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Article: Jose Berrios Flashes Something Special

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#21 KirbyDome89

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:24 PM

 

Santiago had little to do with Berrios, he was in his 7th year, not trying to establish himself after a terrible debut.

The Twins front office rightly gave the veteran more trust in preparation.

It's relevant when they pitch the same amount of innings and we're told one can't be in the rotation because it would take too long to get stretched out. That obviously wasn't the case as Hector had no problem getting ready to start the second game of the season. 

 

If it's familiarity or the need to see him pitch I already pointed out that this is essentially the same FO that has watched Berrios the past few seasons. I've already touched on the ST aspect. 

 

If lack of MLB success/experience was the determining factor then why was Mejia the 5th starter? He had basically no MLB experience and the few innings he threw didn't go well last season. 

 

Obviously I wanted him to start the season with the Twins. It was disappointing that he didn't but I was a little excited to see Mejia as well. Honestly, I don't think Mejia was given enough rope but they made the call to send him down. From that point on, the 4 man rotation and the Tepesch start were just asinine.


#22 KirbyDome89

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:29 PM

 

Santiago pitched in the WBC.Berrios sat on his ass

Check those IPs bud...

 

Santiago 8.2

Berrios 6.2

 

The fact is that at the major league level in 2016, his 8.02 ERA, 1.869 WHIP, 6.20 FIP was below Santana, Gibson, Duffey, Nolasco, Milone, Dean, Santiago, Hughes, and Albers (other than the WHIP on the latter).

 

That would make him their worst pitcher (as far as starters go) in 2016.

 

Dunno what other facts there are, but that's the fact.Potential has nothing to do with performance.

 

Hopefully he got it and will stay at the same level for a decade.Or more.

Tell you, feel free to make a starting 5 out of those guys and I'll take 5 Berrioses..


#23 USAFChief

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:07 PM

I can buy the argument he needed to start the season in Rochester to get some innings.

That needn't have been over a month, though. You don't CHOSE to give a start to Tepesch over Berrios.
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#24 birdwatcher

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:25 PM

 

Santiago had little to do with Berrios, he was in his 7th year, not trying to establish himself after a terrible debut.

The Twins front office rightly gave the veteran more trust in preparation.

 

 

And let's not forget that everyone weighed in. The front office , the MLB staff, all the pitching coaches who worked with Berrios all of last year and saw him briefly this spring. He would have made the roster if all those folks were in favor of it.

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#25 drjim

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 06:16 AM

It's relevant when they pitch the same amount of innings and we're told one can't be in the rotation because it would take too long to get stretched out. That obviously wasn't the case as Hector had no problem getting ready to start the second game of the season.

If it's familiarity or the need to see him pitch I already pointed out that this is essentially the same FO that has watched Berrios the past few seasons. I've already touched on the ST aspect.

If lack of MLB success/experience was the determining factor then why was Mejia the 5th starter? He had basically no MLB experience and the few innings he threw didn't go well last season.

Obviously I wanted him to start the season with the Twins. It was disappointing that he didn't but I was a little excited to see Mejia as well. Honestly, I don't think Mejia was given enough rope but they made the call to send him down. From that point on, the 4 man rotation and the Tepesch start were just asinine.


I think all your points answer themselves.

It's not basically the same front office, Santiago and Berrios have significantly different experience which matters a ton, and Mejia got the call because he was there all spring and did what he had to do.

I imagine Berrios would have had a decent shot to make the opening day rotation once May went down if he had been there all spring and took care of business. He sealed his own fate. Seems to have worked out though.
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#26 Han Joelo

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 06:45 AM

Berrios, like many others before him, looked like he was going into the failed development column last year.

whatever they did, good job.
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#27 mikelink45

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:12 AM

I am just glad Berrios is up.  I would have liked it earlier, but I consider the Twins six weeks to be their real spring training and I am glad we came out with a winning record.  They moved on Gibson and I am pleased they did and maybe he will find some magic with the AAA coaches.  I wanted more from Mejia and hopefully he will be up and good soon.  I do not see Duffey being that good again - even though his debut was spectacular and the May anguish has gone on for three years.  Right now I see Santana, Berrios, Santiago and then I would like to see the same team that pushed out Tonkin and Gibson start down the list and move Hughes to the BP - in fact for those who like Duffey I would trade their spots.

 

But then lets move on the BP and get some more stud arms out there. I listened to the Molitor interview last night and he basically said that Pressly is the only guy with an arm that can get a K and turn the other team.  Why? We have Burdi and Melotakis and others in the minors with live arms.  Molitor basically told the audience that we need some relief pitchers that can blow the other team away. 

