Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Article: Twins 6, Mariners 2: Berrios Cruises, Gimenez Bruises

jose berrios chris gimenez
  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#21 Steve Lein

Steve Lein

    Senior Member - MiLB Report Contributor

  • Members
  • 1,436 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:41 AM

 

Yeah.  Being able to see him play over the past few years, I don't know if Buxton has a read feel for where the outfield wall is.  In the video above, I don't see him even looking.

 

This is my biggest concern with him. 

 

He makes a ton of awesome catches, we all know that.

 

But his landings...leave a lot to be desired.

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 45, Speed: 45. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but will sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#22 Tom Froemming

Tom Froemming

    Ft Myers

  • Members
  • 470 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:49 AM

Regarding the Wilk decision, my guess is he's the guy they feel is mostly likely going to give them five innings. This doubleheader is creating a logistical nightmare for a team that can ill afford to wear down it's bullpen.

 

Turley is such a wild card, and as much as I like Mejia he's averaging less than five innings a start. I'd love to see one of the young guys too, but this maybe isn't the best time to throw somebody out there and see if they float. 

 

How crazy is it that the first three starters the Twins roll out there (Turley, Mejia, Wilk) have a combined 13 career starts? And none of them started a single game last season.

  • howieramone2 likes this

#23 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 18,026 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:57 AM

 

Polanco was already using those options -- he had to be added to the 40-man in November 2013 to protect him from the Rule 5 draft, thus he had to be optioned to be sent to the minors out of spring training in 2014 and 2015 (and 2016) anyway.  Calling him up for a few days in those seasons did nothing to affect his option or contract status (other than give him a couple days service time).

 

Like Randy Rosario this year -- he was already on the 40-man, so the option was already used this spring.  So calling him up and sending him back down later this season was a "free move" as far as options are concerned.

To collate a bunch of posts about my comment, yes and no.

 

Polanco was burning the options anyway but he often came to Minnesota, sat for a few weeks, and then was demoted again. That's not a useful development cycle, especially considering Polanco's age at the time.

 

It's slightly different with Romero because he won't be sitting but I still have some of the same problems with the idea: if a guy isn't ready, he isn't ready. Romero doesn't even have a lot of time at Chattanooga yet, only 12 starts. His numbers look pretty good but aren't eye-popping. He's still only 22 years old.

 

While one or two starts wouldn't likely kill the guy, things have a pretty high probability of getting ugly if he was facing MLB hitters. And while lots of prospects recover quickly and shrug off blatant failure, it can also set a guy back weeks or even months if the outings were truly disastrous.

 

I just don't see enough upside in him starting right now to risk that situation.

  • howieramone2 likes this

#24 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 21,697 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:04 AM

 

Yeah, but he's entirely disposable. Gonsalves is not.

 

If Gonsalves was ready, I don't think we'd be seeing Wilk right now.

 

he's not ready because he's not up? We don't know that. No one knows that. At least he should be in AAA, but this FO isn't promoting anyone right now. 

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#25 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 18,026 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:07 AM

 

he's not ready because he's not up? We don't know that. No one knows that. At least he should be in AAA, but this FO isn't promoting anyone right now. 

It's pretty commonplace under the new draft signing rules to keep your MiLB rosters largely in place until you begin inserting draftees into the system, forcing a bunch of players to slide up a level. I suspect we'll start seeing promotions in the next few weeks.

 

And it's not as if Gonsalves has been destroying Southern League hitting. He had a nice start last night but went only 5.0 innings his previous two starts.


#26 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 11,192 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:17 AM

 

Polanco was burning the options anyway but he often came to Minnesota, sat for a few weeks, and then was demoted again. That's not a useful development cycle, especially considering Polanco's age at the time.

Polanco never came up that long in 2014 or 2015.  He came up 4 separate times those seasons, for the following number of days each:

 

4
2
1
3

 

That's 10 days total over those 2 years.  And he started 4 MLB games during those 10 days too, plus 4 other appearances, so he wasn't completely parked on the bench.

 

April/May 2016 he spent more time on the MLB bench, as did Kepler. But not the previous two seasons.

Edited by spycake, 16 June 2017 - 08:18 AM.

  • Danchat likes this

#27 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 11,192 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:29 AM

 

It's pretty commonplace under the new draft signing rules to keep your MiLB rosters largely in place until you begin inserting draftees into the system, forcing a bunch of players to slide up a level. I suspect we'll start seeing promotions in the next few weeks.

Not about Romero, but --

 

When a certain player gets called out as deserving a promotion, we often hear "the club knows what's best for these guys, maybe there is a specific thing they are working on with a specific coach, etc."

 

But then it seems to apply across the board to everyone, and we hear generically that "the club doesn't move up guys until midseason, after the draft."

