins for a last place team.

#6 biggentleben

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:56 PM

Could end up not being top 5 at all with Yoenis Cespedes, Chris Carter, Will Middlebrooks, Matt Moore, Wei-Yin Chen, Jose Quintana, Jarrod Parker, and more all in the mix. Diamond is 4th in WAR among AL rookies right now, according to ESPN, behind Trout, Quintana, and Chen, but I could see Darvish and Cespedes creeping above him in voting, along with Carter or Moore if they help their team to the playoffs.
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#7 John Bonnes

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:39 PM

Could end up not being top 5 at all with Yoenis Cespedes, Chris Carter, Will Middlebrooks, Matt Moore, Wei-Yin Chen, Jose Quintana, Jarrod Parker, and more all in the mix. Diamond is 4th in WAR among AL rookies right now, according to ESPN, behind Trout, Quintana, and Chen, but I could see Darvish and Cespedes creeping above him in voting, along with Carter or Moore if they help their team to the playoffs.


It has been a remarkable year for rookies. Some years Diamond's performance would have won it. This year, you're right - he might be completely overlooked.

#8 biggentleben

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:18 PM

Could end up not being top 5 at all with Yoenis Cespedes, Chris Carter, Will Middlebrooks, Matt Moore, Wei-Yin Chen, Jose Quintana, Jarrod Parker, and more all in the mix. Diamond is 4th in WAR among AL rookies right now, according to ESPN, behind Trout, Quintana, and Chen, but I could see Darvish and Cespedes creeping above him in voting, along with Carter or Moore if they help their team to the playoffs.


It has been a remarkable year for rookies. Some years Diamond's performance would have won it. This year, you're right - he might be completely overlooked.


In 2010, the NL had a rookie class for the ages:

Buster Posey, Jason Heyward, Giancarlo Stanton, Starlin Castro, Neil Walker, Ike Davis, Gaby Sanchez, Jaime Garcia, Steven Strasburg, John Axford, Jon Niese, Ian Desmond, and David Freese.
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#9 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:26 PM

In 2010, the NL had a rookie class for the ages:

Buster Posey, Jason Heyward, Giancarlo Stanton, Starlin Castro, Neil Walker, Ike Davis, Gaby Sanchez, Jaime Garcia, Steven Strasburg, John Axford, Jon Niese, Ian Desmond, and David Freese.


Yeah, that NL class was ridiculous.

I think it will be criminal if Diamond doesn't make the top five. He probably deserves the second spot behind Trout and he certainly isn't lower than three.

#10 B Richard

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:48 PM

I don't think diamond cracks the top five, not that he doesn't deserve it though. Going into the year guys like Cespedes Darvish and Trout were all highly-touted. Up to now they have all performed well (in the case of Trout, phenomenally). At the outset of the season, there was little speculation about Diamond or his impact for the Twins outside of the immediate Twins fanbase. I expect sexy/big name guys such as Darvish Moore Cespedes and Middlebrooks if he recovers well to overshadow Diamond's bid with Trout winning it all, of course. Diamond deserves more attention than he is getting, but alas, like many great players outside the Eastern Time Zone he won't get the recognition he deserves.

#11 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:00 PM

Diamond would certainly be in contention if it weren't for the historical season by the android Mike Trout. So far this has probably been the best rookie season ever by an AL player. The only one that really challenges it is Shoeless Joe Jackson in 1911. Jackson had a 193 OPS+ rookie year, but didn't steal many bases that season. Not many HRs either since ballparks were very large at the time. Trout's OPS+ of 180 is even better than Ted Williams 1939 of 160. Then you factor in that he has 38 Stolen bases and plays great defense and the margin is wider. It's been better than McGwire's 49 HR year too. I've only been looking at AL rookie seasons and it's fairly likely the greatest of all time (should he finish on pace). The NL hasn't had as many historical batters as the more celebrated AL has, but you never know. A season like Diamond's may win it 4/10 years. It's still really good.

Edited by YourHouseIsMyHouse, 16 August 2012 - 10:04 PM.


#12 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:05 PM

At the outset of the season, there was little speculation about Diamond or his impact for the Twins outside of the immediate Twins fanbase.