So what are we waiting for.  We have made step one and two - lets keep the shuffle going until we end up with what we really want to have going forward. 


#28 Jerr

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:29 AM

I think it's funny how no matter how good a guy (Berrios, in this case) does, posters here always want to say something should have happened earlier...which would have lead to more wins. Who knows, it could have gone the other way......

 

For me? I'm glad he is up and doing well and yeah I wanted him up earlier, BUT I don't look back with regrets on this one. I'M counting days to his next start!!!!

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#29 ThejacKmp

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:35 AM

 

It's relevant when they pitch the same amount of innings and we're told one can't be in the rotation because it would take too long to get stretched out. That obviously wasn't the case as Hector had no problem getting ready to start the second game of the season. 

 

If it's familiarity or the need to see him pitch I already pointed out that this is essentially the same FO that has watched Berrios the past few seasons. I've already touched on the ST aspect. 

 

If lack of MLB success/experience was the determining factor then why was Mejia the 5th starter? He had basically no MLB experience and the few innings he threw didn't go well last season. 

 

Obviously I wanted him to start the season with the Twins. It was disappointing that he didn't but I was a little excited to see Mejia as well. Honestly, I don't think Mejia was given enough rope but they made the call to send him down. From that point on, the 4 man rotation and the Tepesch start were just asinine.

 

You can't compare Santiago and Berrios. For one thing, Santiago pitched well in the WBC and Berrios got lit up. For another, Santiago has been through 8 or 9 spring trainings, he knows how to get his body right. Berrios doesn't. And finally, if Santiago is pushed too hard, the Twins don't care that much, he isn't an integral part of the future like Berrios. 

 

The lack of big league success is not the factor either. Otherwise Vogelsong would have had the job. Mejia's path also isn't the same as Berrios' path. He was there the entire spring and won the job fair and square. He ramped up the way the Twins want a younger guy to do and he really earned that spot. Berrios would have been getting the spot based on reputation and placating fans. No way he should start the season in the rotation. Spring training stats don't matter that much but the spring training process is vital, particularly for young pitchers.

 

I also disagree with the "4 starters is stupid." There's a value to giving guys the ball every 5th day. Yeah you want to sprinkle in some days of extra rest but you also want guys to have a rhythm. You would have gotten less Ervin starts to begin the year, not sure how that would help.

 

The only start that was dumb was the Tepesch one. But even that may not have been that dumb - I'm glad that Berrios got to debut against the Indians on the road instead of the Red Sox at home. That Red Sox lineup is fierce and if Berrios had a hiccup his first time out, I can see not wanting him to get booed by the home fans (if he'd been knocked out early, Twins fans would have booed him). He's young and an emotional guy, they gave him a chance to breath if he had a bad first game. It's not like he has a home in the Twin Cities, he's essentially on the road either way.

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#30 DaveW

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:14 AM

Berrios, like many others before him, looked like he was going into the failed development column last year.


I dunno about that, he looked like a 21 year old who struggled with his first cup of coffee, that is what usually happens with pitchers on all teams.

Aaron Hicks 2017 stats so far (5/17/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS  7 HR 19 RBI 6 SB 22 BBs 1.8WAR
 


#31 Han Joelo

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:58 AM

I dunno about that, he looked like a 21 year old who struggled with his first cup of coffee, that is what usually happens with pitchers on all teams.


I actually agree. I was just trying to make an argument that throwing him repeatedly in the fire last year didn't work, and the Twins wisely corrected course and held him back a little this spring. Good for them. I'm happy. If the Twins miss the playoffs by that Tepesch debacle, I'll still be happy.

Edited by Han Joelo, 20 May 2017 - 09:02 AM.

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#32 Ebby Calvin Laloosh

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:05 AM

Man, lots of negativity and second guessing the FO, which is kind of fun, I admit. But did anyone watch JO pitch? Filthy! Jose Fernandez comparisons, nasty nasty stuff and 11Ks. Pretty fun to watch. I know I betray my Minnesota fandom roots by getting excited rather than just waiting for the wheels to come off, but I enjoyed watching one of our young starters pitch. When was the last time that happened? Duff man? Maybe May a little? It's been a while since anyone looked like Jose. If he can show a little consistency I might just freak right out.  

 

Here's to another 190 Ks for the kid!

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#33 KirbyDome89

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 11:37 AM

 

I think all your points answer themselves.