 

I believe the former is a pretty rare circumstance, and the latter is the most common case, but it's not a terribly inspiring way to run a club, even acknowledging that a lot of clubs do it.

 

There are basically 8 pitchers at AA who have a good case to get a test at AA, and very few guys at AAA who seem to be earning a spot there, much less deserve any consideration for a MLB spot appearance.  Seems kinda silly to hold every single one of those AA guys back until July, just because of the calendar or because it would require finding some org filler to backfill their vacated spot.

  • Mike Sixel likes this

#28 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,214 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:36 AM

The Twins have mentioned bringing Gonsalves up straight from AA if he was ready, but his late start to the season and now 34 UP after going through 7 last night would seem to be what is slowing him down. I think the Twins really like him and I'm betting he's at Rochester after one more start. From there is anyone's best guess. But I'd be willing to bet we see him in a Twins uniform in September.
  • Mike Sixel likes this

"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

 

--Lou Brown


#29 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 11,192 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:38 AM

 

The Twins have mentioned bringing Gonsalves up straight from AA if he was ready

I feel like this is something they'd say about every player.  "If he was ready" being so subjective as to make it effectively impossible for most guys.

 

I do agree we are likely to see Gonsalves in September, though -- he will require a 40-man spot by November anyway, and he got a late start so innings shouldn't be a concern.

  • Mike Sixel, snepp and rghrbek like this

#30 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 18,026 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:58 AM

 

Polanco never came up that long in 2014 or 2015.  He came up 4 separate times those seasons, for the following number of days each:

 

4
2
1
3

 

That's 10 days total over those 2 years.  And he started 4 MLB games during those 10 days too, plus 4 other appearances, so he wasn't completely parked on the bench.

 

April/May 2016 he spent more time on the MLB bench, as did Kepler. But not the previous two seasons.

Ah, okay. I could have sworn he spent two weeks on the bench the first time he was called up.


#31 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 18,026 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:03 AM

 

Not about Romero, but --

 

When a certain player gets called out as deserving a promotion, we often hear "the club knows what's best for these guys, maybe there is a specific thing they are working on with a specific coach, etc."

 

But then it seems to apply across the board to everyone, and we hear generically that "the club doesn't move up guys until midseason, after the draft."

 

I believe the former is a pretty rare circumstance, and the latter is the most common case, but it's not a terribly inspiring way to run a club, even acknowledging that a lot of clubs do it.

 

There are basically 8 pitchers at AA who have a good case to get a test at AA, and very few guys at AAA who seem to be earning a spot there, much less deserve any consideration for a MLB spot appearance.  Seems kinda silly to hold every single one of those AA guys back until July, just because of the calendar or because it would require finding some org filler to backfill their vacated spot.

I mean, that's fair, but there has to be some kind of opportunity cost at play here as well. You want to keep your MiLB clubs happy so you don't just throw darts at a board when acquiring org filler. Someone has to go out there, dig into the options, and spend the time making it all work.

 

Whereas if you just wait a few weeks, the only thing you need to worry about is who to cut, not who to acquire.

 

In the case of Gonsalves, I think the team might make an exception if he was destroying the league. But really, he's been good and only has six starts on the season. He's not even averaging 6.0 IP per start. He's also returning from injury.

 

Is that a guy you spend energy on to make sure he jumps a level and reorganize some of your MiLB pieces while your entire organization is focused on something much more important (the draft)? I'm not sure it is.

 

As we all know from our daily lives, some things simply don't get done in the here and now due to larger priorities at hand. If Gonsalves was truly forcing the issue, I could see more legitimacy in questioning why he's not in Rochester.

  • Taildragger8791 likes this

#32 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 21,697 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:12 AM

 

I mean, that's fair, but there has to be some kind of opportunity cost at play here as well. You want to keep your MiLB clubs happy so you don't just throw darts at a board when acquiring org filler. Someone has to go out there, dig into the options, and spend the time making it all work.

 

Whereas if you just wait a few weeks, the only thing you need to worry about is who to cut, not who to acquire.

 

In the case of Gonsalves, I think the team might make an exception if he was destroying the league. But really, he's been good and only has six starts on the season. He's not even averaging 6.0 IP per start. He's also returning from injury.

 

Is that a guy you spend energy on to make sure he jumps a level and reorganize some of your MiLB pieces while your entire organization is focused on something much more important (the draft)? I'm not sure it is.

 

As we all know from our daily lives, some things simply don't get done in the here and now due to larger priorities at hand. If Gonsalves was truly forcing the issue, I could see more legitimacy in questioning why he's not in Rochester.

 

Promoting 1 guy means you have to reorganize your minor league system? that's a new one.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#33 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 11,192 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:41 AM

 

I mean, that's fair, but there has to be some kind of opportunity cost at play here as well. You want to keep your MiLB clubs happy so you don't just throw darts at a board when acquiring org filler. Someone has to go out there, dig into the options, and spend the time making it all work.