Hell, most of the Twins fanbase didn't speculate much on Diamond. He's one of the guys who is proving the SABR guys wrong with every start. I still don't think it's sustainable but I enjoy being wrong in situations like this one...

#13 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

Trout's OPS+ of 180 is even better than Ted Williams 1939 of 160.


How dare you compare Trout to the Splendid Splinter? I'm hissing at you.

(I'm a huge Williams fan... Think he's the greatest baseball player of all time.)

#14 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:11 PM

Trout's OPS+ of 180 is even better than Ted Williams 1939 of 160.


How dare you compare Trout to the Splendid Splinter? I'm hissing at you.

(I'm a huge Williams fan... Think he's the greatest baseball player of all time.)


I really love Williams too, but I'm firm on 1. Ruth 2. Williams 3. Cobb
Just makes it all the more crazy for me. If he gets any better than he would just ruin baseball for all of us. .400 BA 70 SBs 50HRs possible?

Edited by YourHouseIsMyHouse, 16 August 2012 - 10:13 PM.


#15 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

I really love Williams too, but I'm firm on 1. Ruth 2. Williams 3. Cobb
Just makes it all the more crazy for me. If he gets any better than he would just ruin baseball for all of us. .400 BA 70 SBs 50HRs possible?


I love what Trout is doing but nobody can be both Williams and Henderson. You can't hit for that high a BA and still hit that many 2B/3B/HR and steal that many bases. At some point, all those things start to conflict with one another.

Rickey Henderson was able to steal that many bases because he didn't have a great BA but had decent power. He had a fantastic OBP, though... All those times being walked to first helped him steal a veritable crap-ton of bases at second. If he would have had Williams' BA, more of those appearances would have been on second, third, or homers... A much more difficult way to get a stolen base.

(by the way, you've now touched on one of my other favorite players... I think Henderson deserves top ten all-time status but rarely gets a mention, the dude was a straight-up menace in so many ways)

#16 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:27 AM


I really love Williams too, but I'm firm on 1. Ruth 2. Williams 3. Cobb
Just makes it all the more crazy for me. If he gets any better than he would just ruin baseball for all of us. .400 BA 70 SBs 50HRs possible?


I love what Trout is doing but nobody can be both Williams and Henderson. You can't hit for that high a BA and still hit that many 2B/3B/HR and steal that many bases. At some point, all those things start to conflict with one another.

Rickey Henderson was able to steal that many bases because he didn't have a great BA but had decent power. He had a fantastic OBP, though... All those times being walked to first helped him steal a veritable crap-ton of bases at second. If he would have had Williams' BA, more of those appearances would have been on second, third, or homers... A much more difficult way to get a stolen base.

(by the way, you've now touched on one of my other favorite players... I think Henderson deserves top ten all-time status but rarely gets a mention, the dude was a straight-up menace in so many ways)


Ugh. Rickey Henderson. Hate his personality, playing style, and not popular for me. I like big power players due to my affection for OPS and OPS+ and you can imagine my discomfort with the Twins from that statement. He is a top 15 *gulp* top 10 hitter (Painfully and slowly typed), but not overall player for me. I could go on and on about my top 10 batters and my all-time dream team. The most under-appreciated player is by far Mike Piazza. He's without a doubt the greatest catcher of all-time because of how immensely better he was as a batter than anyone else behind the plate. The sports media ruled by older generations just refuses to give any historical credit to the players of today's game. Maybe 10 or 15 years down the road the public will finally realize it. Chipper Jones also actually could give Schmidt a VERY good run for his money as the greatest 3B.

#17 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:45 AM

Ugh. Rickey Henderson. Hate his personality, playing style, and not popular for me. I like big power players due to my affection for OPS and OPS+ and you can imagine my discomfort with the Twins from that statement. He is a top 15 *gulp* top 10 hitter (Painfully and slowly typed), but not overall player for me. I could go on and on about my top 10 batters and my all-time dream team. The most under-appreciated player is by far Mike Piazza. He's without a doubt the greatest catcher of all-time because of how immensely better he was as a batter than anyone else behind the plate. The sports media ruled by older generations just refuses to give any historical credit to the players of today's game. Maybe 10 or 15 years down the road the public will finally realize it. Chipper Jones also actually could give Schmidt a VERY good run for his money as the greatest 3B.