It's not basically the same front office, Santiago and Berrios have significantly different experience which matters a ton, and Mejia got the call because he was there all spring and did what he had to do.

I imagine Berrios would have had a decent shot to make the opening day rotation once May went down if he had been there all spring and took care of business. He sealed his own fate. Seems to have worked out though.

There isn't an answer for those points other than the Twins for some reason weren't keen on having one of their better pitchers in the rotation....

 

This organization is almost the exact same as it was the past 6 seasons.

 

"He sealed his own fate. Seems to have worked out though."

 

That says it all. The minute he was sent down any success he would have when he came back would automatically be attributed to going back to AAA. I can't say he would've started the year this well, I said in other threads the only way to know he was ready was to let him pitch for the Twins. In the same way, neither can you nor anybody else make the claim that the extra month + of minor league pitching flipped the switch, yet it's consistently being lauded on these forums as "the right move," and "the right time." 

Edited by KirbyDome89, 20 May 2017 - 12:09 PM.


#34 drjim

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 11:45 AM

There isn't an answer for those points other than the Twins for some reason weren't keen on having one of their better pitchers in the rotation....

This organization is almost the exact same as it was the past 6 seasons.

"He sealed his own fate. Seems to have worked out though."

That says it all right. The minute he was sent down any success he would have when he came back would automatically be attributed to going back to AAA. I can't say he would've started the year this well, I said in other threads the only way to know he was ready was to let him pitch for the Twins. In the same way, neither can you nor anybody else make the claim that the extra month + of minor league pitching flipped the switch, yet it's consistently being lauded on these forums as "the right move," and "the right time."


I would have liked him up a little earlier, but strongly believe having him in the rotation on opening day would have set him up for failure. I'm more accepting of a conservative route over aggression here, considering his flop last year.
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#35 Minfidel

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 11:56 AM

I haven't seen Twins opponents so frustrated at the plate since Francisco "F-bomb" Liriano was dealing that slider, pre-TJ. 

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#36 KirbyDome89

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:01 PM

 

You can't compare Santiago and Berrios. For one thing, Santiago pitched well in the WBC and Berrios got lit up. For another, Santiago has been through 8 or 9 spring trainings, he knows how to get his body right. Berrios doesn't. And finally, if Santiago is pushed too hard, the Twins don't care that much, he isn't an integral part of the future like Berrios. 

 

The lack of big league success is not the factor either. Otherwise Vogelsong would have had the job. Mejia's path also isn't the same as Berrios' path. He was there the entire spring and won the job fair and square. He ramped up the way the Twins want a younger guy to do and he really earned that spot. Berrios would have been getting the spot based on reputation and placating fans. No way he should start the season in the rotation. Spring training stats don't matter that much but the spring training process is vital, particularly for young pitchers.

 

I also disagree with the "4 starters is stupid." There's a value to giving guys the ball every 5th day. Yeah you want to sprinkle in some days of extra rest but you also want guys to have a rhythm. You would have gotten less Ervin starts to begin the year, not sure how that would help.

 

The only start that was dumb was the Tepesch one. But even that may not have been that dumb - I'm glad that Berrios got to debut against the Indians on the road instead of the Red Sox at home. That Red Sox lineup is fierce and if Berrios had a hiccup his first time out, I can see not wanting him to get booed by the home fans (if he'd been knocked out early, Twins fans would have booed him). He's young and an emotional guy, they gave him a chance to breath if he had a bad first game. It's not like he has a home in the Twin Cities, he's essentially on the road either way.

Its an easy comparison when they threw the same amount of innings for the same team in the same tournament. Berrios has been a professional athlete for years now, he knows how to get his body ready. Check out some of his workout clips on twitter...

 

I thought we were past winning spots in ST. Players are given positions based on "reputation," and expectations all the time. The 2017 Twins were no different. If the process was really that important they would've had Park on the bench as a 1B/DH instead of Sano and Gimenez giving Mauer time off at 1B.

 

Its a 162 game season, they should be taking rest days where they can get them.

 

Last I checked Cleveland is a pretty damn good team. You're reaching at this point.  


#37 KirbyDome89

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:08 PM

 

I would have liked him up a little earlier, but strongly believe having him in the rotation on opening day would have set him up for failure. I'm more accepting of a conservative route over aggression here, considering his flop last year.

Meh, I think he would've been fine coming in after the offseason but we'll never know.