 

Whereas if you just wait a few weeks, the only thing you need to worry about is who to cut, not who to acquire.

 

In the case of Gonsalves, I think the team might make an exception if he was destroying the league. But really, he's been good and only has six starts on the season. He's not even averaging 6.0 IP per start. He's also returning from injury.

 

Is that a guy you spend energy on to make sure he jumps a level and reorganize some of your MiLB pieces while your entire organization is focused on something much more important (the draft)? I'm not sure it is.

 

As we all know from our daily lives, some things simply don't get done in the here and now due to larger priorities at hand. If Gonsalves was truly forcing the issue, I could see more legitimacy in questioning why he's not in Rochester.

Gonsalves is one guy.  There are 7 others at AA with solid cases for a AAA promotion as well.  And I'm not talking about promoting all of them at once, or even half of them, to the point where affiliates would really notice.  Are you telling me not one of them is worth moving up to AAA before July?

 

As far as replacements, there are several at AAA with solid cases for a demotion to AA. Heck, we just traded Wheeler for cash and cut Chapman, either of those guys could have been assigned to AA instead, if finding replacements was really a concern.

  • Mike Sixel likes this

#34 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 18,026 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:47 AM

 

Promoting 1 guy means you have to reorganize your minor league system? that's a new one.

Are we talking about one guy here? And, be frank here, what has Gonsalves done to warrant a promotion? Before last night, he pitched games of 6.0, 5.0, and 5.0 innings. He has only six starts on the season, including last night.

 

And all of this happened during the middle of the draft, when pretty much everyone involved has other matters on their mind.

 

If Gonsalves spends another month in the minors, I'll be irritated as well. He should get a promotion soon but with everything else going on in this organization, are we really making a fuss about a guy coming back from injury who hasn't been able to average 6.0 IP per start in AA?

  • Taildragger8791 and howieramone2 like this

#35 howieramone2

howieramone2

    Chattanooga Lookouts

  • Members
  • 746 posts
  • LocationMaple Grove/Schaumburg

Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:53 AM

 

Gonsalves is one guy.  There are 7 others at AA with solid cases for a AAA promotion as well.  And I'm not talking about promoting all of them at once, or even half of them, to the point where affiliates would really notice.  Are you telling me not one of them is worth moving up to AAA before July?

 

As far as replacements, there are several at AAA with solid cases for a demotion to AA. Heck, we just traded Wheeler for cash and cut Chapman, either of those guys could have been assigned to AA instead, if finding replacements was really a concern.

If he doesn't I will. Calm down it's 2 weeks.

Some of our members pretend to be smarter than our FO. I pretend they are right.


#36 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Members
  • 21,697 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:57 AM

 

If he doesn't I will. Calm down it's 2 weeks.

 

Well, it wasn't 2 weeks 4 weeks ago.

 

And, if it is only 2 weeks, what are we expecting them to learn in that time?

 

Remember when Berrios wasn't ready, and then he made 1 more start, and all of a sudden he was? That seems, unlikely.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#37 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 11,192 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:58 AM

 

If he doesn't I will. Calm down it's 2 weeks.

July is 2 weeks from today, but the parameters of the situation have been in place for a month-plus already (and some of its ill effects may already be visible at the MLB level).

 

And as baseball discussions go, this one is plenty calm, thanks.

  • Mike Sixel likes this

#38 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 11,192 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:09 AM

Looks like Southern League all-star game is this coming Tuesday June 20.  I guess even the calendar theory should produce some movement very soon.  (Although it would have been nice to give a couple of those guys a better shot at the AAA all-star game in July, or even to help the MLB club by then...)


#39 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 18,026 posts

Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:20 AM

 

July is 2 weeks from today, but the parameters of the situation have been in place for a month-plus already (and some of its ill effects may already be visible at the MLB level).

 

And as baseball discussions go, this one is plenty calm, thanks.

To be clear, my opinions are of Gonsalves and/or Romero, not their plethora of bullpen options.

 

I don't understand what's happening with the bullpen right now.

  • Mike Sixel and diehardtwinsfan like this

#40 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,615 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:51 AM

 

Promoting 1 guy means you have to reorganize your minor league system? that's a new one.

 

It does actually...and your 40 man roster in this scenario.Every guy that goes up means someone below goes up and someone above gets DFAd.These aren't decisions that get made on a whim, and they are often made after the draft/minor league ASB for that reason. 

 

I do not get the consternation about bringing Gonsalves up after a few starts (several of which were not impressive) after being out for a couple months due to injury.He will come up eventually, and a couple more starts until the org is ready for this is hardly going to be detrimental to anything but our patience.

  • Taildragger8791 and howieramone2 like this



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: jose berrios, chris gimenez