I love me some Piazza but he wasn't even the best catcher of his generation (but he was one of the best hitters). Pudge holds that title easily, IMO. He's a higher WAR player and despite that metric's inability to capture the catcher's position, Ivan was a much better player.

When it comes to catchers, you basically have Pudge, Yogi, and Johnny.

#18 biggentleben

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:24 AM

Ugh. Rickey Henderson. Hate his personality, playing style, and not popular for me. I like big power players due to my affection for OPS and OPS+ and you can imagine my discomfort with the Twins from that statement. He is a top 15 *gulp* top 10 hitter (Painfully and slowly typed), but not overall player for me. I could go on and on about my top 10 batters and my all-time dream team. The most under-appreciated player is by far Mike Piazza. He's without a doubt the greatest catcher of all-time because of how immensely better he was as a batter than anyone else behind the plate. The sports media ruled by older generations just refuses to give any historical credit to the players of today's game. Maybe 10 or 15 years down the road the public will finally realize it. Chipper Jones also actually could give Schmidt a VERY good run for his money as the greatest 3B.


I love me some Piazza but he wasn't even the best catcher of his generation (but he was one of the best hitters). Pudge holds that title easily, IMO. He's a higher WAR player and despite that metric's inability to capture the catcher's position, Ivan was a much better player.

When it comes to catchers, you basically have Pudge, Yogi, and Johnny.


And McCann

/sarcasm

In all seriousness, we were blessed to see some tremendous hitting from catchers in the 90s-early 2000s, but we have seen the pendulum swing back the other way to defensive emphasis, as it has at SS and CF. A guy providing plus-plus defense, but hitting .240/.290/.375 wouldn't sniff starting jobs in the 90s, but that's not an outlandish line for an up-the-middle player now. That defensive emphasis just makes what Trout is doing as a CF-type all the more impressive.
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#19 biggentleben

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:27 AM

[quote name='YourHouseIsMyHouse'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp'][quote name='YourHouseIsMyHouse']
I really love Williams too, but I'm firm on 1. Ruth 2. Williams 3. Cobb
Just makes it all the more crazy for me. If he gets any better than he would just ruin baseball for all of us. .400 BA 70 SBs 50HRs possible?[/QUOTE]

I love what Trout is doing but nobody can be both Williams and Henderson. You can't hit for that high a BA and still hit that many 2B/3B/HR and steal that many bases. At some point, all those things start to conflict with one another.

Rickey Henderson was able to steal that many bases because he didn't have a great BA but had decent power. He had a fantastic OBP, though... All those times being walked to first helped him steal a veritable crap-ton of bases at second. If he would have had Williams' BA, more of those appearances would have been on second, third, or homers... A much more difficult way to get a stolen base.

(by the way, you've now touched on one of my other favorite players... I think Henderson deserves top ten all-time status but rarely gets a mention, the dude was a straight-up menace in so many ways)[/QUOTE]

Ugh. Rickey Henderson. Hate his personality, playing style, and not popular for me. I like big power players due to my affection for OPS and OPS+ and you can imagine my discomfort with the Twins from that statement. He is a top 15 *gulp* top 10 hitter (Painfully and slowly typed), but not overall player for me. I could go on and on about my top 10 batters and my all-time dream team. The most under-appreciated player is by far Mike Piazza. He's without a doubt the greatest catcher of all-time because of how immensely better he was as a batter than anyone else behind the plate. The sports media ruled by older generations just refuses to give any historical credit to the players of today's game. Maybe 10 or 15 years down the road the public will finally realize it. Chipper Jones also actually could give Schmidt a VERY good run for his money as the greatest 3B.[/QUOTE]

I love Chipper (how about that night last night?!), but he struggles to be the best 3B in his own team's history. That's not a knock on him, as I honestly believe the top 4 3B of all time are (in no particular order) Schmidt, Chipper, Eddie Mathews, and Brooks Robinson, so to say Chipper is even 4th in that group is saying something. Here's something to ponder with Chipper: he will retire leading more career qualified average categories all time for switch hitters than Pete Rose and Mickey Mantle combined. Ridiculous.
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