#38 chpettit19

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 01:15 PM

1. It being "basically the same front office" is techinically pretty accurate, but in practice it coudn't be further from the truth. The guys leading the front office are very different and are giving different directions to the people under them and are looking for different things when determining what players to have at what levels. Not to mention Falvey is known for the work he did with the pitcher development program with the Indians, and it seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

 

2. There's a huge difference between a MLB veteran (Santiago) going through spring training and the start of the season and a guy who had a cup of coffee the year before (and got absolutely rocked in the short stint). The veteran's confidence isn't going to be hurt be a slow start to the season. Berrios getting rocked again would have worn on him and possibly broken his confidence for a long time. It's a lot like the mistake Mollie made putting Buxton in the 3 hole for absolutely no reason. Too much pressure on a young guy who had no track record of MLB success to fall back on confidence wise when he struggled again. They aren't robots or just numbers put into a system. They're people and these things matter.

 

3. As I've said on other threads, the struggles Berrios had last year were mechanical/skill things that he could work on in AAA. Him striking out a ton of guys in the minors because he simply has filthy stuff doesn't mean he's going to succeed at the major league level. Buxton was up despite his history of struggles because his problems are mental and his inability to handle major league pitcher's control of their breaking pitches and the sequencing of their pitches. Berrios starting in the minors to show that he had corralled his arsenal and could pitch to the corners and not just rear back and throw is the smart move. The minors are there for exactly this reason. Give young guys the chance to work on their skills and refine their mechanics.

 

4. I would've liked to see him earlier because I'm a fan and I have the luxury of living off hope that he will perform as we've all been told he has the ability to. The front office doesn't have that luxury. They don't get to come in and say "hey we hear this kid is going to be great so we should just throw him in and watch him be great." He got shelled last year. In every start but 1. He showed almost no glimpses of being MLB ready last year. Filthy stuff with no idea where it's going ever. The claim that he was "one of their best pitchers" is purely prospect love. He hadn't showed anything last year or this spring for that claim to be based in anything other than pure hope that he turns into what we want him to. The idea thrown around on these threads that the Twins should just be randomly calling up prospects to "see what they have" is absolutely ridiculous. I didn't have much faith in the previous front office regime, but calling guys up just because they throw hard, or are supposed to be good, or have stolen a bunch of bases, or are hitting for a high average in the minors is not how you run a major league organization. Analytics are great and I'm glad we finally have people in MN who are going to use that info, but simply looking at a spreadsheet full of numbers and saying "he has nice numbers on this screen so lets call him up" would be disastrous. Internal scouting and seeing how they are getting the numbers they're getting is vital. Simply being more physically talented than minor league players doesn't mean you'll automatically succeed in the bigs. There's so much more to it than that. Good (even great) minor league numbers don't mean you'll have even average numbers at the next level up. Go look at the leader boards for the minors and see how many guys you've never heard of put up some good numbers.

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#39 ThejacKmp

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 03:46 PM

 

Its an easy comparison when they threw the same amount of innings for the same team in the same tournament. Berrios has been a professional athlete for years now, he knows how to get his body ready. Check out some of his workout clips on twitter...

 

I thought we were past winning spots in ST. Players are given positions based on "reputation," and expectations all the time. The 2017 Twins were no different. If the process was really that important they would've had Park on the bench as a 1B/DH instead of Sano and Gimenez giving Mauer time off at 1B.

 

Its a 162 game season, they should be taking rest days where they can get them.

 

Last I checked Cleveland is a pretty damn good team. You're reaching at this point.  

 

No. A minor league season is not the same as a major league season. It's longer and more strenuous. There's more media attention. The Twins were absolutely right to want Berrios to hit the ground running and to think that some time in AAA might make that easier. 

 

No one is past that. Everyone was down on Park until he had a hot spring and now he's a TD darling. Spring training doesn't decide things but it does matter. The stats just aren't the thing that does it -- it matters what coaches and front office personnel see. I trust them more than your hindsight.

 

So should they go to a six man rotation? Seven? That would create more rest days. 

 

A good team but not the offensive powerhouse that Boston is. Cleveland was scuffling and again, the road vs. home thing works for Berrios in that situation. Get some confidence going and avoid a home booing.

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#40 mikelink45

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 04:57 PM

For those who think Buxton should be the phenom and not Berrios, I think this baseball prospectus article about Aaron Hicks - yes we gave up on him - puts things in persective - http://www.baseballp...articleid=31873

 

Berrios had his ups and downs like Buxton and now has it together.  I believe he is an example for Buxton. 




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